LD Train Travel Then vs now

[railiner]

Also, its currently 26 hours to ABQ right now. I don't see that a great "distance" of regression. Especially since the Chief was operated at a speed that is now considered to be unsafe.

Time to LAX is now 43 hours and was 37 hours so we are definitley going backwards. As for speeds I can't find info on too many Super Chief wrecks due to speed in that era. I beleive that it went along at 70 mph which should be close to what it travels at today.

Another thing to take into account is the three places that today's Chief runs that are different form the Super. First, Los Angeles to San Bernardino via Fullerton instead of Pasadena, next Newton to Kansas City via Topeka instead of Ottawa, and finally, Galesburg to Chicago via Naperville instead of Joliet. (That last reroute actually should speed up the trip).

 

[jis]

The New York Central had a speed limit of 85 mph for most of the route used by the Lakeshore Limited. The Twentieth Century maintained its schedule by having almost no stops, and of course being given absolute priority. The speed limit is now 79 mph. In addition, up until the 1950's the line had four main tracks throughout, two for passenger trains and two for freight trains. Beginning sometime during the 50's the outside track were taken up piece by piece.

Another thing to consider is that almost uniformly super-elevation on curves have been reduced, thus reducing the speed limits on the curves, which are things that cost the most (way more than reduction of top speed by 20 mph from say a top speed of 90 or 100 mph) in terms of added running time over a segment.

 

[railiner]

And it seems that servicing the train enroute takes longer now than before, perhaps due to smaller forces employed for that purpose?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Track speeds:

I collect old employee timetables, and also have some information of more recent vintage. (3 to 4 years ago, quite a few employee timetables were available on a public web site if you knew where to look.)

One thing that is very important in understanding railroad speed limits: Just because a line has a speed limit of 79 mph, 90 mph, or whatever, does not mean that the train pulls out of the station, gets up to full speed, and stays there until it slows to a stop. Most lines will have numerous curves restricted to lower speeds than the line speed. There will be junction areas, crossovers, end of sidings, etc., with much lower speeds, commonly 25 mph or less.

There was also the factor that premier passenger trains were always operated by engineers that were at the very top of the seniority roster. These men, and they were always men at that time, knew their territory like the back of their hand so they knew how fast they could safely go an all points on their territory, regardless of the numbers in the timetable or posted along the track. Thus, if behind schedule, as a matter of pride, both theirs and the company's they would fudge the speeds as far as they dared to get the train back on time.

The first 100 mph allowable speeds go back to the 1930's with steam. The Milwaukee Road between Chicago and Minneapolis had this limit over a considerable part of the distance, and the line was mostly double track as well. This is the route used by the EB today. The line is mostly single track with a speed limit of 70 mph.

The Santa Fe was also early into the 100 mph speed limit game. Don't when it began, but list of allowed speeds for steam engiens by engine number could be found in employee timetables. There was both a 100 mph list and a 90 mph list. (Slower speeds also.) Much of the route used by the Southwest Chief permitted 100 mph though at least early 1960's.

The Union Pacific line across Nebraska and Wyoming allowed 90 mph all the way up to and including early Amtrak.

There were numerous other lines with 90 mph or 100 mph speed limits, as well. Many of these higher speed limits went down with the advent of the ICC (predecessor to the FRA) rule that required very specific minimum additions to the signals to run "80 mph or faster" and the most basic form of signals to be in place to run "60 mph or faster" These regulations are the father of the common 79 mph speed limit, and on some lines, such as the trains in Vermont and the Flomaton FL to Tallahassee FL secton of the Sunset-East route, their 59 mph speed limit.

Some specifics: In the northeast: Most of the Northeast Corridor had a speed limit of 80 mph during Pennsylvania Railroad days. This is now of course 110 mph and higher.

The New York Central had a speed limit of 85 mph for most of the route used by the Lakeshore Limited. The Twentieth Century maintained its schedule by having almost no stops, and of course being given absolute priority. The speed limit is now 79 mph. In addition, up until the 1950's the line had four main tracks throughout, two for passenger trains and two for freight trains. Beginning sometime during the 50's the outside track were taken up piece by piece.

I think the Pennsy limited their speeds to 80 mph. The Broadway Limited matched the 20th Century in time by having a route some 50 miles shorter, and again, being givven absolute priority. They also had four main track out of the east to at least as far as Pittsburg.

