Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement discussion (2022 - 2024Q1)

[cocojacoby]

Just for fun how about thinking about alternative bedroom configurations? I played around with this idea today to see what I could come up with.

Top row: Existing Superliner Bedroom Configuration.

Bottom row: Alternative Superliner Bedroom Configuration.

Here's my thinking.

Problems with existing setup:
Bottom bunk too narrow for two adults. Top bunk not very desirable. Can't easily access door or sink when bed is down.

Problems with alternative setup:
Bedroom Suites not possible unless sink is placed inside bathroom. How often are these sold? Won't miss the always rattling door.

Alternative plan highlights:
Full size 53" double bed.
Two wide sofas for up to four passengers.
Sleep parallel to windows which is my personal favorite way to travel in a sleeper.
Full access at all times to door, bathroom and sink.

Bedroom for three option:
Not sure about this one but maybe possible to have an upper berth fold down from the wall over the feet of the lower bed to provide much more headroom than present upper bunks since it only has to allow clearance for the feet of the sleepers below.

 

[toddinde]

I’m afraid bilevel trains just aren’t going to cut it from an accessibility point of view. We’re an aging population and putting elevators in cars is a rather expensive solution and a mechanical point of failure. But we can fix this in a better way. Have a single level train every 12 hours rather than one train a day. This makes more efficient use of infrastructure like stations, makes for better crew and equipment utilization and provides for much more service. The lounge could still have larger windows, or even have a gentle ramp into a dome like the Swiss dome I rode in years ago. I would also suggest a dining car like they have in the Deutsche Bahn which has a take-out counter on one side and sit down dining on the other. The world has changed, and we have to be creative.

 

[toddinde]

It is also questionable if a taxpayer subsidized outfit should be indulging in such while needs of basic transportation go unmet.

I don’t think Amtrak should be in the business of running cruise trains. Regular trains can serve that purpose and provide transportation like the California Zephyr did back in the day. The Canadian might be a success from a bottom line perspective, but it’s an epic fail from a transportation standpoint. I rode both the Canadian and the Super Continental in the ‘70s. They provided needed transportation and were popular. The Canadian doesn’t do a good job providing transportation today. It’s not a model.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I’m afraid bilevel trains just aren’t going to cut it from an accessibility point of view. We’re an aging population and putting elevators in cars is a rather expensive solution and a mechanical point of failure. But we can fix this in a better way. Have a single level train every 12 hours rather than one train a day. This makes more efficient use of infrastructure like stations, makes for better crew and equipment utilization and provides for much more service. The lounge could still have larger windows, or even have a gentle ramp into a dome like the Swiss dome I rode in years ago. I would also suggest a dining car like they have in the Deutsche Bahn which has a take-out counter on one side and sit down dining on the other. The world has changed, and we have to be creative.

The frequency of long distance trains needs does to be addressed if Amtrak's long distance trains are expected to be taken seriously moving forward. It can't be just replace the existing stuff and that's it. Every 12 hours would be better than what it is today, granted to pull off such a feat would require a lot of cooperation with the freight railroads. The question some aren't asking when it comes to adding more long distance routes, will the railroads allow additional trains let alone passenger trains every 12 hours or better each day? I'm going to come back to this.

Also not to turn this into a European railway discussion thread, but Deutsche Bahn between 2015-2022 has added bi level trains to it's long distance fleet, both the locomotive hauled variety and the electric multiple unit variety. Even they had to go in that direction with their long distance trains, cause of increasing ridership. They call them Intercity 2 or IC2 trains.

The subject of double decker trains vs. single level trains is a complicated one. Does Amtrak buy a fleet of double decker long distance trains with some or all cars fitted with elevators, so they can transport passengers with limited to no mobility? Does Amtrak buy a fleet of single deck trains that'll limit the amount of people they can carry?

Does Amtrak operate those same single deck trains on the same once a day long distance routes (except Cardinal and Sunset Limited), due to the railroads not willing to allow more trains to run on the route? I'm glad to be on this forum and not planning the rolling stock purchases at Amtrak.

 

[Cal]

Just for fun how about thinking about alternative bedroom configurations? I played around with this idea today to see what I could come up with.

Top row: Existing Superliner Bedroom Configuration.

Bottom row: Alternative Superliner Bedroom Configuration.

