Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement RFP discussion H1 2024

[joelkfla]

• Toilet seats will be able to stay up on their own when the train is in motion. (A pet peeve of mine.)
• Toilets will flush automatically when "passenger is done using the toilet."

 

[Paniolo Man]

I am glad I shared the documents. It seems you bunch are much faster at reading through and finding the good bits than I am. I will quote the links to keep them on what is presently the front page.

Main Document (Download link)

Further Chapters (Download link)

This might be my favorite bit:

 

[joelkfla]

Interesting new accommodation types:
SoloSuites which are basically roomettes optimized for a single traveler with a larger seat.
Premium bedrooms which run the width of car - probably the closest Amtrak will come to a prestige class.

It does look like the lounge may be first class only, - coach would have access to a separate cafe car, but it does look like they are considering an option where on certain train sets the coach cars would have the same window configuration as the lounge so coach passengers wouldn’t miss out on the view.

The SoloSuite has a "smaller" side window, and it's the only room type with a skylight. There will be an adjacent mirror-image SoloSuite, with a removable partition between the two. And there is mention of a "nesting feature" between adjoining SoloSuites. Could this be an updated SlumberCoach?

 

[joelkfla]

Correction - I now found the figures on Page 11-317. It looks like recline will be 35 degrees on coach, and 40 degrees on premium coach. The premium coach seats will most likely be "The ACCESS Seat" by Factorydesign, based on the "Lazy-Z" branding.

Look again. It's 20° in coach: 105° upright to 125° reclined. It's 25° in Premium.

I couldn't find any specific mention of seat recline in sleepers, other than in SoloSuites and IIRC the Premium Bedroom.

 

[user 14106]

Standard Coach seats may be fixed with all seats on one side of the aisle facing one direction, and all seats on the opposite side of the aisle facing the opposite direction, OR seats may be rotatable. The spec says this is at Amtrak's option. So, in other words, they haven't decided yet whether seats will be 50/50 or rotatable.

Premium Coach seats WILL be rotatable.

Kind of sounds like Premium Coach seats are targeted at the long haul coach crowd riding overnight. I like the idea. Makes a quieter cabin for when you have the shuffle of the shorter distance passengers coming and going.

 

[Steve4031]

This is going to be completely new. These trains will be amazing when they do get them to work. I like the idea of the different levels of coach service. Still haven't completely grasped the sleeping car accommodations.

 

[rs9]

The premium coach and solo suite options definitely meet gaps in Amtrak's offerings. Excited to see how this proceeds.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Just started reading this most interesting and revealing document!

I already see a couple of interesting points on the "split trains" (Empire Builder, Texas Eagle & Sunset Ltd.):
* On the Empire Builder, the diner and first-class lounge will go with the Seattle section but both sections will have a cafe west of Spokane.
*With the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle, both will have a cafe, neither will have a first-class lounge and the diner will go with the Texas Eagle from San Antonio to Chicago, not the Sunset Ltd. from San Antonio to New Orleans.

For those advocating for an overnight accommodation between a coach seat and a roomette, the trains will apparently have:
*standard coach
*priority or premium coach (I presume something like business)
*SoloSuites, capitalized thus and grouped with the sleepers
*roomettes
*premium bedrooms
*club bedrooms
*accessible premium bedrooms
*accessible doubles
*accessible twin

Another Moronic decision from the Amtrak Suits for the Poor Texas Eaglete for the 30 Hour trip between Chicago and San Antonio!

And compounded by leaving the Sunset Ltd with no Lounge for the 48 Hour trip between LA and New Orleans!

Brilliant!

 

[jis]

Another Moronic decision from the Amtrak Suits for the Poor Texas Eaglete for the 30 Hour trip between Chicago and San Antonio!

And compounded by leaving the Sunset Ltd with no Lounge for the 48 Hour trip between LA and New Orleans!

Brilliant!

Hey! At least TE is getting the Diner, not the Sunset east of SAS! All for the lack of a First Class Lounge!

On a different matter, looks like the trucks must be capable of operating at upto Class 8 Max Speed (150-160mph), but the consists must be certified to operate at utpo only 110mph.

Interestingly, the trucks used under the Ventures are already capable of operating at 150mph, though not tested and certified for such in the US.

They remembered to specify linen closets in sleepers this time.

See Section 11.18 "Linen Closet"

In addition there is Section 11.19 "Consumable Supply Closet".

And Section 11.20 "Cleaning Supply Cabinet"

So there will be plenty of cabinets/closets.