The Atlantic Coast Line allowed 100 mph on lengthy segments of their mostly double track main line between Richmond VA and Jacksonville FL. This was still at 90 mph into the early to mid 1960's. It is now 79 mph and most of the second main is gone.

When I see the current day City of New Orleans, I do not even want to think about it. Into the early 1960's both it and the overnight Panama Limited could be depended upon to make it between Chicago and New Orleans in 16 1/2 hours. There was a lengthy section in Illinois that permitted 100 mph, and most of the rest of the route was nominally 79 mph, which was usually observed only if the train was on time. Now it is all 79 mph or less, and the direct passenger route between Memphis and Jackson MS is no longer in use, and maybe not all still in place.

Some routes, such as the route used by the Texas Eagle between St. Louis and Poplar Bluff MO is lmited to 60 mph, but has never been faster.

George, you know how I start babbling and foaming whenever I think of the good old Nashville,Chattanooga and St Louis (later taken over by Louisville and Nashville). I know the terraine was rugged in places and the official mph not very high.

But I have some stories to tell.

Once I witnessed the northbound Dixieland(former Dixie Flagler) arrive Chattanooga 20 minutes early from Atlanta. Once my sister and I were on the Dixieland when it made up 20 minutes from Nashville into Chattanooga. And my sister claims she was on the Georgian once when it made up 20 minutes from Atlanta into Chattanooga. Further my grandfather recalled overhearing some crew saying their train, the Dixie Flyer, had just been running 90 mph. This would have been some place east of Tullahoma.

Best of all, though,is an old article in Trains Magazine. Tells of an old engineer just as you describe. Seems one morning the Dixie Flagler had to make an unscheduled stop in Cowan, TN., for mechanical problems. Problem got fixed, left Cowan 24 minutes late per employee timetable and arrived Nashville on time to the minute. To do this it made some gallops of 100 mph. And this under steam.

Of course that is the more direct part of the route.

BTW let me clarify for folks not familiar with such long ago operations,there was very little padding in the specific schedules I am referencing. There was some, at some places and in some trains but not like it sometimes is today.

 

[zephyr17]

That upscale dining room on the Super Chief is really impressive. Its must have cost a small fortune to dine in that car.

The way I understood it, the Turqoise Room was up for reservation by private parties for dinners, parties, or other functions. When not used for those purposes, it could be used either as additional lounge space, or could serve as 'overflow' seating for the adjacent dining car, which on the Santa Fe usually only seated 36 in spacious 4 and 2 tables. So there was not much tax on the kitchen to serve these extra tables.

I don't see any indication of any extra charge to dine in that room, so it was no more 'upscale' than the regular dining car.

Having ridden on the Super Chief, I can say that the Turquoise Room served the same menu as the dining car, including the Champagne Dinner. They were served out of the same kitchen (in the dining car), with the Turquoise Room end of the of the Pleasure Dome lounge car coupled to the diner.

The prices were what you'd see in a nice restaurant of the time, which it very much was. It was not out of line.

 

[George Harris]

George, you know how I start babbling and foaming whenever I think of the good old Nashville,Chattanooga and St Louis (later taken over by Louisville and Nashville). I know the terraine was rugged in places and the official mph not very high.

But I have some stories to tell.

Once I witnessed the northbound Dixieland(former Dixie Flagler) arrive Chattanooga 20 minutes early from Atlanta. Once my sister and I were on the Dixieland when it made up 20 minutes from Nashville into Chattanooga. And my sister claims she was on the Georgian once when it made up 20 minutes from Atlanta into Chattanooga. Further my grandfather recalled overhearing some crew saying their train, the Dixie Flyer, had just been running 90 mph. This would have been some place east of Tullahoma.

Best of all, though,is an old article in Trains Magazine. Tells of an old engineer just as you describe. Seems one morning the Dixie Flagler had to make an unscheduled stop in Cowan, TN., for mechanical problems. Problem got fixed, left Cowan 24 minutes late per employee timetable and arrived Nashville on time to the minute. To do this it made some gallops of 100 mph. And this under steam.

Of course that is the more direct part of the route.

BTW let me clarify for folks not familiar with such long ago operations,there was very little padding in the specific schedules I am referencing. There was some, at some places and in some trains but not like it sometimes is today.

Bill: In general padding such as it was, was usually in the range of 10 to 15 minutes into major cities or division points.

The NC&StL: In many ways my favorite road and the first passenger train I ever road. Just before my 5th birthday, we took the City of Memphis from Memphis to Jackson, Tenn. - behind steam. Sadly, not only is the train long gone, so is the track.

