Michigan North-South Rail Passenger Project

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The cities on the North - South route certainly are not the largest. Let us hope that the stations are minimal with just a mini high for ADA.
 
I am wondering how the connection in Ann Arbor from The Ann Arbor RR to the ex NYC line. I have lived there and they do not meet at grade. I kinda of remember a sharp steep curve providing a connection a long time ago, but current maps do not show it. Even if it did exist it would involve backup moves. Looking at the map it seems like the best connection would be a new bridge over the Huron river.

I do have to admit it would be nice to see passenger trains on the old Ann Arbor again.
 
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As a quasi Michigan railfan I've followed this story for awhile. Still surprised that the Detroit to Grand Rapids route isn't a higher priority than North-South. At the top end the stations could best be described as "seasonal".

Any obvious reason that DET-GRR seems to rarely if ever show up in proposals, discussions, etc?

To me it's such an obviously-good candiate. I like the idea of Holland-Grand Rapids-Lansing-Howell-Ann Arbor-Dearborn-Detroit. I know it's a bit of a detour to head south rather than plunge headfirst into Detroit on the CSX through Livonia and Plymouth, but the addition of Ann Arbor and the U of Michigan to the line gives barn-burner levels of potential traffic. Definitely some extra expense making that route run with competitive speeds and it won't be cheap to mate the two lines in Ann Arbor for trains to run down from Howell and head east towards Ypsilanti. But dang, it would be worth it.

But even a more traditional GRR-LAN-DET route seems glaringly absent from the discussion. Any idea why??
 
But even a more traditional GRR-LAN-DET route seems glaringly absent from the discussion. Any idea why??
I have to wonder that as well - linking the largest metropolitan area in the state to the state capital (third largest metro area) and second largest metropolitan area and potentially on to the largest city in the region seems to be a major ridership builder.
 
As to which route to pursue, there are many factors, not all of which involve the most populated city pairs. First, the proposed route to north Michigan will provide needed, all weather transportation to an underserved part of the state. Second, rail passenger service market penetration in smaller communities frequently far exceeds the market penetration in large metro areas. Third, rail brings economic development and has a dramatic impact on local economies, especially in smaller communities. Fourth, negotiating access to an extremely busy rail mainline with a recalcitrant host railroad and the improvements necessary to accommodate a corridor are significant. Where rail is in public ownership, as much of this northern Michigan line is, is a much simpler proposition and the costs of upgrade may actually be less than building a corridor on an extremely busy freight line. Finally, these rail upgrades will also inure to the benefit of freight service to northern Michigan. Obviously, Detroit to Grand Rapids is a sensible corridor, but it probably comes after the northern Michigan service that is probably more easily implemented.
 
As a long ago Michigander from Detroit ( and one who used the AA station to go back and forth from UM in the pre-Amtrak days), my two cents is that this route make a great deal of sense, serves an un-served portion of the LP and goes where Southeastern folks want to go. And, unless you're into beer and Gerald Ford, Grand Rapids isn't a destination stop on most minds.
 
I have to wonder that as well - linking the largest metropolitan area in the state to the state capital (third largest metro area) and second largest metropolitan area and potentially on to the largest city in the region seems to be a major ridership builder.
It makes so much sense, it will come, but after the northern Michigan service for many reasons.
 
IMO this route or one similar to the upper reaches of the LP is needed. However, how much money can come from the state and feds for this project may depend on state and Federal election results.
This route needs to be balanced with the main route DTW - CHI improvements that can reduce the scheduled enroute times. Hou many total passenger minutes can be saved? Especially the Short CN section. Is it feasible to reduce the scheduled time by one hour at what cost?

Maybe both routes can be financed with certain election results only?
 
Running a train across the endless forests of the lower pennisula at the expense of a Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit route doesn't make much sense. Running any kind of train across the population light U.P. makes even less.
Nobody is talking about the UP. This route isn’t at the expense of anything. This isn’t an either/or and it hasn’t been presented that way. Some people have mused on here about preferring Detroit to Grand Rapids. There are many reasons why that corridor may be vastly more expensive and difficult to develop. As anyone who has been to northern Michigan knows, there is a lot of travel there. Further, the area is underserved and would greatly benefit from rail service. Implementing this service on lightly used track is a lot easier than on an extremely busy railroad. The reality is that smaller communities are frequently more likely to use rail and get great economic benefit from it. The route makes sense under the circumstances.
 
I hate to say this but I'll believe it when I see it. A couple of years back there was talk about a Detroit / Ann Arbor/ Toledo/ Detroit Airport train. (T-Train) I think the upgrades to track 3 in Toledo were for this project, however now it has gone completely silent. Don't get me wrong, it seems any place that gets new rail service it usually goes well and beats expectations, getting it off the ground seems to be the big lift.
 
Running a train across the endless forests of the lower pennisula at the expense of a Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit route doesn't make much sense. Running any kind of train across the population light U.P. makes even less.
In Washington state, we've had the Empire Builder Seattle section running via less-populated Wenatchee and Ephrata as opposed to its former Amtrak route through more-populated Pasco, Yakima and Ellensburg since 1981. Trust me. Lack of population is a problem, something Amtrak somehow didn't see back then and refused to correct.
 
