"Maximum" Speed on NEC

[acelafan]

Did some traveling on the NEC over the past 2 weeks and had my laptop GPS with me. I noticed that some of the regional trains I traveled did not attain a full 125mph where allowed. The #152 from WAS to PHL routinely reached 125 but my return on the #143 "only" reached 120-121 mph through the same area. Granted it's only a few mph difference, but I couldn't help but think that the slightly slower speed contributed to the train running 10-12 minutes behind schedule. #152 had an AEM loco but the #143 was an HHP (couldn't get the #s of either, though). Could a different locomotive that cause a difference in maximum speed? Or the engineer or conductor stipulated a slightly less maximum speed than 125mph? I had the same experience on the #190 from WAS to PVD on Monday July 20th...we never quite made it to 125mph but I am not sure what locomotive we had. Just curious for any thoughts.

 

[the_traveler]

It just says that Regional can travel UP TO 125 MPH and AE can travel UP TO 135 MPH! It does not say that they HAVE TO!

For many years after the AE was introduced, they advertised that it travels up to 150 MPH between WAS and BOS! They never said that on the entire 500+ mile journey, it only reached 150 MPH in 2 stretches in RI - a 15 mile segment and a 3 mile segment!

 

[acelafan]

Ah, I figured! I first thought Amtrak would run at full speed to make the timetable - but the timetable must not be based on max speed given routine track maintenance, varying station dwell times, etc.

Are there plans to upgrade the catenary from WAS-NHV to allow faster speeds? There's a nice stretch of straight track through NJ which Acela is just dying to reach 150mph.

 

[George Harris]

The saving in increasing the maximum speed from 135 mph to 150 mph is pitifully small. More would be gained by increasing the speed between Philadelphia to and through Zoo Interlocking and in the departure from Washington Union Station. It would take 22.5 miles of running at 150 mph instead of 135 mph to save just ONE minute.

 

[Acela150]

The AEM-7's have a slow rate of acceleration but the HHP's have a high rate of it. So them AEM-7's would take a little while longer to get to 125 compared to the HHP. The engineer picks what speed to run in the limit provided by Amtrak. It could be a 135 zone but the train could go 110 for all we care. Like the traveler said it doesn't say you MUST go 125 or 150 or whatever speed limit is set. It's basically a suggestion of speed. The majority of engineers will run the max speed as the NEC can be very busy during peak hours and especially the Wednesday and Sunday before and after Thanksgiving as they add extra trains to handle the crowds. This past year I heard was pretty sad on ridership numbers.

 

[battalion51]

You also have some timid Engineers out there. Some of the guys will push the envelope hard and hit 125/126 whereas others lay back a little bit. You also have to think about the schedule factor, if there's long dwell time at a station ahead they may hang back a little to keep the train moving. Also if he's following another train he may be doing 120 to not trip the Cab Signal down to an Approach if he's too close.

 

[DET63]

It just says that Regional can travel UP TO 125 MPH and AE can travel UP TO 135 MPH! It does not say that they HAVE TO!
For many years after the AE was introduced, they advertised that it travels up to 150 MPH between WAS and BOS! They never said that on the entire 500+ mile journey, it only reached 150 MPH in 2 stretches in RI - a 15 mile segment and a 3 mile segment!

A 15-mile segment at 150 mph would be covered in 1/10 of an hour, or 6 minutes. A 3-mile segment at 150 mph would be covered in 3/150, or 1/50 of an hour, which is a little over a minute (1:12, to be exact—assuming the distance to be covered at 150 mph is exactly 3.0 miles). IOW, if you're expecting to see the train going 150 mph, don't blink or you'll miss it—even if you're on it!

 

[acelafan]

As simple as this discussion seems I find it fascinating and actually I noticed exactly what battalion51 indicated. Some trains have pushed 126 for a few seconds and of course I love it because the speed competes better with air and bus service in northeast. The departure out of WAS doesn't seem too slow, but areas near PHL seem like the trains are crawling (45 mph?). Also it would be great if the tracks in SE Connecticut could be straightened and grade crossings removed to speed things up. But the massive amount of engineering (and property acquisitions?) would probably chew threw several billion dollars pretty quickly. New London is a real choke point...extremely scenic but slow. I love the NEC...just want it to be the best it can be.