From information I have, the speed limits on the old NC were 60 mph Memphis to Nashville, 70 mph Nashville to Chattanooga, and 60 mph Chattanooga to Atlanta. The last 36 miles into Atlanta were 45 mph or less due to the multitudinous curves.

The NC did quite a bit to get rid of the less than 60 mph curves between Memphis and Bruceton in the immediate post WW2 era. Unfortunately, the passenger traffic on this line all but dissapeared by the mid 1950's with the City of Memphis running its last years with only one coach. Note that it was not for lack of trying on the part of the NC&StL. They did all thier finances allowed.

For the Dixieland, and the Georgian as well: There were several opportunites to pick up time on the schedule by ignoring the speed limits without compromising safety nor too much in the way of comfort. Nashville to Tullahoma was fairly straight. South of Chattanooga, there are also some fairly straight areas between Cartersville GA and about Dalotn GA. It was well known that trains could put away quite a bit of the 32 mile distance between Myrfreesboro and Nashville at 90 to 100 mph despite the 70 mph maximum. It should also be noted that it was generally appreciated by most of the passengers at the time that the effort was made to get back on schedule and a little more excitement in the ride was an accepted part of that happening.

 

[Pastor Dave]

Let me ask a question of some of my seniors (I'm 53). Did you feel more "pampered" on some of the trains of the 50's and 60's than you do now?

 

[MrFSS]

Let me ask a question of some of my seniors (I'm 53). Did you feel more "pampered" on some of the trains of the 50's and 60's than you do now?

YES! - both as a child riding with my parents and when I was in the military and rode alone as an adult. One of the greatest, most memorable trips was on the City of Denver from Denver to Chicago. Diner in the Dome Dinner, great coach seats and a train staff that really took care of you.

 

[Pastor Dave]

Let me ask a question of some of my seniors (I'm 53). Did you feel more "pampered" on some of the trains of the 50's and 60's than you do now?

YES! - both as a child riding with my parents and when I was in the military and rode alone as an adult. One of the greatest, most memorable trips was on the City of Denver from Denver to Chicago. Diner in the Dome Dinner, great coach seats and a train staff that really took care of you.

Can you share some more of those memories? I grew up in an Amtrak world and had to take what I could get. Don't mean to wax nostalgia, but some of the stories of the past are really great.

 

[Greg]

The mattresses! the mattresses were softer and thicker back in the day than they are now and somehow felt more luxurious. I wish today's mattresses were softer but nevertheless I'm always glad to be on one of them every chance I can get!

 

[had8ley]

Let me ask a question of some of my seniors (I'm 53). Did you feel more "pampered" on some of the trains of the 50's and 60's than you do now?

What a loaded question...I remember a Parlor Room Buffet Lounge Parlor car porter on the Merchants Limited (first section at Thanksgiving) squeezing me a fresh orangeade for 15 cents. My grandfather gave me a quarter and told me to tell the porter to keep the change. Can you imagine the looks a dime tip would gather today ? Sure made me feel special.

 

[Steve4031]

I looked at the Lsl schedule and saw 2 hours plus dwell time in tol, clev, buffalo and Albany-rensselear. Not counting dwell time I believe Lsl takes about 17 hrs plus to travel from chi to nyc.

 

[pennyk]

My first train trip was in the mid 1960's. It was my 8th grade school trip from Miami to Washington DC over spring break. I believe it was the Atlantic Coast Line and have no idea what the name of the train was, however, I know that Bill will know. As an 8th grader without a parent, I had a wonderful time. The one negative I remembered was the food. I think they fed us powdered eggs for breakfast (or maybe it just seemed like it). I remembered the food smell permeating the train and it was not pleasant. I also remember it being very cold in WAS and we Miami girls were not used to that weather.

In college, I traveled Amtrak (early 70's) from Waldo to Fayetteville (changing trains in JAX). I was a smoker at the time and was very pleased that the "women's lounge" had a couch and plenty of space for us smokers to hand out. We were not treated like second class citizens. Now that I am a non smoker, I am very happy that smoking is not allowed on trains.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

George, you know how I start babbling and foaming whenever I think of the good old Nashville,Chattanooga and St Louis (later taken over by Louisville and Nashville). I know the terraine was rugged in places and the official mph not very high.

But I have some stories to tell.

