Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement RFP discussion H1 2024

[PVD]

The stuff used for 787 windows takes forever to change from one setting to another. While that may be suitable for a building it is not suitable for a moving vehicle where you pretty much want the window shade state to change instantaneously when you want. The scene you thought you wanted to see and photograph would be long gone by the time the shade changes state from blocked to clear, and even then there are distortions that remain. On many occasions I found myself punching the stupid button to try to get it to move faster while the mountain I was trying to photograph below passed away out of site and the window was still not clear of the weird blue/purple tint of various opacity. Terrible thing to have on a moving train IMHO.

In addition, many iterations of those systems allow cabin crews to take control of all windows. Imagine the system failing enroute, and good luck getting an electronic tech to fix it. Curtain or shade n/g I can switch seats, system down and the whole car is screwed. Shades/blinds are much simpler. The fanatical obsession with weight reduction in airplane mfr is not a railcar thing.

 

[cocojacoby]

But for windows next to me my preference always will be good old fashioned human hand operated shades.

But Amtrak doesn't have shades

Now reaching way back into my memory brain cells, and I really don't know if I am right about this, but I kind of remember the original Viewliners had internal shades on the interior windows. They proved to be problematic so the curtains were added. Does anyone remember this or was I hallucinating?

 

[jis]

But Amtrak doesn't have shades

I am fine with curtains. Actually looks classier than the modern day shade stuff

 

[Mailliw]

There's something to be said for the KISS principle. Just imagine the fallout if there was a glitch that suddenly switched all the windows in a sleeping car to transparent while passengers were engaging in private activities.

 

[lrh442]

Fascinating read! Thank you, Paniolo Man for making these available.

I am struck be the incredible complexity of the specifications and wonder if Amtrak will find multiple bidders, and if the bids will be deemed affordable. The Superliner IIs cost about $2.3M each in 1991, which is $5.2M today adjusted for inflation. I would expect that the new bi-level LD equip as-spec'd could cost twice that amount. The amount of tech and custom-engineering is staggering. If Amtrak plans to purchase 500 cars (which would replace the SL fleet but not allow for increased frequencies or new routes), the price tag comes out to a tidy $5 Billion.

Have funds been carved out in the IIJA or other funding mechanisms for this?

 

[jis]

Fascinating read! Thank you, Paniolo Man for making these available.

I am struck be the incredible complexity of the specifications and wonder if Amtrak will find multiple bidders, and if the bids will be deemed affordable. The Superliner IIs cost about $2.3M each in 1991, which is $5.2M today adjusted for inflation. I would expect that the new bi-level LD equip as-spec'd could cost twice that amount. The amount of tech and custom-engineering is staggering. If Amtrak plans to purchase 500 cars (which would replace the SL fleet but not allow for increased frequencies or new routes), the price tag comes out to a tidy $5 Billion.

Have funds been carved out in the IIJA or other funding mechanisms for this?

The Airo order of $7.3 Billion is already funded. There is over $20 Billion left in the pot for capital investment. That together with parts of annual appropriations over ten years should be enough to fund the bi-level order followed by a single level order to replace the remaining old stock in the single level fleet.

 

[Steve4031]

Amtrak really needs to think about doubling the order IMHO because this will allow them to expand service on new routes like the ones recently suggested on the pie-in-the-sky suggestions such as connecting routes from north to south in the mountain states as well as a Chicago to Florida train.

 

[jis]

Amtrak really needs to think about doubling the order IMHO because this will allow them to expand service on new routes like the ones recently suggested on the pie-in-the-sky suggestions such as connecting routes from north to south in the mountain states as well as a Chicago to Florida train.

They will add options that can be transitioned to an order using previously agreed pricing. You cannot just order stuff without knowing specifically what you will do with them. OIG and Congress will go berserk if you do too much of that except in the Department of Defense perhaps.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

But Amtrak doesn't have shades

Now reaching way back into my memory brain cells, and I really don't know if I am right about this, but I kind of remember the original Viewliners had internal shades on the interior windows. They proved to be problematic so the curtains were added. Does anyone remember this or was I hallucinating?

Yes the original viewliners had an internal blind that would pulled down to block the view. The problem was they used rubber bands to roll them up. The bands broke very easily and of course it was then sideways semi-open or semi-closed.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

I am struck be the incredible complexity of the specifications and wonder if Amtrak will find multiple bidders, and if the bids will be deemed affordable.