 

[the_traveler]

if you're expecting to see the train going 150 mph, don't blink or you'll miss it—even if you're on it!

I wish I had a better picture of this, but KIN station has about a 12-14 car platform. This picture is about midway. There is a bridge about the same distance behind this location as to the end of the platform in view (just beyond the last sign).

KIN platform

AE passes thru KIN at speed (140-150 MPH)! I have been standing near the end of the platform, and the AE has gone under the bridge - before I even feel the wind of it passing!

 

[acelafan]

Sorry, meant to say I understand now why PHL is a slow spot with the Zoo interlocking. Might that area be improved as well?

 

[DET63]

Acela at Kingston:

 

[George Harris]

As simple as this discussion seems I find it fascinating and actually I noticed exactly what battalion51 indicated. Some trains have pushed 126 for a few seconds and of course I love it because the speed competes better with air and bus service in northeast. The departure out of WAS doesn't seem too slow, but areas near PHL seem like the trains are crawling (45 mph?). Also it would be great if the tracks in SE Connecticut could be straightened and grade crossings removed to speed things up. But the massive amount of engineering (and property acquisitions?) would probably chew threw several billion dollars pretty quickly. New London is a real choke point...extremely scenic but slow. I love the NEC...just want it to be the best it can be.

The other issue in southern Connecticut is a number of drawbridges, usually combined with slow curves adjacent. The number of trains on this segment is limited due to many complaints by the will heeled weekend admirals that don't want to wait to get their beautiful boats through the draw. (What is a yacht? A hole in the water that you have to regularly pour money into in large quantities.) Replacemetn of these bridges with higher structures and straighter approaches would do wonders both for run time and for reliability.

New London: that is a major problem that would require a complete relocation of a few miles to fix.

 

[the_traveler]

New London is a real choke point...extremely scenic but slow.

New London: that is a major problem that would require a complete relocation of a few miles to fix.

The other problem with NLC is that right across the track from the station are the docks for the ferries to Long Island, Block Island and Fishers Island! I don't see any way to eliminate those 3 grade crossings within 1/2 mile or so! (Including one which is right next to the station - and Amtrak passengers must use to reach the other track.)

 

[B&Ofan]

New London is a real choke point...extremely scenic but slow.

New London: that is a major problem that would require a complete relocation of a few miles to fix.

The other problem with NLC is that right across the track from the station are the docks for the ferries to Long Island, Block Island and Fishers Island! I don't see any way to eliminate those 3 grade crossings within 1/2 mile or so! (Including one which is right next to the station - and Amtrak passengers must use to reach the other track.)

When the railroad was owned by the New Haven they realized the limitations of the shore line route and had bought a new route. The problem was this was the 50's and the writing was on the wall for passenger trains so the sold it off. That land is now being used for I95. Quite tragic if you ask me because I image with a faster routing, less then 3 hours from Boston to New York would be possible.

 

[acelafan]

All true and it is tragic...the limitations with the bridges, curved tracks and grade crossings in southern CT really chew up time. It must have been really bad before the tracks were electrified and some of the curvy parts "straightened".

With the Niantic bridge being replaced next year, does anyone know what speed Amtrak will be able to attain while crossing? I believe it's 45mph now. Assuming they can cross at 75mph with the new bridge the trains should save a few minutes since they won't have to slow and then accelerate again. But there are so many choke points in that area...really unfortunate since the other part of the route to Boston is pretty darn quick.

 

[DET63]

The saving in increasing the maximum speed from 135 mph to 150 mph is pitifully small. More would be gained by increasing the speed between Philadelphia to and through Zoo Interlocking and in the departure from Washington Union Station. It would take 22.5 miles of running at 150 mph instead of 135 mph to save just ONE minute.

If a train goes over an exactly 15-mile-long stretch of 150-mph-speed-limit track at 150 mph, it will cover the distance in 6:00 minutes. If it travels the 15-mile-long stretch at 135 mph, it will cover it in 6:40, i.e., just 40 seconds more. As George has pointed out, the train has to go some distance at the higher speed before the time saving becomes apparent.

