Marriott food on pre Amtrak Auto Train

[fixj]

The pre-Amtrak Auto Train used Marriott Corp to cater all the meals on board. Marriott had kitchens at both Sanford and Lorton. I have not seen any of the menus, but I understand those meals were well received. If Marriott can supply good food on long distance trains, why can’t Amtrak copy their formula?

 

[railiner]

The pre-Amtrak Auto Train used Marriott Corp to cater all the meals on board. Marriott had kitchens at both Sanford and Lorton. I have not seen any of the menus, but I understand those meals were well received. If Marriott can supply good food on long distance trains, why can’t Amtrak copy their formula?

They can...if they want.

 

[jiml]

One of Marriott's main businesses used to be airline catering, so not a stretch.

 

[PVD]

I believe that business unit merged with and is now Sodexho" AFAIK nothing stops them from bidding at the next opportunity.

 

[Dakota 400]

I believe that business unit merged with and is now Sodexho" AFAIK nothing stops them from bidding at the next opportunity.

That is correct as I recall Marriott's businesses over the years.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

The pre-Amtrak Auto Train ...


..., why can’t Amtrak copy their formula?

You mean the bankruptcy formula ?

 

[Old MM]

That was long ago history, the senior Marriott and his wife starting a successful business catering airline flights that became a hotel empire. Unfortunately, the dedication to detail and quality is not going to be found in any large scale food operation today.

 

[Siegmund]

Amtrak knowing how to provide tasty fresh food prepared in a Superliner diner, however, was much less ancient history. I hope there are still a few folks left who remember how it was done!

 

[20th Century Rider]

The pre-Amtrak Auto Train used Marriott Corp to cater all the meals on board. Marriott had kitchens at both Sanford and Lorton. I have not seen any of the menus, but I understand those meals were well received. If Marriott can supply good food on long distance trains, why can’t Amtrak copy their formula?

Because Amtrak wants to pennies... there are a whole bunch of catering companies that can supply prepared meals. That said... the trend worldwide is for passengers to purchase food on trains or at the stations before boarding... regardless of class of travel. This isn't a bad idea... if then Amtrak brings down the soaring prices of sleeping accommodations.

When one sits all day long those 'traditional dining' meals are way to much food... yet we feel compelled to eat it because we've paid for it with sleeper ticket. It seems that changing the model completely would be better for all... allowing passengers greater control of their food needs and paying less.

Pricing transparency is a whole other issue.

 

[IndyLions]

...That said... the trend worldwide is for passengers to purchase food on trains or at the stations before boarding... regardless of class of travel. This isn't a bad idea... if then Amtrak brings down the soaring prices of sleeping accommodations...

There you go dreaming again

If they eliminated “free” food tomorrow, they wouldn’t drop sleeper prices one nickel - unless demand dropped to the point where they couldn’t come close to filling the sleepers. With their limited supply of sleepers, that would take a year or two to happen, if ever.

Yes, they had that experiment with the Silver Star and Silver Meteor. But I bet their takeaway from that experiment was that the difference in price didn’t matter one bit. A majority of people picked their Silver based on schedule or a dozen other reasons – and not the price difference or food difference. It certainly didn’t have a big enough impact to prevent either Silver from running full.

Also, I think the trend you are referencing is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. Yes that trend is real - but for trips that are far shorter, and/or with countries with far different demographics than we have here. If the Canadians start doing that post-Covid, that would be a valid comparison. But the Europeans or Asians, not so much.

 

[IndyLions]

...It seems that changing the model completely would be better for all... allowing passengers greater control of their food needs...

On certain routes, I could see were changing the food model might truly be better for all, as you state. But again – it wouldn’t result in paying less.

For single night routes, I could see where a Starbucks/Au Bon Pain/Pub model with a dedicated Lounge Attendant could work.

Serve cafe food in the morning (fruit/pastries/breakfast sandwiches), fresh options for lunch/dinner (soups, salads, sandwiches) and coffees/beer/wine/appetizers/desserts at all other times. Everything’s ala carte - and the environment is a little elegant and slightly more upscale than what’s in the standard lounge.

It absolutely would not work on two night routes, but if it’s the first night or the third night on a cross country – it would probably be an OK change from full dining service.

 

[jiml]

That was long ago history, the senior Marriott and his wife starting a successful business catering airline flights that became a hotel empire. Unfortunately, the dedication to detail and quality is not going to be found in any large scale food operation today.

"Detail and Quality" unfortunately are no longer in Marriott corporate vernacular, and it pains me greatly to feel that way.

 

[jimdex]

If they eliminated “free” food tomorrow, they wouldn’t drop sleeper prices one nickel - unless demand dropped to the point where they couldn’t come close to filling the sleepers. With their limited supply of sleepers, that would take a year or two to happen, if ever.

If, as you suggest, eliminating complimentary meals would not result in reduced demand, then it's hard to make a business case for providing the free meals in the first place.

 

[20th Century Rider]

On certain routes, I could see were changing the food model might truly be better for all, as you state. But again – it wouldn’t result in paying less.