Once I witnessed the northbound Dixieland(former Dixie Flagler) arrive Chattanooga 20 minutes early from Atlanta. Once my sister and I were on the Dixieland when it made up 20 minutes from Nashville into Chattanooga. And my sister claims she was on the Georgian once when it made up 20 minutes from Atlanta into Chattanooga. Further my grandfather recalled overhearing some crew saying their train, the Dixie Flyer, had just been running 90 mph. This would have been some place east of Tullahoma.

Best of all, though,is an old article in Trains Magazine. Tells of an old engineer just as you describe. Seems one morning the Dixie Flagler had to make an unscheduled stop in Cowan, TN., for mechanical problems. Problem got fixed, left Cowan 24 minutes late per employee timetable and arrived Nashville on time to the minute. To do this it made some gallops of 100 mph. And this under steam.

Of course that is the more direct part of the route.

BTW let me clarify for folks not familiar with such long ago operations,there was very little padding in the specific schedules I am referencing. There was some, at some places and in some trains but not like it sometimes is today.

Bill: In general padding such as it was, was usually in the range of 10 to 15 minutes into major cities or division points.

The NC&StL: In many ways my favorite road and the first passenger train I ever road. Just before my 5th birthday, we took the City of Memphis from Memphis to Jackson, Tenn. - behind steam. Sadly, not only is the train long gone, so is the track.

From information I have, the speed limits on the old NC were 60 mph Memphis to Nashville, 70 mph Nashville to Chattanooga, and 60 mph Chattanooga to Atlanta. The last 36 miles into Atlanta were 45 mph or less due to the multitudinous curves.

The NC did quite a bit to get rid of the less than 60 mph curves between Memphis and Bruceton in the immediate post WW2 era. Unfortunately, the passenger traffic on this line all but dissapeared by the mid 1950's with the City of Memphis running its last years with only one coach. Note that it was not for lack of trying on the part of the NC&StL. They did all thier finances allowed.

For the Dixieland, and the Georgian as well: There were several opportunites to pick up time on the schedule by ignoring the speed limits without compromising safety nor too much in the way of comfort. Nashville to Tullahoma was fairly straight. South of Chattanooga, there are also some fairly straight areas between Cartersville GA and about Dalotn GA. It was well known that trains could put away quite a bit of the 32 mile distance between Myrfreesboro and Nashville at 90 to 100 mph despite the 70 mph maximum. It should also be noted that it was generally appreciated by most of the passengers at the time that the effort was made to get back on schedule and a little more excitement in the ride was an accepted part of that happening.

Enjoyed your response George. Your last paragraph merges well with my memories.

That time I saw the Dixieland (former Dixie Flagler) arrive 20 minutes early Chattanooga from Atlanta was deliberate, I am sure. Why? Well, mother and I were traveling from Chattanooga to Evansville. The train was due to stay in Chattanooga from 7.40 am to 7.50.Instead it arrived at 7.20 am.

Why? Because the southbound Georgian was running uncharacteristically late. (for that time).The Georgian,due at 5.25, instead arrived about 7.25 to 7.35 or so. See? By rushing the Dixieland to get in early, it could and did, park off to the side out of the way on track 5. Allowing the tardy Georgian to rush on in on track 6, get its business done and off to Atlanta.

Thus, each train was kept out of the way of the other. Had the Dixieland not run like a bat out of hell and arrived on time instead of early it would have just screwed both trains up.They would be trying to arrive at the same time. Had the southbound Georgian been on time at 5.30 the Dixieland would probably arrived Chattanooga a more relaxed 7.35 or so.

Now that is mighty find railroading in my book!!! Even if the pancakes were thrown to the ceiling in each train's diner.

 

[railiner]

Having grown up in New York City, I used to ride subways all the time. My family all lived fairly close back then, so we had no need for extensive travel for visiting.

Vacations were all motor trips within a hundred mile or so radius usually. So I had little exposure to 'real' railway travel.

I did get a brief glimpse when meeting family visiting from Massachusetts at Grand Central Terminal. And when taking our grandfather to Penn Station, on his winter vacation in Florida. What wonderful temples of transportation those were.

My first solo long distance travel was by bus when I was 8 and then 12 years old (those were different times). Main reason was that it was a one-seat ride between New York and Worcester, Ma. Train would have required a change in either Springfield or New London.