 

[user 14106]

Look again. It's 20° in coach: 105° upright to 125° reclined. It's 25° in Premium.

I couldn't find any specific mention of seat recline in sleepers, other than in SoloSuites and IIRC the Premium Bedroom.

The SoloSuite has a "smaller" side window, and it's the only room type with a skylight. There will be an adjacent mirror-image SoloSuite, with a removable partition between the two. And there is mention of a "nesting feature" between adjoining SoloSuites. Could this be an updated SlumberCoach?

It reads to me more like a roomette with one larger seat for a solo occupant instead of the two. Would probably be priced between roomettes and club bedrooms.

 

[user 14106]

Another Moronic decision from the Amtrak Suits for the Poor Texas Eaglete for the 30 Hour trip between Chicago and San Antonio!

And compounded by leaving the Sunset Ltd with no Lounge for the 48 Hour trip between LA and New Orleans!

Brilliant!

Please keep in mind it lists those as “minimum capacities for that route.” They aren’t necessarily married to that - they are including the ability to alter consists seasonally.

 

[Railspike]

Another Moronic decision from the Amtrak Suits for the Poor Texas Eaglete for the 30 Hour trip between Chicago and San Antonio!

And compounded by leaving the Sunset Ltd with no Lounge for the 48 Hour trip between LA and New Orleans!

Brilliant!

I agree. As long as you have the budget and have the opportunity to order what cars are wanted by Amtrak customers, why not do so on all long distance trains? An additional lounge and diner could be attached/detached to the semi-permanent consist in San Antonio and stored for the next day's trip to Chicago. Amtrak does this now by storing an extra coach and sleeper as needed (emergencies, missed connections, etc) in San Antonio. Thus, both trains would have a diner and a lounge. Especially will be needed if the SL ever goes on a daily schedule.
If they're basing the proposed consist decisions on current ridership, I think this is a huge mistake. IMO new equipment is going to increase ridership system-wide, and ridership between Houston and NOL will increase dramatically if it ever becomes a daily train. So much for planning for the future.

 

[John Santos]

Look again. It's 20° in coach: 105° upright to 125° reclined. It's 25° in Premium.

I couldn't find any specific mention of seat recline in sleepers, other than in SoloSuites and IIRC the Premium Bedroom.

Arguably, no. It's a 20° RANGE of motion. The maximum recline is 35° in coach. The minimum is 15°, not vertical. Premium gets another 5°. Still not great, but much better than a maximum 20° recline would be.

Does it have extendable leg rests, or would your feet have to be supported by your smallest piece of luggage or a cross-bar that is part of the seat in front of you (which wouldn't exist in a seat in the front row or in either seat in a pair of facing rows?)

BTW, a contract specification is a list of what Amtrak wants, not necessarily what they will ultimately accept. Every bidder will have things they will say NO to, or say "available at an extra cost". If they can buy off the shelf seats that are used for thousands of coaches around the world that don't quite meet Amtrak's specs, or alternatively supply custom seats at a significantly higher price, they will mention that and Amtrak will have to negotiate. (Don't forget to forgo the undercoating, but the extended warranty might be a good idea!)

 

[jis]

Arguably, no. It's a 20° RANGE of motion. The maximum recline is 35° in coach. The minimum is 15°, not vertical. Premium gets another 5°. Still not great, but much better than a maximum 20° recline would be.

Right. Minimum recline is 105 deg, maximum is 125 deg (Fig 11-58)

For premium maximum is 130 deg (Fig 11-59).

Does it have extendable leg rests, or would your feet have to be supported by your smallest piece of luggage or a cross-bar that is part of the seat in front of you (which wouldn't exist in a seat in the front row or in either seat in a pair of facing rows?)

Both regular and premium seats have movable leg rest. For regular extendable to 35 deg (Fig 11-58), for premium extendable to 43 deg (Fig 11-59)

Incidentally, both Regular and Premium seats' reclining mechanism will require to have the seat pan move forward in addition to the back reclining so as not to burden the customer in the seat behind with the entire specified recline. So no seat backs reclining into their lap or laptop.

Also one of @Devil's Advocate 's pet peeve is fully addressed. No more intimate enforced cuddling between occupants of adjacent regular Coach Seats. There will be a arm rest between the two seats which if desired can be stowed away flush with the seat back in case of need for greater intimacy

 

[jis]

BTW, the Roomette (Fig 11-66 though 11-72) appears to be very similar to the Viewliner II Roomette minus the upper window AFAICT. It is now required that the upper berth is stowed up horizontally like in Viewliners..

