Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement RFP discussion H1 2024

[Harmon Shay]

I wouldn't be surprised about Bombardier merger trouble. I remember reading that Bombardier had gone the way of so many other big companies, making bad management choices and winding up with production problems and overpaid executives. I know one of our Sounder coach orders out here was delayed quite a bit, though some of that may have had to do with the pandemic. Now, with only five-coach trains instead of seven on the south line most of the time and only two of the original four trainsets running on the north line, Sounder has something like 25 coaches in storage. And by my equipment rotation figuring, restructuring from a weekday commute-only service (with some game trains on weekends) to all-day seven-day-a-week service could put even more coaches in storage, at least temporarily. That's based on a proposed schedule that's floating around.

 

[ST Saint]

I know one of our Sounder coach orders out here was delayed quite a bit, though some of that may have had to do with the pandemic. Now, with only five-coach trains instead of seven on the south line most of the time and only two of the original four trainsets running on the north line, Sounder has something like 25 coaches in storage. And by my equipment rotation figuring, restructuring from a weekday commute-only service (with some game trains on weekends) to all-day seven-day-a-week service could put even more coaches in storage, at least temporarily. That's based on a proposed schedule that's floating around.

This is also due to two things: new passenger information systems are being installed in the new cars first. These need to be completed and tested before the rollout. Once they're good to go, the new cars will finally be rotated in and more older cars will start to go through that process.

Second, Amtrak was having staffing issues surrounding maintenance and adding additional trips to Cascades. As a compromise, Sound Transit shortened most trains to five cars so Amtrak had less to maintain overall since the ridership numbers were down. I do think we're getting close to wanting additional coaches again (or at least look more into additional trips throughout the day which may alleviate some of that anyway.)

Back to the Amtrak future LD fleet: I'm also really curious what Stadler does and we could still see a dark horse bid from one of the others listed. I still think Siemens is the one to beat, Alstom has its issues, but I'd like to see how their rhythm increases with the Metra and CTDOT orders progress, so I still wouldn't count them out (with their California car blueprints after-all). I just want to know more, but only time will tell.

 

[jiml]

For reference, Toronto's GO Transit has almost 1000 Bombardier bi-level coaches, with another 36 on order. Alstom is not hurting for business.

 

[Paniolo Man]

For a lack of other recent information:

I was invited on a tour of the Stadler Factory in Salt Lake City this last week. During the presentation before the tour we were shown a phased expansion plan for the site that involves adding a second assembly hall, a large carshell welding facility, and more finishing halls. The largest phase has been funded and should begin construction soon. The first phase would more than double the factory footprint while it will triple by the end of the project.

What stood out to me was a mention that there will be some capacity for stainless steel at this factory in the future to accommodate a stainless steel light-rail platform that they are currently bidding on at least two contracts in the US. It is guaranteed that any LD stock (Amtrak or VIA) will be stainless steel. Based on a vague answer from an employee on the subject, it is safe to assume that Stadler is also vying for VIA's LD order.

I also got to see Stadler's bid on the Amtrak intercity contract that Siemens ended up winning, they certainly had an interesting concept.

It'll probably be at least several more months before a preferred vendor is chosen. Though Stadler is a pretty long shot for LD stock, I am still anxiously awaiting news on the subject.

Here's the one picture I was allowed to take inside the factory:

 

[Johnny]

For a lack of other recent information:

I was invited on a tour of the Stadler Factory in Salt Lake City this last week. During the presentation before the tour we were shown a phased expansion plan for the site that involves adding a second assembly hall, a large carshell welding facility, and more finishing halls. The largest phase has been funded and should begin construction soon. The first phase would more than double the factory footprint while it will triple by the end of the project.

What stood out to me was a mention that there will be some capacity for stainless steel at this factory in the future to accommodate a stainless steel light-rail platform that they are currently bidding on at least two contracts in the US. It is guaranteed that any LD stock (Amtrak or VIA) will be stainless steel. Based on a vague answer from an employee on the subject, it is safe to assume that Stadler is also vying for VIA's LD order.

I also got to see Stadler's bid on the Amtrak intercity contract that Siemens ended up winning, they certainly had an interesting concept.

It'll probably be at least several more months before a preferred vendor is chosen. Though Stadler is a pretty long shot for LD stock, I am still anxiously awaiting news on the subject.

Here's the one picture I was allowed to take inside the factory:

View attachment 37059

Lol what was Stadler's bid for the Amtrak coaches? And which two contracts are they currently bidding on?

Furthermore, as far as I know, Stadler only makes aluminum trains--which makes me believe that Amtrak is likely to go with Siemens, Alstom or Kawasaki for the new long-distance cars.