Detailed engineering standards documents like this are scattered around between NIST, NGEC, maybe elsewhere.* Amtrak's own site seems to have them only for site work and right-of-way protection, etc. Over on the FOIA section of Amtrak, it hosts some "frequently requested" ones. Many ADA reports go there and are informative beyond just ADA considerations.

While it's true an RFP full of engineering might seem like government stuff, they are charged with spending public money, and safety and standards.

Random NIST tech spec from 2011: PRIIA 305 Next-Generation Equipment Committee Single-Level Passenger Rail Cars. The documents get updated rather the recreated anew. Many have annotations for the next version. The NIST search feature does not work to find such things.

Over on NGEC, many tech specs are listed here: https://ngec.org/resources/ but they all link to an email address rather than a PDF. (Perhaps this is new? I don't recall exactly where I saw more of these things though.) This PRIIA 305 (I don't know what it stands for) list of documents from June 2022 is another way to see the scope of 305: https://ngec.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/PRIIA-Technical-Document-List-2022June-1.pdf

(*) When I was looking for a timeline for the new Newport News station, I found the city was updating the expected completions of the various contracts online. I've only seen that kind of stuff on local government web sites, not state or federal, but who knows.

 

[cocojacoby]

Yes the original viewliners had an internal blind that would pulled down to block the view. The problem was they used rubber bands to roll them up. The bands broke very easily and of course it was then sideways semi-open or semi-closed.

AH . . . thanks so much.

 

[sportbiker]

They will add options that can be transitioned to an order using previously agreed pricing. You cannot just order stuff without knowing specifically what you will do with them. OIG and Congress will go berserk if you do too much of that except in the Department of Defense perhaps.

My hope is that the order is configured somehow, someway to keep the production line open long-term, for possible route expansion and replacement of wrecked equipment. Our start-stop approach to equipment purchases prevents the build-up of institutional knowledge, a trained workforce, robust supply chains, etc. It seems like every order is a start-from-zero affair with predictable results such as CAF's Viewliners or Nippon Sharyo's (?) bi-levels.

 

[Cal]

Can you elaborate a bit?

Bombardier Transportation has intelligent on-blur windows in the Bombardier Innovia APM 100 operating on Singapore's Bukit Panjang LRT line, to prevent passengers from peering into apartments while the train is moving[21] and is planning to offer windows using smart glass technology in its Flexity 2 light rail vehicles.[22]

That’s Singapore. Amtrak is not so tech saavy. Keeping things low maintenance would be ideal IMO.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

With the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle, both will have a cafe, neither will have a first-class lounge and the diner will go with the Texas Eagle from San Antonio to Chicago, not the Sunset Ltd. from San Antonio to New Orleans.

I prefer lounges and diners on all LD trains, but if we can't have that then picking daily to Chicago over thrice weekly to New Orleans makes sense.

On a different matter, looks like the trucks must be capable of operating at upto Class 8 Max Speed (150-160mph), but the consists must be certified to operate at utpo only 110mph.

Is there a benefit to this, such as moving faster during repositioning moves?

Also one of @Devil's Advocate 's pet peeve is fully addressed. No more intimate enforced cuddling between occupants of adjacent regular Coach Seats. There will be a arm rest between the two seats which if desired can be stowed away flush with the seat back in case of need for greater intimacy

Excellent news. Removing the armrest probably made sense in whatever era that decision was made, but in today's world it makes no sense at all, especially when Amtrak still refuses to sell two adjoining seats to one passenger.

One thing I want to add is that Amtrak should consider "Smart Glass" for the windows.

In my opinion self-tinting glass is the single worst aspect of flying the B787. I don't like the look, the operation, or the lockout "feature."

But only if a rigorous preventative maintenance ( PM ) program is instituted.

*Preventive

 

[JP1822]

I think each sleeping car has a common shower for roomette and solo passengers. The crew accommodation is in the utility car, right? What's on the lower level of the lounge car? That seems like a good spot to add extra sleeper space.

There is sleeper space on the lower level of the lounge car, as well as the cafe car! Until there's full renderings of the cars released, hard to say what's what with "common showers" and "common bathrooms." Only seeing specs for the common shower in the Utility Car, separate crew shower is listed.

