Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement discussion (2022 - 2024Q1)

[Paniolo Man]

One thing dawned on me yesterday. Amtrak should buy only single level cars going forward. This is because there are many corridor stations that can be easily upgraded to high level platforms because the don't see freight trains (also, the venture cars have gap fillers, so it will now be possible to build high level platforms without gauntlet tracks), such as St Louis Gateway. However, these stations also serve as stops for superliner trains, so high platforms aren't possible. If Amtrak buys standard single level high floor equipment, this leaves open the possibility for raising the platform hight for many stations.

This will be a recurring point of contention here, and everywhere else for the foreseeable future.

I'll give my two cents again: Amtrak will not stray from the status quo. Single level equipment will alter the structure of trains too much. They'd have to lengthen countless platforms, change train layouts, and likely deal with longer, heavier trains. Personally, I think raising platforms for level boarding should be in the cards, but that'll be easier with lower boarding bi-levels. Plenty of stations around me (Green River, Helper) are already having their platforms raised slightly and what appear to be wheelchair ramps are being installed.

If not for age-related deterioration, the Superliners would stay in service indefinitely. Superliners are a tried and proven platform that works, Amtrak is hardly in a position to gamble the next 50 years on a new idea when what they have works just fine.

I'd bet my left leg Amtrak sticks to bilevel cars, the trade-offs are too risky.

 

[Crowbar_k]

This will be a recurring point of contention here, and everywhere else for the foreseeable future.

I'll give my two cents again: Amtrak will not stray from the status quo. Single level equipment will alter the structure of trains too much. They'd have to lengthen countless platforms, change train layouts, and likely deal with longer, heavier trains. Personally, I think raising platforms for level boarding should be in the cards, but that'll be easier with lower boarding bi-levels. Plenty of stations around me (Green River, Helper) are already having their platforms raised slightly and what appear to be wheelchair ramps are being installed.

If not for age-related deterioration, the Superliners would stay in service indefinitely. Superliners are a tried and proven platform that works, Amtrak is hardly in a position to gamble the next 50 years on a new idea when what they have works just fine.

I'd bet my left leg Amtrak sticks to bilevel cars, the trade-offs are too risky.

Wouldn't the benefits of having a uniform, standard long distance fleet outweigh the downsides. Currently, there are 2 incompatible long distance fleets. Also, I highly doubt they would have to lengthen the trains. They will not have to lengthen platforms. They already have plenty of platform that are shorter thsn the typical train legth. Bilevel cars don't actually increase capacity that much.

Also, this is just my personal bias, but I think long distance bilevels suck. That staircase is incredibly narrow and you have to make sure the coast is clear before you go up or down. And those stairs (combined with the narrow walkway on the lower level) creates some serious crowding and bottlenecks at stations. Now, the surfliner cars fixed some of these problems, but only slightly.

Here's some more food for thought: Don’t Run Bilevels
https://www.real-rail.com/blog/th... single-level car,over faster than a bilevel.

 

[Amtrak25]

I think ADA will determine low level/high level decision and they will go for uniformity - low level. If some trains get to be 2 cars longer, not important, and they are content running 4 - 6 car Superliners as it is. If high level, I do not see Amtrak maintaining elevators in cars any better than their bathrooms.

 

[frequentflyer]

Remember when Amtrak advertised that Superliners put you at, "See Level"?

Hopefully that does not change.

 

[Trogdor]

Bilevel cars don't actually increase capacity that much.

A Superliner sleeper has 14 roomettes and 7 bedrooms (if we count the H and family rooms), vs. a Viewliner with 12 and 3.

On the coach side, a Superliner, IIRC, has 76 seats vs. 58 or 59 for an Amfleet II.

But, the Superliners are also considerably less dense in their arrangement vs. the equivalent single-level cars. The lower-level of the cars is almost half filled with restrooms, showers & luggage racks. Also, while I haven't measured (and there doesn't seem to be an authoritative, reliable online source for these specs), I've always felt that the Superliner coach seat pitch is better than that found on Amfleet IIs.

If one were to consider that a bedroom takes the place of 2 roomettes (the rooms are essentially the same length, but the bedroom is effectively double the width), that puts the Viewliner hypothetical capacity at 18 roomettes vs. 28 roomettes for a Superliner, which is a 55% increase. I fail to see how a 55% capacity increase is "not that much."

 

[mfastx]

I'm in the single level camp. Amtrak should have one car body for its entire fleet, save for specific high speed trainsets or what have you. I'm generally anti stairs on trains. Level boarding when possible, if freight trains access platforms then build gauntlet tracks or have auto stairs come down from the doors for a lower level (but still above the rail) platform.

 

[jis]

One thing that puzzles me about the Superliners is, even though they are supposed to have a lower center of gravity than single level cars, when they derail, they seem to tip over a lot more. Haven't quite figured out why that is so.

 

[joelkfla]

A Superliner sleeper has 14 roomettes and 7 bedrooms (if we count the H and family rooms), vs. a Viewliner with 12 and 3.