For single night routes, I could see where a Starbucks/Au Bon Pain/Pub model with a dedicated Lounge Attendant could work.

Serve cafe food in the morning (fruit/pastries/breakfast sandwiches), fresh options for lunch/dinner (soups, salads, sandwiches) and coffees/beer/wine/appetizers/desserts at all other times. Everything’s ala carte - and the environment is a little elegant and slightly more upscale than what’s in the standard lounge.

It absolutely would not work on two night routes, but if it’s the first night or the third night on a cross country – it would probably be an OK change from full dining service.

Your idea may be a good model for eastern routes however overnight service may become a thing of the past unless modernized and 'speeded up.'

Transcon travel is 6 hours on a plane or three nights and four days by passenger rail. There is a 'rail' solution however it's too costly to happen here...

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/china-high-speed-maglev-train-intl-hnk/index.html

 

[me_little_me]

There you go dreaming again

If they eliminated “free” food tomorrow, they wouldn’t drop sleeper prices one nickel - unless demand dropped to the point where they couldn’t come close to filling the sleepers. With their limited supply of sleepers, that would take a year or two to happen, if ever.

Because of the attitude that each segment of the train has to make money (or lose less money), including food in the price for sleeper passengers reduces the "loss" on the service. The result of eliminating the included meals IMHO will mean that fewer people will buy meals there (especially with the "flex" menus and their high list price for what you get). That means the diner is less justified so it will eventually go. Amtrak just doesn't want to say to themselves "How can we offer a product appealing enough at the right price to get enough business to justify the diners?" Instead, they just would rather lower the quality of service to get outsiders to go along with getting rid of the business.
They do the same thing with the cafes. Why would any company allow its outlets to repeatedly run out of food to sell? You don't make money that way and your costs to provide the service do not go down.
And it has NOTHING to do with Covid.
Amtrak LD caters solely to those who can't or won't fly and has no interest in increasing its business. They can always keep prices up by reducing supply (fewer cars per train) even if they dump included food or any other amenities. Eventually, they can dump a route because too few people are taking it.

 

[Dakota 400]

"Detail and Quality" unfortunately are no longer in Marriott corporate vernacular, and it pains me greatly to feel that way.

Don't agree, but, that's OK. We all have the right to our own opinions.

 

[20th Century Rider]

Don't agree, but, that's OK. We all have the right to our own opinions.

Am also very disappointed about Marriot's thirst, hunger, and desperate ploys at extracting money from their long faithful clients... we've had this discussion before... Marriot's loyalty program closes the book of it's validity.

"Detail and quality" have long faded at Marriot."

BTW I've been a member of Marriot and Sheraton for over 25 years... and I'm a gold. Da Ya know what that means?

Not much.

 

[Dakota 400]

Am also very disappointed about Marriot's thirst, hunger, and desperate ploys at extracting money from their long faithful clients... we've had this discussion before... Marriot's loyalty program closes the book of it's validity.

"Detail and quality" have long faded at Marriot."

BTW I've been a member of Marriot and Sheraton for over 25 years... and I'm a gold. Da Ya know what that means?

Not much.

I understand and I do share some of your thoughts about their loyalty program even as a Platinum Elite member. (Or, at least, I think I am; their jiggling of status levels becomes confusing for me.)

 

[IndyLions]

Because of the attitude that each segment of the train has to make money (or lose less money), including food in the price for sleeper passengers reduces the "loss" on the service. The result of eliminating the included meals IMHO will mean that fewer people will buy meals there (especially with the "flex" menus and their high list price for what you get). That means the diner is less justified so it will eventually go. Amtrak just doesn't want to say to themselves "How can we offer a product appealing enough at the right price to get enough business to justify the diners?" Instead, they just would rather lower the quality of service to get outsiders to go along with getting rid of the business.
They do the same thing with the cafes. Why would any company allow its outlets to repeatedly run out of food to sell? You don't make money that way and your costs to provide the service do not go down.
And it has NOTHING to do with Covid.
Amtrak LD caters solely to those who can't or won't fly and has no interest in increasing its business. They can always keep prices up by reducing supply (fewer cars per train) even if they dump included food or any other amenities. Eventually, they can dump a route because too few people are taking it.

I know I make it hard for people to believe from some of my posts – but I am very pro-diner.

Food service in general, and diners in particular - are a really important service for promoting the use of the long-distance network, especially by sleeper passengers. And sleeper passengers represent not only added revenue but a stronger bottom line on any LD train.

Anderson was laser focused on the law, and reaching “self-sufficiency” on the operating side. That was a bad combination for diner service, resulting in all kinds of downgrades. I think he knew that sleeper demand would eventually be negatively impacted, but not before he could earn his gold star by hitting the FY break even point.

With new leadership and the elimination of the silly Mica rule, there is zero reason the race to the bottom has to continue. And if the new management is at all competent, it won’t.

 

[jiml]

Don't agree, but, that's OK. We all have the right to our own opinions.