Here's my thinking.

Problems with existing setup:
Bottom bunk too narrow for two adults. Top bunk not very desirable. Can't easily access door or sink when bed is down.

Problems with alternative setup:
Bedroom Suites not possible unless sink is placed inside bathroom. How often are these sold? Won't miss the always rattling door.

Alternative plan highlights:
Full size 53" double bed.
Two wide sofas for up to four passengers.
Sleep parallel to windows which is my personal favorite way to travel in a sleeper.
Full access at all times to door, bathroom and sink.

Bedroom for three option:
Not sure about this one but maybe possible to have an upper berth fold down from the wall over the feet of the lower bed to provide much more headroom than present upper bunks since it only has to allow clearance for the feet of the sleepers below.

View attachment 31709

Love this.

 

[Steve4031]

I think single level and standardization is the key. The alternative bedroom set up is better than the current set up in that now there’s two comfortable window seats. And both seats could be used for napping. The bed being parallel to the window is better.

 

[Lcon]

Amtrak could follow the VIA Model on the Canadian and create a "Prestige Class" with a Queen or King Size Bed, but then most riders wouldn't be able to afford the "Premium " Upgrade they would charge!

The real question I think you are rising on this “what should be the mission statement for the multi day LD trains?”
Amtrak was established to maintain passenger rail transportation across the United States as a Transportation service by consolidating and off loading the passenger rail services of the large railroads. Said services were failing as Air and car travel absorbed traffic from them. The rail system fails for the same reason the great Atlantic Ocean liners did. Air travel became faster cheaper and more efficient. Though the cost of a coast to coast on Amtrak in coach may be less than that of an airline a couple hours on a budget flight is more tolerable than a few days in coach. Save for those intrepid souls.
Though true HSR has emerged The problem is on routes beyond about 500 miles it looses efficiency and that it requires extensive modifications and upgrades to achieve. Even then it can only compete to degrees with regional domestic air in the “Goldilocks range”. To far to drive to close to fly, the great long distance trains travel both beyond that range and lack the speed and reliability.
So what justifies the LD service? A lot of these routes are maintained because of the government’s subsidizes them. Not unique to rail as air lines also gets subsidies to provide services to places otherwise not covered, and of course the roads are paid for by taxpayers too.
I think many would love to see a train service like the Japanese excursion trains on the scenic routes in the US but the practical issues, overhead cost pretty much kill that. With the failure of the “American Orient Express” and the original Auto train the Rocky Mountaineer is the closest to an American land cruise but it’s day sight seeing with nights in hotels. So Amtrak whom is happy to show you the sights but it’s like trying to take a cruise vacation on a Ferry boat. Far from optimal but you can make the best of it.

Adding additional passenger trains or longer consists on the LD routes that exist today won’t help if you can’t improve the schedule reliability. The problems would only get more complicated as you have even more traffic competing for across finite railroad. European Railroads often segregate freight and fast passenger trains that’s not an option with much of the existing infrastructure.
The conundrum is even if you improve LD service reliability there is no reason to expect it to compete end to end with airlines, due to trip times still being significantly longer.

As to bi vs single level. First just because it’s single level doesn’t make it accessible. Single level coaches like the Venture and Amfleet floor is elevated above ground level. Now many train platforms are elevated to ease loading to an easy step in or roll in hight but many are also curb hight. The Venture coaches at least for brightline use a mechanical wheelchair lift. A wheelchair lift is going to be just as susceptible to break down as an elevator. Farther redundancy comes in as you’re likely to have more than one in the consist.
Additionally though Amtrak is not a rolling cruise train it does do tourist features like observation cars and large cafe cars with windows which favor bi level coaches.

 

[Mailliw]

It seems like it would be easy to implement the alternative bedroom for 3 (aka drawing room) option in a single level car.

 

[rs9]

The real question I think you are rising on this “what should be the mission statement for the multi day LD trains?”
Amtrak was established to maintain passenger rail transportation across the United States as a Transportation service by consolidating and off loading the passenger rail services of the large railroads. Said services were failing as Air and car travel absorbed traffic from them. The rail system fails for the same reason the great Atlantic Ocean liners did. Air travel became faster cheaper and more efficient. Though the cost of a coast to coast on Amtrak in coach may be less than that of an airline a couple hours on a budget flight is more tolerable than a few days in coach. Save for those intrepid souls.
Though true HSR has emerged The problem is on routes beyond about 500 miles and that requires extensive modifications and upgrades to achieve. Even then it can only compete to degrees with regional domestic air in the “Goldilocks range”. To far to drive to close to fly, the great long distance trains travel both beyond that range and lack the speed and reliability.