On the coach side, a Superliner, IIRC, has 76 seats vs. 58 or 59 for an Amfleet II.

But, the Superliners are also considerably less dense in their arrangement vs. the equivalent single-level cars. The lower-level of the cars is almost half filled with restrooms, showers & luggage racks. Also, while I haven't measured (and there doesn't seem to be an authoritative, reliable online source for these specs), I've always felt that the Superliner coach seat pitch is better than that found on Amfleet IIs.

If one were to consider that a bedroom takes the place of 2 roomettes (the rooms are essentially the same length, but the bedroom is effectively double the width), that puts the Viewliner hypothetical capacity at 18 roomettes vs. 28 roomettes for a Superliner, which is a 55% increase. I fail to see how a 55% capacity increase is "not that much."

Superliner coaches, with 72 seats, have 22% more seats. For Superliner trains with 4 or fewer coaches and 1 or 2 sleepers, that's still requires an increase of just one + one to roughly equal or exceed current capacity.

 

[Antibuff]

Superliner coaches, with 72 seats, have 22% more seats. For Superliner trains with 4 or fewer coaches and 1 or 2 sleepers, that's still requires an increase of just one + one to roughly equal or exceed current capacity.

As originally built, Superliner coaches had 77 seats; 62 upper level, 15 lower level.

 

[Andrew]

This will be a recurring point of contention here, and everywhere else for the foreseeable future.

I'll give my two cents again: Amtrak will not stray from the status quo. Single level equipment will alter the structure of trains too much. They'd have to lengthen countless platforms, change train layouts, and likely deal with longer, heavier trains. Personally, I think raising platforms for level boarding should be in the cards, but that'll be easier with lower boarding bi-levels. Plenty of stations around me (Green River, Helper) are already having their platforms raised slightly and what appear to be wheelchair ramps are being installed.

If not for age-related deterioration, the Superliners would stay in service indefinitely. Superliners are a tried and proven platform that works, Amtrak is hardly in a position to gamble the next 50 years on a new idea when what they have works just fine.

I'd bet my left leg Amtrak sticks to bilevel cars, the trade-offs are too risky.

I think Amtrak will choose The Siemens Venture Coach for their new long-distance train fleet or perhaps a modified Stadler Kiss car. Yet, it is my understanding that Stadler is a smaller company than Siemens, so I don't know if they would have the capacity to manufacture hundreds of coaches. Does Siemens building a second US factory make it more likely that Amtrak will choose them?

 

[Steve4031]

I believe Siemens is the best bet for long-distance single-level equipment. They could easily produce coaches, diners, and lounge cars. The European-style sleeper won't cut it on a two-night route. Ideally, they could build a sleeper with a similar configuration to the viewliners.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Going out on a limb with this one. A lot of people are assuming Siemens will get it, but who is to say CAF won't be selected again? For better or worse, they're the only ones out of all the bidders who have experience building long distance passenger cars for Amtrak and recently at that. Sure it took a while, but the cars are in service regardless of the delays and issues. Shouldn't rule them out, now I'm off to work.

 

[daybeers]

who is to say CAF won't be selected again

I'll be the first to bet money that it isn't happening.

 

[Amtrak25]

When Amtrak gets burned by an equipment supplier, they tend to hold grudges. They wanted nothing to do with Bombardier after Acela and the HHP's, though now BBD has been eaten by Alstom, that may not matter.

We also have:

CAF screwed up the Viewliner-II order, after having built WMATA's derailment prone 5000's due to bad load sensors and all have now been scrapped.

Kawasaki five years late with LIRR M-9's and M-9A MU's, and WMATA 7000's derailing with wheelset spreading from gauge by the poor manufacturing process by a contractor.

Alstom Avelia's laying around Philadelphia indefintely for God knows why, probably going into 2024.

Seimens Corridor locos with terrible in service availability and reliabality in Chicago and some nasty delays and cancelations with breakdowns of the long distance version on the Empire Builder. Then all the various defects with Venture cars, and some stashed in Beech Grove and Chicago having never seen service. We can't tell what is going on with VIA's two sets, though they do not mix and match this equipment, but I think they only run once a week in the Corridor.

Basically, all these outfits stink in some way, at least in this country.

 

[jis]

Actually, in case of Siemens, it appears that one common factor in all the problems is Amtrak, since the other customers in North America seem to be not having all these problems. At least it is quite an enduring mystery to me. I hope they improve as they go into the Airo acquisition phase.

If holding grudges like pouty teenagers is an Amtrak thing then eventually Amtrak may be left with no one to order anything from given their apparent inability to manage any purchase contract reasonably Besides I very much doubt anyone with that corporate memory remains at Amtrak after it has been turned upside down over the last 5 or so years. Indeed, the problem at present appears to be more due to lack of corporate memory, with the new team floundering around.

I have no idea what is going on with Alstom and Acela IIs but at present they appear to be targeted for introduction mid-2024. I hope they have enough Acela Is still operational to maintain some semblance of minimal service by then, as they appear to have ceased to do significant maintenance on them.