Fast forward to 1966. After having flown in to Chanute AFB at Rantoul, Il, and spent a couple of weeks at Tech School, it was time for first weekend pass. Since I was familiar with bus travel, I selected Greyhound as my ride to Chicago. I boarded the old Scenicruiser, and it was a local, taking 4 hours and 20 minutes to reach the underground Loop terminal. The next time I went with some buddies, who insisted we ride the train. The Illinois Central Louisiane, an all day local picked us up on time at 4:12 PM. I settled into my seat. I was reading some literature, and turned to my companion asking when we were leaving. He looked at me quizzically and pointed toward the window. I looked out and couldn't believe what I was seeing--we were rolling along at about 30mph and accelerating. The start was so smooth and imperceptible as compared to the subway trains I was used to that I didn't even feel it. We were soon rolling along the Mainline of Mid-America at about 90mph. Just as smooth as the starts, were the station stops at Paxton, Kankakee, and Homewood. We rolled into the lakefront Central Station in a bit over two hours. Train was used from then on.

Around four years later, a friend introduced me to railfanning and luxury rail travel. We had flown to Chicago on a TWA 707, and boarded the combined Burlington Afternoon Twin Cities Zephyr/Great Northern Empire Builder/Northern Pacific North Coast Limited. What an impressive train with leg-rest chair cars, Pullman sleepers, slumbercoaches, dining cars, coffee shops, lounge cars, and domes, domes, domes galore. Vista Domes, Great Domes, Lounge in the Sky.....everything! We took that train to Minneapolis, took a Jefferson PD4903 bus down to Osceola, and caught the California Zephyr back to Chicago. We then flew home on a UAL DC-8-61.

That trip really got me hooked.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Having grown up in New York City, I used to ride subways all the time. My family all lived fairly close back then, so we had no need for extensive travel for visiting.

Vacations were all motor trips within a hundred mile or so radius usually. So I had little exposure to 'real' railway travel.

I did get a brief glimpse when meeting family visiting from Massachusetts at Grand Central Terminal. And when taking our grandfather to Penn Station, on his winter vacation in Florida. What wonderful temples of transportation those were.

My first solo long distance travel was by bus when I was 8 and then 12 years old (those were different times). Main reason was that it was a one-seat ride between New York and Worcester, Ma. Train would have required a change in either Springfield or New London.

Fast forward to 1966. After having flown in to Chanute AFB at Rantoul, Il, and spent a couple of weeks at Tech School, it was time for first weekend pass. Since I was familiar with bus travel, I selected Greyhound as my ride to Chicago. I boarded the old Scenicruiser, and it was a local, taking 4 hours and 20 minutes to reach the underground Loop terminal. The next time I went with some buddies, who insisted we ride the train. The Illinois Central Louisiane, an all day local picked us up on time at 4:12 PM. I settled into my seat. I was reading some literature, and turned to my companion asking when we were leaving. He looked at me quizzically and pointed toward the window. I looked out and couldn't believe what I was seeing--we were rolling along at about 30mph and accelerating. The start was so smooth and imperceptible as compared to the subway trains I was used to that I didn't even feel it. We were soon rolling along the Mainline of Mid-America at about 90mph. Just as smooth as the starts, were the station stops at Paxton, Kankakee, and Homewood. We rolled into the lakefront Central Station in a bit over two hours. Train was used from then on.

Around four years later, a friend introduced me to railfanning and luxury rail travel. We had flown to Chicago on a TWA 707, and boarded the combined Burlington Afternoon Twin Cities Zephyr/Great Northern Empire Builder/Northern Pacific North Coast Limited. What an impressive train with leg-rest chair cars, Pullman sleepers, slumbercoaches, dining cars, coffee shops, lounge cars, and domes, domes, domes galore. Vista Domes, Great Domes, Lounge in the Sky.....everything! We took that train to Minneapolis, took a Jefferson PD4903 bus down to Osceola, and caught the California Zephyr back to Chicago. We then flew home on a UAL DC-8-61.

That trip really got me hooked.

Fascinating consist you describe. You mention the sceniccruiser. A lot of people probably do not know about that, it was a bus with about the last two thirds of it were on a higher level. I always thought it was the bus attempting to compete with railroad dome cars.

 

[dlagrua]

I guess that I was born 30 years too late as I would have loved to experience the great hotels on the rails that ran back then. Today at least we have something to enjoy. It dosn't offer quite the same amenities nor is it as luxurious but at least the sleepers have retained a similar look and we now have showers aboard. The Golden Days of Railroading are gone but the remnents of what was once the worlds greatest passenger railroad system still give you a feel of what it was like. It is likely that passenger rail will continue to grow (gas is already over $3 per gallon)and who knows what the future will hold. If passenger rail can continue to grow at only 5% per year then there is a bright future for it.