The conundrum is even if you improve LD service reliability there is no reason to expect it to compete end to end with airlines, due to trip times still being significantly longer.

Here I would make the argument that the world has changed in the last few years, and continues to change. In that Amtrak, has an opportunity to get this right and align itself with where the world seems headed.

1. Airfares are really high right now. I am planning a Chicago-to-Boston trip in May. For a Wednesday departure, Sunday return round trip flight, without a flight departing at 5 a.m., the cost is essentially $600. This is more than two months out. Now I know there is high travel demand, but is it likely the airlines are going to be dropping these prices once demand and supply begin to settle a bit as we move further and further from the pandemic? Call me a cynic but I don't think so. In this, Amtrak has an opportunity. Though I will note that Amtrak is missing out on an opportunity right now because of their tight capacity - a similar spring trip to DC on the Capitol Limited prices out as literally twice as expensive for Amtrak as for flying, which is ridiculous.

2. With work from home freedom, even for hybrid workers, a one-overnight trip on Amtrak is suddenly a lot more feasible. I understand that the mode of transport is isn't for everyone, but Amtrak's long distance order should aim to win customers like me who suddenly have found Amtrak as a reasonable source of travel in the post-COVID era. Figure out Wifi and provide some sort of in-between product between coach and sleeper and Amtrak should have a good chance to capture passengers.

3. This logic only really holds for the eastern one night trains.

 

[Lcon]

Here I would make the argument that the world has changed in the last few years, and continues to change. In that Amtrak, has an opportunity to get this right and align itself with where the world seems headed.

1. Airfares are really high right now. I am planning a Chicago-to-Boston trip in May. For a Wednesday departure, Sunday return round trip flight, without a flight departing at 5 a.m., the cost is essentially $600. This is more than two months out. Now I know there is high travel demand, but is it likely the airlines are going to be dropping these prices once demand and supply begin to settle a bit as we move further and further from the pandemic? Call me a cynic but I don't think so. In this, Amtrak has an opportunity. Though I will note that Amtrak is missing out on an opportunity right now because of their tight capacity - a similar spring trip to DC on the Capitol Limited prices out as literally twice as expensive for Amtrak as for flying, which is ridiculous.

2. With work from home freedom, even for hybrid workers, a one-overnight trip on Amtrak is suddenly a lot more feasible. I understand that the mode of transport is isn't for everyone, but Amtrak's long distance order should aim to win customers like me who suddenly have found Amtrak as a reasonable source of travel in the post-COVID era. Figure out Wifi and provide some sort of in-between product between coach and sleeper and Amtrak should have a good chance to capture passengers.

3. This logic only really holds for the eastern one night trains.

A quick glance at Jet blue and Southwest I found one way options in the getting $315-368 price range but that’s economy random days I fell into and times of day. As always demand period, time of day and Airline, class service comes into play some flight are clearly going to push the price point even on economy to a point where an Amtrak roomette makes more sense from a purely practical perspective. Yet that’s going to be a high demand high price period. Amtrak service seems set to improve in many areas and even in LD service. However one trip over a thousand miles and for questions on arrival time windows… well I am sure we have heard the horror stories.

Next I am not saying it’s all doom and gloom, I do believe that the service can be improved must be improved. However the questions that still have to be answered are how to get the LD to meet its schedule targets. Improving quality of service is an easier task with new equipment but scheduling is hard due to the network limitations and conflicts that are systemic. The longer the distances involved the more likely disruption compounds leading to longer overdue trains.

The eastern states vs western states are the big issue. North to south across the U.S. generally could be done within an overnight + period. East coast to Mississippi River can be done in an overnight period and these are fairly reliable services where there is service. The trouble is Mississippi to west coast where the great long haul trains roam due to the expanse of the states and the conflicting interests that generate issues. I mean these routes as scheduled are already pushing two full days.