I understand and I do share some of your thoughts about their loyalty program even as a Platinum Elite member. (Or, at least, I think I am; their jiggling of status levels becomes confusing for me.)

I remained an apologist for Marriott for a long time. As a first-year member of their loyalty program I have watched them transform from the best, most customer focused hotel chain to a seller of hotel franchises. The customers matter less now than their stakeholders - the franchisees. They were already sliding a bit when they acquired Starwood (Sheraton et al), the slope got slipperier when they farmed out their customer service and they gutted their program even prior to the pandemic problems. As you say, we all have our own opinions and it took a long time before I finally accepted the facts.

Lifetime Titanium by the way.

 

[trainman74]

Any facts or opinions about the state of Marriott's hotels, or anything else to do with the Marriott corporation circa 2021, has nothing to do with the quality of food that could be provided to Amtrak...

...because Marriott isn't in the institutional food service/catering business anymore. As previously noted in this thread, Marriott merged that operation with the Sodexho corporation (now spelled Sodexo) in 1998, and then completely sold their interest in 2001.

 

[20th Century Rider]

I know I make it hard for people to believe from some of my posts – but I am very pro-diner.

Food service in general, and diners in particular - are a really important service for promoting the use of the long-distance network, especially by sleeper passengers. And sleeper passengers represent not only added revenue but a stronger bottom line on any LD train.

Anderson was laser focused on the law, and reaching “self-sufficiency” on the operating side. That was a bad combination for diner service, resulting in all kinds of downgrades. I think he knew that sleeper demand would eventually be negatively impacted, but not before he could earn his gold star by hitting the FY break even point.

With new leadership and the elimination of the silly Mica rule, there is zero reason the race to the bottom has to continue. And if the new management is at all competent, it won’t.

I like what you said... cause nothing is nicer than a diner!

And I agree the diner and complimentary food is necessary for the 3 day 2 night trips on Western Routes [4 days 3 nights for the Eagle and the Sunset into FLA - if it ever comes back.] But dining services hang on the continuation of LD service... we need to see what's in the crystal ball for Amtrak...

'Amtrak Joe' is a positive and analytical thinker when it comes to passenger rail... but he has mountains to climb to save lives, save the economy... and... but... when it comes to the environment we may see some sunlight shine upon Amtrak!

That is if he can keep congress pointed in the right direction!

 

[fdaley]

If they eliminated “free” food tomorrow, they wouldn’t drop sleeper prices one nickel - unless demand dropped to the point where they couldn’t come close to filling the sleepers. With their limited supply of sleepers, that would take a year or two to happen, if ever.

I think the switch to flex meals was already starting to reduce sleeper demand even before the pandemic. In the last holiday season before Covid (2019), I recall checking the availability of sleeper space on the Lake Shore Limited. From Dec. 23 through Jan. 2, there were roomettes available (as of mid-December) at the lowest normal bucket price (about $350) from Albany to Chicago on all but two nights during the period. Based on my past experience trying to book holiday season travel, I am quite sure this would not have been the case in prior years. Also during that 2019 holiday week, I was able to book, quite late in the game, a bedroom for day use on the Crescent, New York to Lynchburg, at the lowest normal price; again, I do not think I would have been able to do this in past years.

Amtrak also had a couple of "roomette sales" in late 2019, after the switch to flex food throughout the east. These sales appeared to be an effort to entice new customers to try sleeper travel in the face of slumping bookings from the normal sleeper clientele. (I wonder how many first-time sleeper travelers they actually attracted -- and how many of them vowed never to ride again?)

In any case, I am not sure if the drop-off in business is bad enough to meet Amtrak's metric for lowering sleeper prices, if such a metric even exists. But definitely I agree that the smarter course for Amtrak would be to stop the bleeding by restoring diner service or at least making a substantial improvement to its food offerings.

 

[Dakota 400]

I remained an apologist for Marriott for a long time. As a first-year member of their loyalty program I have watched them transform from the best, most customer focused hotel chain to a seller of hotel franchises. The customers matter less now than their stakeholders - the franchisees. They were already sliding a bit when they acquired Starwood (Sheraton et al), the slope got slipperier when they farmed out their customer service and they gutted their program even prior to the pandemic problems. As you say, we all have our own opinions and it took a long time before I finally accepted the facts.

Lifetime Titanium by the way.

Your post is well received by me. Unless I am mistaken, the major source of income for the Corporation is from franchisees fees which is different from when I first made my first investment in Marriott. I don't see the Starwood acquisition as a negative. As a customer--trying to use or earn points--I am given more choices. The same when since they have acquired the Canadian hotel chain. But, there is a potential downside to becoming "bigger". Significantly more difficult to control the product quality provided to the guest. Holland America Line is a company with which I am very familiar that has suffered that. The fleet grew; the guest experience varied widely from "property", i.e. ship, to "property".

I will still choose a Marriott property over those of a few other Companies.

 

[jiml]

I will still choose a Marriott property over those of a few other Companies.

I still do - just not with the same blind loyalty as in the past. (They want us to stop talking about this, so if you have any other thoughts feel free to PM.)