Although I have never ridden a Stadler train before, I do believe that their rolling stock--such as the KISS--look awesome.

 

[thefirewarde]

I'm also interested in the Stadler intercity (Northeast Corridor?) fleet plan - I assume you can't give details, but was it a novel design or was it closely derived from an existing Stadler product family?

 

[jis]

I'm also interested in the Stadler intercity (Northeast Corridor?) fleet plan - I assume you can't give details, but was it a novel design or was it closely derived from an existing Stadler product family?

What is the Stadler Intercity (Northeast Corridor?) fleet plan. The Northeast Corridor non-Acela fleet is being supplied by Siemens in the form of the Airo trainsets.

 

[Paniolo Man]

What is the Stadler Intercity (Northeast Corridor?) fleet plan. The Northeast Corridor non-Acela fleet is being supplied by Siemens in the form of the Airo trainsets.

I wasn't allowed to take pictures, but it appeared to be a long-distance FLIRT derivative. It seemed similar to what they have sold in Norway. Of course we won't be seeing it here any time soon as that contract was awarded to Siemens with their Airo platform. There is a possibility that I am misremembering things, but It seemed to just be a very ling FLIRT DMU Dual Mode.

Lol what was Stadler's bid for the Amtrak coaches? And which two contracts are they currently bidding on?

Furthermore, as far as I know, Stadler only makes aluminum trains--which makes me believe that Amtrak is likely to go with Siemens, Alstom or Kawasaki for the new long-distance cars.

Although I have never ridden a Stadler train before, I do believe that their rolling stock--such as the KISS--look awesome.

An employee specifically mentioned that they are bidding on two light rail contracts, I know with 100% confidence that they are bidding on UTA's SD Unit replacement. I have no idea what the second may be. I am decently confident that Stadler is bidding metro vehicles for SEPTA and potentially another customer. When I mentioned VIA the sales guy smiled and nodded, perhaps I shouldn't read into it too much, but VIA seems a better fit for Stadler than Amtrak.

What is relevant to the LD order in all of this, is the fact that the Light Rail platform they intend to introduce seems to be of a more conventional steel design. I may be wrong about this, but I recall it being mentioned. They intend to have capacity for steel cars in the US. They have made Steel cars in Europe before, including the bilevels for Rocky Mountaineer that were shipped to Canada from Switzerland. I definitely believe that Alstom has a better chance, however Stadler certainly has the ability to build what Amtrak wants.

 

[thefirewarde]

The Northeast Corridor non-Acela fleet is being supplied by Siemens in the form of the Airo trainsets.

Yes, because Stadler's bid lost. I was curious what they had proposed.

 

[Paniolo Man]

Stadler likes boldly bidding outside the bounds of what is asked if they think their way is better. They won Caltrain because they were the only bidder willing to accommodate 2 door heights. They bid aluminum EMU metro sets when MARTA asked for steel cars. They tried the same with LA metro, who were less receptive to the idea.

I hope they don't play these games with Amtrak because Amtrak is far less likely to tolerate bids that are out of spec.

 

[rickycourtney]

Stadler likes boldly bidding outside the bounds of what is asked if they think their way is better.

Sounds like Talgo. We know how well that worked out for them.

 

[jis]

Yes, because Stadler's bid lost. I was curious what they had proposed.

If I had to guess, I would bet on some derivative of the FLIRT platform.

 

[Paniolo Man]

If I had to guess, I would bet on some derivative of the FLIRT platform.

I'm pretty sure it was a FLIRT. Just a really long one.

 

[nickeljoshua]

Lol what was Stadler's bid for the Amtrak coaches? And which two contracts are they currently bidding on?

Furthermore, as far as I know, Stadler only makes aluminum trains--which makes me believe that Amtrak is likely to go with Siemens, Alstom or Kawasaki for the new long-distance cars.

Although I have never ridden a Stadler train before, I do believe that their rolling stock--such as the KISS--look awesome.

LA Metro currently uses stainless steel lrv's in their fleet. They are also in the early stages of purchasing new vehicles. They just recently hired a company to manage the procurement of the new vehicles they are calling the P3030
https://boardagendas.metro.net/board-report/2020-0056/

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Not that it means anything, but the Avelia Liberties that are hopefully due to go into service later this year were constructed of aluminum. So we'll have to wait and see what happens with the order.

 

[cocojacoby]

So what are the advantages and disadvantages of Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel? Stainless Steel cars seem to last forever and aluminum cars seem to age more quickly but that's from anecdotal observation. Aluminum cars should be lighter in weight I would guess. If aluminum cars wear out quicker but cost much less then that might justify their use. Any thoughts?