In Washington state, we've had the Empire Builder Seattle section running via less-populated Wenatchee and Ephrata as opposed to its former Amtrak route through more-populated Pasco, Yakima and Ellensburg since 1981. Trust me. Lack of population is a problem, something Amtrak somehow didn't see back then and refused to correct.
Well, realistically Amtrak would have had to fund the upkeep of the Stampede Pass Route on its own ... errr ... Federal Budget dime, which the Federal Legislature was clearly unwilling to fund back then. So to now say it was Amtrak's fault alone is a bit of convenient rewriting or willing misinterpretation of history. Of course, absent Federal funding, Washington State could have funded it too, and they chose not to. So who exactly is actually to blame? It was true then and is still true today that a single train operating on that route would come nowhere near funding the cost of the route in a self-sustaining way.

And incidentally Amtrak did continue to serve Pasco as it does even today, by the Portland Section of the Empire Builder. Indeed back then one of the reasons given for the introduction of the Portland section was to serve Pasco.
 
Well, realistically Amtrak would have had to fund the upkeep of the Stampede Pass Route on its own ... errr ... Federal Budget dime, which the Federal Legislature was clearly unwilling to fund back then. So to now say it was Amtrak's fault alone is a bit of convenient rewriting or willing misinterpretation of history. Of course, absent Federal funding, Washington State could have funded it too, and they chose not to. So who exactly is actually to blame? It was true then and is still true today that a single train operating on that route would come nowhere near funding the cost of the route in a self-sustaining way.

And incidentally Amtrak did continue to serve Pasco as it does even today, by the Portland Section of the Empire Builder. Indeed back then one of the reasons given for the introduction of the Portland section was to serve Pasco.
There are actually a lot of stories as to who ordered that Wenatchee reroute. For example, Amtrak said it wanted to give the Seattle section a straight shot to Spokane. BN said it didn't want any fights with Amtrak and went along with the request (this was pre-Frisco takeover). And the current service to Pasco really means nothing for Washington. By far, most of the requests to Amtrak from Pasco residents were from people seeking to go to and from Seattle, not Portland. Amtrak did nothing when it still could have admitted its mistake and undone the reroute. Also, we had only a freshman U.S. Senator and freshman U.S. Congressman with interest in following Amtrak in eastern Washington at the time on either line, and because of their lack of seniority they could do nothing.
 
I don't think anyone is necessarily saying "kill the Michigan North-South Rail Project and funnel those resources to Detroit-Grand Rapids". Rather it's just kind of puzzling that in a relativelhy rail-forward state like Michigan DET-LAN-GRR doesn't seem to show up in discussions, speculative maps, etc.

Obviously they are two very different routes.

The route to Traverse City + Petosky would largely serve vacation and second home travelers and give year-round residents access to Southeast Michigan. It would also bring access to a handful of smaller Central Michigan communities who don't have the benefit of tourist & vacation home community money.

The cross-state route from Holland to Grand Rapids, Lansing and Ann Arbor to Detroit would have comparably minimal tourist traffic but runs through a relatively densely populated strip. The belt of counties connected by this route from metro Detroit westward to Holland is about 6 million people and nearly 200k students in 4-year and graduate universities. That kind of density, especially within the same state, generates a huge volume of personal and business travel.

Considering how Ohio is traditionally not supportive of passenger rail, among the variety of proposals, studies, map proposals submitted by organizations, etc. are (1) Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit (2) Empire extension to CLE to offer a second CLE-NY train targeted at 10 hours (3) Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincinnati (4) Chicago-Fort Wayne-Columbus-Pittsburgh (5) Columbus-Athens (6) Columbus-Chillicothe (7) Detroit-Toledo-Columbus (8) Cincinnati-Indianapolis-Chicago higher speed 4x/day (9) expansion of Cardinal from 3/week to daily (10) restoration of a modified National Limited NY-PHL-PIT-COL-CIN-IND-STL-TUL-DAL (11) Detroit-New Orleans running through Toledo and Cincinnati. All of those have been a discussion topid and/or on a proposed map issuef by a government entity and/or an organization in the past few years. Odds of these actually happening range from difficult to nearly lotterly-level bad, but they are more than I've seen about a Holland-Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit train. Just not sure why that is.

On a side note when the topic of Upper Michigan came up, I don't think anybody seriously thinks a train should cross from lower to upper MI. Rather the Upper Peninsula's only real shot would be once the Hiawatha is extended up to Green Bay that a train or two continue northward to Marinette/Meonomonee, Escanaba and Marquette. Central and Western UP are in many ways more culturally and economically linked to Wisconsin and Chicago than to Detroit. Getting the train extended up to Green Bay is itself a long task, and a further 175 miles up to Marquette would be even more challenging. But it's probably the only plausible option to get Amtrak to the Upper Peninsula.
 
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On a side note when the topic of Upper Michigan came up, I don't think anybody seriously thinks a train should cross from lower to upper MI. Rather the Upper Peninsula's only real shot would be once the Hiawath is extended up to Green Bay that a train or to continue northward to Marinette/Meonomonee, Escanaba and Marquette. Central and Western UP are in many ways more culturally and economically linked to Wisconsin and Chicago than to Detroit. Getting the train extended up to Green Bay is itself a long task, and a further 175 miles up to Marquette would be even more challenging. But it's probably the only plausible option to get Amtrak to the
Upper Peninsula.
"Only plausible option," LOL -- It's the only option. There are the issues of the Straits of Mackinac, and that there is no rail bridge at the Straits. The cost would be prohibitive, and, should one propose a bridge, the opponents would come out in force. "Government Boondoggle," Government waste," etc., etc.
 
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