Meanwhile we take it, we enjoy it and we support it.

 

[jis]

Fascinating consist you describe. You mention the sceniccruiser. A lot of people probably do not know about that, it was a bus with about the last two thirds of it were on a higher level. I always thought it was the bus attempting to compete with railroad dome cars.

Initially when introduced they were branded Scenicruisers. They had significant structural problems, which were fixed, and the fixed upgraded ones were rebranded as "Super Scenicruiser".

I remember riding one of these from Boston to Niagara Falls and back in 1965.

 

[jis]

I wish we could get

on trains someday. It is pretty much like a small semi private space which can be configured from upright sitting to flat bed, and every position in between, without getting off the seat. Very cool and comfortable for a 15 hour flight, as I did from Delhi to Newark nonstop a week back.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I guess that I was born 30 years too late as I would have loved to experience the great hotels on the rails that ran back then. Today at least we have something to enjoy. It dosn't offer quite the same amenities nor is it as luxurious but at least the sleepers have retained a similar look and we now have showers aboard. The Golden Days of Railroading are gone but the remnents of what was once the worlds greatest passenger railroad system still give you a feel of what it was like. It is likely that passenger rail will continue to grow (gas is already over $3 per gallon)and who knows what the future will hold. If passenger rail can continue to grow at only 5% per year then there is a bright future for it.

Meanwhile we take it, we enjoy it and we support it.

But as for being "30 years too late", keep in mind we still have The Canadian.

 

[palmland]

I do remember those Scenic Cruiser buses. In the 60's I used to take them from Richmond, Va where I was in college over to Charlottesville or Lynchburg for rides on the Pelican or Birmingham special. Those trains were heavyweight classics, although the Pullman was usually a streamlined Southern 10=6. Great meals (and cold beer) in the diner/lounge. On another trip I rode Trailways from a summer job in SC to Chattanooga to catch the Georgian to Nashville when my brother was in Vandy. The Georgian in mid 60's was still a great train with a long string of coaches and of course with several Pullmans from Atlanta to Chicago and St. Louis.

 

[had8ley]

I wish we could get

Yeah you're right Jis. Domestic first class in this country is getting to be very similar to coach on Amtrak~ no perks; just sit and we'll let you know when we get there !

 

[dlagrua]

I wish we could get

Yes but they don't offer roomettes or bedrooms on airplanes. While the airlines get more cramped the trains still offer the same roominess as they always did.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I do remember those Scenic Cruiser buses. In the 60's I used to take them from Richmond, Va where I was in college over to Charlottesville or Lynchburg for rides on the Pelican or Birmingham special. Those trains were heavyweight classics, although the Pullman was usually a streamlined Southern 10=6. Great meals (and cold beer) in the diner/lounge. On another trip I rode Trailways from a summer job in SC to Chattanooga to catch the Georgian to Nashville when my brother was in Vandy. The Georgian in mid 60's was still a great train with a long string of coaches and of course with several Pullmans from Atlanta to Chicago and St. Louis.

My kind of memories, Palmland. And while you were boarding the Georgian, I may have been walking down the platform looking at it!!

About those streamlined Southern 10-6's, yes by that time that is what they were. But before then they were Pennsy red Norfolk and Western streamlined sleepers, of the same kind you might have seen on the Pocahontas and the Cavalier.

 

[jis]

Yes but they don't offer roomettes or bedrooms on airplanes. While the airlines get more cramped the trains still offer the same roominess as they always did.

It all depends on how much money you are willing to spend. See what the

looks like. It is a little beyond my financial reach though, unlike the Continental Business-First horizontal lie-flat seats.
Airlines are getting cramped in steerage, but things are actually improving overall up front. And things are getting cramped in the back because of pressures to provide low cost accommodation. So the customers are getting exactly what they really want, as evidenced by their buying behavior, which is a cheap ticket, whatever it takes. But for those that are willing to pay for service and luxury, there is considerable amount of choice available.

BTW, most of the money making high speed trains in Europe or Japan aren't exactly as spacious as the hugely money losing train operations in the US either. The seat pitch, size and comfort in a Eurostar Standard Class or on a Shinkansen Regular Class are not particularly better than on BA World Traveler Class or JAL Economy.