It appears that the Solo Suites will have alternating forward and backward facing seats to enable the joining of two Suites with seats facing each other in the joint Suite.

The Diner as shown in Fig 11-123 is fully accessible for its entire length, as apparently is the Cafe in Fig 11-124

The SoloSuite has a "smaller" side window, and it's the only room type with a skylight. There will be an adjacent mirror-image SoloSuite, with a removable partition between the two. And there is mention of a "nesting feature" between adjoining SoloSuites. Could this be an updated SlumberCoach?

Maybe it is horizontal staggering of some sort like in Delta 1 Suites?

It reads to me more like a roomette with one larger seat for a solo occupant instead of the two. Would probably be priced between roomettes and club bedrooms.

And the special unique feature of wrap around window up top!

 

[BlackDiamond]

BTW, the Roomette (Fig 11-66 though 11-72) appears to be very similar to the Viewliner II Roomette minus the upper window AFAICT.

So they are retaining the Superliner's upper berth "coffin"

 

[jis]

So they are retaining the Superliner's upper berth "coffin"

In principle they could do the wrap around windows like proposed for the Solo Suites, in the Roomettes too, but I did not see any mention of it, or at least even if such is mentioned I missed it. 1300 pages is a loooot of pages. Of course in any case the vendors from proposing it is not precluded and see what Amtrak says.

 

[cocojacoby]

Yeah, i basically like most of what I see. It looks like the Solo-Suites are one window long so maybe they do nest into each other like the Delta One Suites but by facing each other so your feet go into the adjoining room? I am thinking the flat skylights would be much cheaper than a curved glass version and therefore might be utilized more often like in the bedrooms to prevent that upper berth claustrophobic feeling. Being able to sleep under the stars would be really unique. Having them in other cars like the diner, lounge and cafe would be awesome.

The full width luxury suite is going to be a nice option. The locking doors on the bedrooms should have been done a long time ago. So initially an interesting read.

I will strongly add that they have to go with rotating seats.

 

[joelkfla]

In principle they could do the wrap around windows like proposed for the Solo Suites, in the Roomettes too, but I did not see any mention of it, or at least even if such is mentioned I missed it. 1300 pages is a loooot of pages. Of course in any case the vendors from proposing it is not precluded and see what Amtrak says.

There's a table that lists all of the required features for sleepers and which accommodation types require them, and the SoloSuite is the only one that has the skylight checked off.

Maybe it is horizontal staggering of some sort like in Delta 1 Suites?

I get the impression that there is some sort of overlap of the ottoman/foot of bed between adjacent SoloSuites, but it's hard to visualize with the diagrams being not viewable.

 

[cocojacoby]

BTW, the Roomette (Fig 11-66 though 11-72) appears to be very similar to the Viewliner II Roomette minus the upper window AFAICT. It is now required that the upper berth is stowed up horizontally like in Viewliners..

They seem to be saying you can make the windows as big as possible so there is the possibility that the bedrooms could have windows right up to the roof rail.

 

[jis]

They seem to be saying you can make the windows as big as possible so there is the possibility that the bedrooms could have windows right up to the roof rail.

Good point.

I will strongly add that they have to go with rotating seats.

In the RFP they have kept that option open as something that Amtrak might use. See page 11-79 for example in the section titles "Seat Rotation".

 

[user 14106]

For whoever had the maintenance concerns it says right in there that they will be including a TSSSA (pronounced "T Triple S A" - stands for technical services and spares supply agreement) with the trainsets which is the same regime they are using for the ALC42s and that the Airos will also use so there will be more involvement by the vendor. The TSSSA provides not only technical services but also guarantees regarding lead times for parts. Amtrak's deal with Siemens on the ALC 42 units also includes financial penalties for Siemens for service disruptions that are the fault of the equipment.

 

[joelkfla]

I'm a bit concerned about them finding a vendor for the elevators. The list of requirements is quite extensive. The vendor who supplied them to Alaska RR is out of business, IIRC.

 

[JermyZP]

I found a concept design for the coach car structure. This is going to be used for most coaches(except the end coach) , solo sleeper car, dinner, and the first class lounge. There are more concept designs but they are blown out by contrast.

 

[GDRRiley]

I'm a bit concerned about them finding a vendor for the elevators. The list of requirements is quite extensive. The vendor who supplied them to Alaska RR is out of business, IIRC.

Stadler just build 10 cars for RM that feature elevators