 

[user 14106]

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...Annual-Report-FY2025-Grant-Request.pdf#page65

Amtraks FY request is out - notably this coming fiscal year will have the first pay out towards the LD re fleeting ($407 milllion.)

 

[jis]

Is there a benefit to this, such as moving faster during repositioning moves?

I don't know what the implication is. Perhaps they want the trucks to be ready to ease future certification at higher speed.

The dead in tow speed requirement is 90mph BTW. It is spelled out in the document.

 

[Fenu S]

One thing I want to add is that Amtrak should consider "Smart Glass" for the windows. That would make a very modern clean look without the hassle of curtains or shades which can be a hassle in many ways. This would be especially great for the "Sky Lights".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_glass

Rocky Mountaineer uses this right? Or at least something similar:

• Dimmable domed windows: The upper level windows use a suspended particle device layer, which can be dimmed to moderate the intensity of incoming sunlight. This is similar technology to what is used in luxury yachts and business jets.

https://www.rockymountaineer.com/me...capacity-new-luxury-rail-cars-seven-glassdome

 

[Mailliw]

Unless I missed something neither the end coach or the utility car can connect to a single-level car. Which makes sense since the utility car  is the baggage car, but it probably means an end to private varnish (unless old Superliners end up in private hands).

 

[jis]

Unless I missed something neither the end coach or the utility car can connect to a single-level car. Which makes sense since the utility car  is the baggage car, but it probably means an end to private varnish (unless old Superliners end up in private hands).

All that you need to connect a private car is an H Coupler and train line, Comms and HEP Connector which the end cars will have. So no problem adding PV. In particular a gangway connection is not necessary.

 

[joelkfla]

There is sleeper space on the lower level of the lounge car, as well as the cafe car! Until there's full renderings of the cars released, hard to say what's what with "common showers" and "common bathrooms." Only seeing specs for the common shower in the Utility Car, separate crew shower is listed.

This is on p. 1-6:

• On levels with roomettes and/or SoloSuites, one communal shower must be provided for every 22 potential passengers in those accommodations.
• On levels with roomettes and/or SoloSuites, one restroom must be provided for every 15 potential passengers in those accommodations.

I assume "level" is within a car.

 

[joelkfla]

I think each sleeping car has a common shower for roomette and solo passengers. The crew accommodation is in the utility car, right? What's on the lower level of the lounge car? That seems like a good spot to add extra sleeper space.

The lounge has 1 Premium Bedroom and 4 Roomettes on the LL, and an Accessible Double BR on the UL. The UL seems like an odd place to put a bedroom; perhaps that was an error.

 

[joelkfla]

It's an interesting "mix" of sleeper space in the new proposed LD fleet consist, but I am surprised they are going with EIGHT of the Club Rooms that technically sleep four people. Missing seems to be the traditional larger bedroom (e.g. what are now rooms A through E on a Superliner Sleeper). But the Solo Suite may be a better option with no upper level berth and a divider that can open up. Still would have smaller space overall though, I would think. But then there is a cool overhead "skylight window."

The Solo Suite is not comparable to the current Bedroom, as it has no bath. IMO, the Club BR replaces the Bedroom; they just expanded the berths to accommodate up to 4.

Appears each sleeper car has only ONE or TWO common bathrooms and I am only seeing ONE common shower for passengers for the whole consist - in the Utility Car. That's all for passengers in the Solo Suites or bedrooms that don't have bathrooms or showers in their rooms. Not making any absolutes on that, just saying that's what I am seeing from the charts. The proposed new LD equipment is an interesting mix of sleepers though, and it does call for an increase of sleeper rooms and berths.

There will be at least 1 community bath & 1 community shower for each level that has Roomettes or SoloSuites.

PS - How two people would be able to get into the upper berth of the Club Bedroom seems like an acrobatic exercise!!! LOL!

I think once you get up there, it would be fairly easy for an able-bodied person to slide or roll over to the wall. You'd just want to make sure the top sheet is pulled back beforehand.

 

[JermyZP]

There is a concept design of the layout of the club bedroom but the contrast was blown out. There is enough to see what the layout could be. It looks like when you enter the room you have a small vanity with a sink on one side and the shower on the other side. They could have the vanity layout to act like or turned into a vertical ladder to access to upper berth.

 

[Mailliw]

I think the black space next to the shower is steps and the table next to the vanity is meant to be a nightstand. I hope better images come out sooner rather than later.