Using the other example, the 3-mile-long stretch of 150-mph track, if the Acela goes 150 for 3 miles, it will be able to go at top speed for only a little over a minute (1:12 for 3.0 miles). At 135 mph, it will cover the same distance in 1:20—a difference of just 8 seconds.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

New London: that is a major problem that would require a complete relocation of a few miles to fix.

Why does it need a relocation? I know you know more then me, but why can't they just install some elevators and platforms at a higher level? The platforms on much of the NEC in NJ are well elevated from the street, why can't that be done with New London? Solve the grade-crossing problem, too.

 

[George Harris]

New London: that is a major problem that would require a complete relocation of a few miles to fix.

Why does it need a relocation? I know you know more then me, but why can't they just install some elevators and platforms at a higher level? The platforms on much of the NEC in NJ are well elevated from the street, why can't that be done with New London? Solve the grade-crossing problem, too.

It is a curve problem, not an elevation problem.

 

[VT Hokie]

The 150 mph stretch is considerably longer now. There's a total of 34 miles or so of 150 mph track now.

Kingston station is within one of the sections that was increased to 150. The speed limit through the station used to be 130 mph.

 

[Acela150]

As I know it was always 150 through KIN. But that's me.

 

[the_traveler]

As I know it was always 150 through KIN. But that's me.

No, at one time, the 150 MPH segment was about 1/2 to 1 mile north of the station. I think AE went slowly thru the station at only about 130 MPH!

Although one time when I was at KIN, it came crawling thru at like 20 MPH! And once it stopped - with me on it! (I've got connections! Actually it was a breakdown of a Regional that was holding up an AE. So they pulled the Regional out of service and put us on the AE! )

 

[DET63]

The 150 mph stretch is considerably longer now. There's a total of 34 miles or so of 150 mph track now.
Kingston station is within one of the sections that was increased to 150. The speed limit through the station used to be 130 mph.

Traveling exactly 34 miles at 150 mph would take 13:36. Traveling the same distance at 135 mph would take about 15:07—a difference of about 1:31, still not a great time savings.

Just for fun, traveling exactly 34 miles at 125 mph would take about 16:19.

And finally, for the masochistic among us, traveling 34 miles at 79 mph would take about 25:49.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

New London: that is a major problem that would require a complete relocation of a few miles to fix.

Why does it need a relocation? I know you know more then me, but why can't they just install some elevators and platforms at a higher level? The platforms on much of the NEC in NJ are well elevated from the street, why can't that be done with New London? Solve the grade-crossing problem, too.

It is a curve problem, not an elevation problem.

Ah, that explains that.

 

[acelafan]

This is an old post, but fans of the NEC might find Amtrak's new report An Interim Assessment of Achieving Improved Trip Times on the Northeast Corridor interesting (or depressing!) Basically the report says rail traffic on the NEC is expected to increase 37% through 2030, which is due to more commuter rail traffic in addition to Amtrak trains. Price for improvements? 12 billion dollars or more to get caught up with backlogged/deferred maintenance as well as all sorts of other needed upgrades.

The NEC was supposed to be improved via a 1970s project which was to reduce trip times to 3 hours BOS-NYP and 2 hours 30 mins NYP-WAS. Those are the same goals that are provided in this 2009 report. 30 years later, the NEC is still pretty limited in terms of speed and is embarrassing when compared to other countries around the world. The report does mention $500 million to install intermediate catenary supports, which might enable Acela to run at 150mph and also provide a mechanism to convert the entire NYP-WAS catenary over to constant tension in the future. Yes, it's only a few minutes, but speed improvements might encourage more support from the public if it can be demonstrated that high speed rail is possible with appropriate investments.

12 billion is a lot of money but in the big scheme of things I think it's an investment this country really need to commit to. One can wish and hope...especially with the required land-taking and environmentalist concerns for any substantial realignments. Anyone in DC listening?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Acela at Kingston:

Fascinating. Hard to believe I will be on that this coming Thursday en route to the Gathering.

Thanks DET63 for providing.