 

[frequentflyer]

One thing that puzzles me about the Superliners is, even though they are supposed to have a lower center of gravity than single level cars, when they derail, they seem to tip over a lot more. Haven't quite figured out why that is so.

But do they? Plenty of Amfleet, VLs and Heritage cars ended up on their sides. Deraillments that come to mind the old State House in the 80s hitting a dumptruck at 79mph and four of the five Amfleets went onto their sides. This conversation came up on over on TrainsOrder many years ago, talking about the superiority of the SIs and SIIs low center of gravity, an example was brought up I did not know about. Back when it Texas Eagle equipped like a real train it derailed in Arkansas at speed. The whole consist stayed upright.

Put any rail car on a 30 degree bank and see what happens, now add forward progress and no track beneath it. Physics take over. The Empire Builder and SWC cars would have ended up the same positions if they had been Viewliners or Siemens new cars.

Bud and then Pullman engineers did an amazing job.

 

[west point]

I'll be the first to bet money that it isn't happening.

It could happen with a contract but only with very tight contracts on both sides. IMO contracts would say build exactly the same way as V-2s except a decent linen closet. Delay penalty's severe. Are CAF's light deliveries doing well?

 

[jis]

It could happen with a contract but only with very tight contracts on both sides. IMO contracts would say build exactly the same way as V-2s except a decent linen closet. Delay penalty's severe. Are CAF's light deliveries doing well?

Nobody will order another v2 so that contract specification is not happening.

What will happen is that the RFQ will set out a bunch of requirements to be met and the vendors will submit how they propose to meet it. I am lmost certain that even if CAF bids they will not bid a V2 since they have no operating production line or design bureau that has any expertise in that. It was a one shot deal which they somehow struggled through, and I bet they never wish to hear of it again.

They will likely bid something based on their run of the mill car shell, like the one used in their Civity platform. They would probably dig into their Caledonian Sleeper experience to base their interior design for Sleepers on. Just my guess. Bottom line is they will bid something that they know how to do well, and will most likely not bid a special case where they fumbled badly.

 

[jiml]

They would probably dig into their Caledonian Sleeper experience to base their interior design for Sleepers on.

Not sure that would be a rousing endorsement.

 

[jis]

Not sure that would be a rousing endorsement.

Actually, I don't think Amtrak's requirements will match those at all, but the basic modularization allows fitting almost anything in principle. I wonder if Amtrak will designate a specific interior designer of their choice adding complexity to the equation. Hopefully they will use instead a more hands off approach like they have done with the Airo so far. It should be noted that the State's acquisition of the Ventures, which so far has turned out to be the messiest of them all, was not managed by Amtrak. It was done by the cast of a dozen characters from the states involved.

 

[GDRRiley]

Stadler is the clear answer for someone who hasn't screwed up an amtrak order yet. They've already built bi level cars like the sightseer lounge. They've built sleepers and dining cars recently for others. Their US factory has plenty of space to grow to meet a larger order

 

[jis]

Stadler is the clear answer for someone who hasn't screwed up an amtrak order yet. They've already built bi level cars like the sightseer lounge. They've built sleepers and dining cars recently for others. Their US factory has plenty of space to grow to meet a larger order

Don't worry. Amtrak will fix that pronto

That makes me wonder more seriously about an example of an Amtrak supplier who has not screwed up in this century. How does their performance when supplying to other customers compare? Customer in the US? Customer in the rest of the world? What's the difference if any? I don't know. Just wondering aloud.

 

[MARC Rider]

Don't worry. Amtrak will fix that pronto

That makes me wonder more seriously about an example of an Amtrak supplier who has not screwed up in this century. How does their performance when supplying to other customers compare? Customer in the US? Customer in the rest of the world? What's the difference if any? I don't know. Just wondering aloud.

Well, Budd built the Amfleets without too much problem. Of course Budd is not making railcars anymore.

 

[Willbridge]

Stadler is the clear answer for someone who hasn't screwed up an amtrak order yet. They've already built bi level cars like the sightseer lounge. They've built sleepers and dining cars recently for others. Their US factory has plenty of space to grow to meet a larger order

Stadler seems to have a good follow-up program, also. For their big transit customers in Germany they have a former S-Bahn facility in Velten. Here's a Google translation from their website:

Service and commissioning center Velten, Germany

The Velten Service Centre in Brandenburg is the centre of excellence for acceptance tests and commissioning of rail vehicles. The direct connection to the Hennigsdorf/Velten test track enables test drives at up to 120 kilometers per hour. In addition, service and testing work is carried out in Velten.

Here's a photo of what the property looked like in 1970 when I first saw it. Google Maps show that the space now accommodates a modern facility.

 

[GDRRiley]

Stadler seems to have a good follow-up program, also. For their big transit customers in Germany they have a former S-Bahn facility in Velten. Here's a Google translation from their website:

Yeah if you sign a contract they'll make sure equipment gets taken care of. I can't think of anyone else who has multiple customers with EMUs all running without spares and under 6 hours of nightly upkeep.