 

[MARC Rider]

The basic transportation function of the long distance trains is mainly for people taking shorter trips along parts of the route. It makes sense to combine these corridor-style trips into a single train that goes a longer distance, especially in serving rural areas and smaller cities that don't justify setting up a full corridor service. However, once can also add facilities for people taking longer trips or taking "land cruises" as a way to add revenue in support of the basic transportation service. This is borne out by the RPA figures (2019 values)"

https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3435/ld.pdf
3.7 million coach passengers travel an average of 457 miles per trip at an average fare of $70 yields $9.5 million in revenue.
673,000 sleeper passengers travel an average trip length of 990 miles at an average fare of $283 yields $4.8 million dollars.

Clearly sleeping car passengers are a cash cow for Amtrak, assuming that they can keep the incremental costs of providing the extra sleeping car service from being too large a portion of the revenue yield. Remember, the fixed costs of running the train are the same, regardless of whether it's an all coach Greyhound on rails or the next incarnation of the Orient Express. I see no reason why a version of VIA's Prestige class wouldn't be an appropriate offering for Amtrak, justified by its being a revenue enhancer that cross subsidizes the essential services.

 

[jis]

I see no reason why a version of VIA's Prestige class wouldn't be an appropriate offering for Amtrak, justified by its being a revenue enhancer that cross subsidizes the essential services.

While you may not see it, I know many among the political class on whom we depend for the very existence of Amtrak, not necessarily in the rail advocacy community, who would actively oppose such and use it to undermine government funding for Amtrak in general. I know, life is unfair. Remember how close we came to losing dining service which isn't exactly even close to the opulence of Prestige Class?

What could work is an outside contractor providing such service and paying Amtrak a fixed fee for that privilege. But every such attempt so far has failed.

 

[MARC Rider]

While you may not see it, I know many among the political class on whom we depend for the very existence of Amtrak, not necessarily in the rail advocacy community, who would actively oppose such and use it to undermine government funding for Amtrak in general. I know, life is unfair. Remember how close we came to losing dining service which isn't exactly even close to the opulence of Prestige Class?

What could work is an outside contractor providing such service and paying Amtrak a fixed fee for that privilege. But every such attempt so far has failed.

You're probably right about that. It's part of our current political culture. Heaven forbid that a government-related entity should be able to even partially self-fund an essential service unless they have a (probably politically-connected) contractor skim off some gravy first. A Prestige Class actually has the potential to reduce the amount of taxpayer subsidy needed to cover the essential service, but I guess that's too hard to explain in today's political climate.

 

[jis]

You're probably right about that. It's part of our current political culture. Heaven forbid that a government-related entity should be able to even partially self-fund an essential service unless they have a (probably politically-connected) contractor skim off some gravy first. A Prestige Class actually has the potential to reduce the amount of taxpayer subsidy needed to cover the essential service.

These things have always looked good on paper, but whenever someone actually tried to do it they failed. Even in the heyday of passenger service, it was typically the high class service that died first, barring a few exceptions, and those more often than not carried on because the Chief Executive chose to take large losses for the sake of PR. It is the milk runs that survived last, and even the high class services eventually quite often took on the role of milk runs, again barring a few.

But we are now getting far afield from realistic LD fleet replacement that is in process at present.

 

[user 14106]

Amtrak was considering something like Prestige class a couple years back when Anderson was still around “an experiential service class” was what they were talking about. Seems like that idea fizzled out with Covid. I don’t think it would have flown - his idea seemed to be run less long distance trains with fancier amenities.

 

[west point]

2 events caused quick shrinking of RR service. The Pullman break up and loss of mail contracts. My out of the way town had 6 Pullman cars lay over every morning. That quickly sank to 2 RR owned sleepers. Pullman knew how to market. The RRs could not figure out how to do it being so many hands in the pot.

 

[Willbridge]

Amtrak was considering something like Prestige class a couple years back when Anderson was still around “an experiential service class” was what they were talking about. Seems like that idea fizzled out with Covid. I don’t think it would have flown - his idea seemed to be run less long distance trains with fancier amenities.

It was basically the VIA Rail concept, in which well-off foreign tourists cruise a couple of times a week on a single, well-polished service, The rest of the country can go to...

 

[TheMalahat]

It was basically the VIA Rail concept, in which well-off foreign tourists cruise a couple of times a week on a single, well-polished service, The rest of the country can go to...