 

[Willbridge]

So what are the advantages and disadvantages of Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel? Stainless Steel cars seem to last forever and aluminum cars seem to age more quickly but that's from anecdotal observation. Aluminum cars should be lighter in weight I would guess. If aluminum cars wear out quicker but cost much less then that might justify their use. Any thoughts?

Our Edmonton Transit CCF Brill trolley coaches were aluminum and were in service on heavy lines for 24 to 30 years, about twice as long as typical transit buses.

 

[Paniolo Man]

Aluminum may work well for light transit vehicles and MUs, but I doubt Amtrak will take aluminum for any LD sets.

 

[jis]

So what are the advantages and disadvantages of Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel? Stainless Steel cars seem to last forever and aluminum cars seem to age more quickly but that's from anecdotal observation. Aluminum cars should be lighter in weight I would guess. If aluminum cars wear out quicker but cost much less then that might justify their use. Any thoughts?

Aluminum is lighter. That is how the AGV, the TGV Duplex and Avelia Liberty keep within 7 tonne axle load, even while using Jacobs Trucks. Generally high speed tgrain sets have a life of 30 to 40 years at most, and either Stainless Steel or Aluminum work fine for that.

Aluminum may work well for light transit vehicles and MUs, but I doubt Amtrak will take aluminum for any LD sets.

Aren't the AGV based cars of the Avelia Liberty made of Aluminum Alloy, also same as for TGV Duplex? Maybe Amtrak might change its mind on that matter?

 

[Harmon Shay]

My understanding is that our Cascades Talgo Series 6s were good for 30 years. Had they not been taken out of service, and assuming a one- to two-year delay in getting our Cascades Airo trains into service (the official delivery date, according to WSDOT, is still December of next year), that would have just about worked out.

 

[west point]

From what is posted here the lighter weight might require trucks that are different from present trucks?

 

[Willbridge]

Aluminum is lighter. That is how the AGV, the TGV Duplex and Avelia Liberty keep within 7 tonne axle load, even while using Jacobs Trucks. Generally high speed tgrain sets have a life of 30 to 40 years at most, and either Stainless Steel or Aluminum work fine for that.

Aren't the AGV based cars of the Avelia Liberty made of Aluminum Alloy, also same as for TGV Duplex? Maybe Amtrak might change its mind on that matter?

Another use of aluminum was in the CN Tempo fleet, seen here ahead of the dome on the Rio Grande Ski Train.

 

[cirdan]

So what are the advantages and disadvantages of Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel? Stainless Steel cars seem to last forever and aluminum cars seem to age more quickly but that's from anecdotal observation. Aluminum cars should be lighter in weight I would guess. If aluminum cars wear out quicker but cost much less then that might justify their use. Any thoughts?

I once toured the workshops of the streetcar operation in Freiburg Germany. My tour guide was a senior technical expert who had been involved in the speccing and purchase of different batches of streetcars over several decades. He said aluminum is much more precise. He said if you order steel, and look at the specs, and then take a tape measure to the final product, there is almost always some measurable discrepancy. He said this is caused by thermal problems in the welding shop and stress and strain in the bodyshell among others. The deviation is typically small, but enough that things like interior panels have to be customized from one unit to the next and you can't just exchange parts between units. He told us there had been one batch of I think 10 identical cars. One of these managed to scrape a roadside obstruction that the other 9 had cleared safely. He said that on aluminum the precision is far higher and any part from any unit will be guaranteed to fit on any other unit on the first attempt.

In the 2000s or thereabouts there was a lot of enthusiasm about aluminum and some manufacturers underestimated the safety margins. Siemens had a huge problem with their Combino type of streetcar, which developed cracks in the aluminum, which at first they thought they could fix, but then a test unit failed spectacularly during dynamic testing. Siemens had to recall the entire type, comprising hundreds of units from dozens of cities, and thoroughly rebuild them at huge cost. Our guide said another leading and respected manufacturer whose name starts with a B had had a similar problem, but had been better at hushing it up. I think lessons have been learned however, and today's aluminum vehicles are more solid. This may also make them heavier, lessening their advantage over steel.

 

[cirdan]

My understanding is that our Cascades Talgo Series 6s were good for 30 years. Had they not been taken out of service, and assuming a one- to two-year delay in getting our Cascades Airo trains into service (the official delivery date, according to WSDOT, is still December of next year), that would have just about worked out.

As far as I know, the oldest Talgo units to still see regular use in Spain are the Talgo IV, which were introduced from 1980, making them 44 years old now.

 

[jiml]

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