And in the Via Rail case that income from super-premium fares pays the bill almost entirely for Canadian service to continue; it was a important move to keep the train even running a few governments ago when Via was facing significant austerity.

The question now is what this looks like going forward with a new equipment procurement. Will there be a willingness by the Feds to put forward public funds to essentially subsidize the upkeep of super-premium service? I really doubt it, but we will see.

 

[jis]

And in the Via Rail case that income from super-premium fares pays the bill almost entirely for Canadian service to continue; it was a important move to keep the train even running a few governments ago when Via was facing significant austerity.

The question now is what this looks like going forward with a new equipment procurement. Will there be a willingness by the Feds to put forward public funds to essentially subsidize the upkeep of super-premium service? I really doubt it, but we will see.

Is there a train specific financial accounting for the Canadian available anywhere where we could easily take a look at it?

 

[TheMalahat]

Is there a train specific financial accounting for the Canadian available anywhere where we could easily take a look at it?

Here's the 2019 Annual Report which does an okay breakdown: https://media.viarail.ca/sites/default/files/publications/2019 VIA RAIL AR_ENGLISH.pdf

Naturally 2020 and 2021 were a lil weird.

Financials are also broken down on their annual meeting, available on YouTube. They're long and boring but filled with a few nuggets.

 

[jis]

Here's the 2019 Annual Report which does an okay breakdown: https://media.viarail.ca/sites/default/files/publications/2019 VIA RAIL AR_ENGLISH.pdf

Naturally 2020 and 2021 were a lil weird.

Financials are also broken down on their annual meeting, available on YouTube. They're long and boring but filled with a few nuggets.

Thanks much! Much appreciated!

 

[Septa9739]

In light of Amtrak’s new desire for integral trainsets, I’m going to propose this idea, which I don’t love for the sake of sections. These Amtrak long distance trainsets will have 14 passenger related cars: 1 baggage, 5 60 seat coaches the one nearest the diner having ample ADA space, cafe/lounge, diner, 6 sleepers (3 18-0, 2 0-10 [subject to ADA]). The coaches and sleepers will be single level. The diner and lounge will be the height of an NJT MLV and connect at the top level. 20 ft ramps in the lounge and diner will ensure ADA compliance. The diner would mostly be like a Superliner, less about 4 tables. The lounge would be more or less an SSL, but crew roomettes (single bunk only) and office would be on the lower lever. I can’t picture where the snack bar might go. I don’t know if two power cars could be enough, but I’d imagine extras could be added as engineers would deem necessary. Could this work? It doesn’t seem ideal, but could balance ADA concerns with seat size concerns and might be a nice balance between single and bilevel equipment.

 

[jis]

You can certainly potentially be much more creative in an integrated train set than in a train of individual cars, since you have much more guaranteed to be present space to play with.

Incidentally, rumor has it that the articulated distributed power long distance Vande Bharat sets in India will be nominally 20 cars in length since that is the length of most higher speed overnight trains in India these days. I think Amtrak could pull off a 12 or 14 car set on most routes., though it will involve a lot of double spotting possibly.

But of course this is quite unlikely, but let us see what the vendors propose to Amtrak, since that is what brought about the Airo sets.

 

[joelkfla]

Incidentally, rumor has it that the articulated distributed power long distance Vande Bharat sets in India will be nominally 20 cars in length since that is the length of most higher speed overnight trains in India these days. I think Amtrak could pull off a 12 or 14 car set on most routes., though it will involve a lot of double spotting possibly.

Based on the capacities on Wikipedia, a Superliner coach has just 125% of the capacity of an Amfleet 2; so 5 single level cars equal 4 bilevels. I haven't looked at the sleeper capacities, but my gut feel is that it's in the same ballpark.

Based on that ratio, does Amtrak really need 12-14 car trains?

 

[jis]

Based on the capacities on Wikipedia, a Superliner coach has just 125% of the capacity of an Amfleet 2; so 5 single level cars equal 4 bilevels. I haven't looked at the sleeper capacities, but my gut feel is that it's in the same ballpark.

Based on that ratio, does Amtrak really need 12-14 car trains?

They don't have to start with that. Look at what Brightline is doing. They started with 4 cars. Now they have some service being run by 5 car trains, and they have just placed a top up order for another 20 cars.