norfolkwesternhenry
Lead Service Attendant
What will replace the current trains operating in corridor service (Illini, Saluki, Lincoln Service, Hiawatha, Wolverine, etc) Will it be the Nippon-Sharyo bi-levels and Siemens SC-44 Chargers?
Midwest corridor rolling stock/motive power replacement
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norfolkwesternhenry
Lead Service Attendant
I hate the current wisconsin governer, killing all the rail programs, and refusing to upgrade current ones.
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Oh for pete's sake. I like this forum, but really tire of uninformed political statements. I usually just ignore them, but when we say we hate someone for taking a difficult stand to straighten out a huge mess created by previous administrations that is too far. The ONE project he stopped was a boondoggle dead end stub to Madison.Proposed cost was huge and the proposed ticket price for me to take it( yes it would have stopped in my home town) was $45 one way for a trip that even at high speed would have taken 10 minutes longer than driving. My cost for driving myself and my wife is maybe $20. ( yes plus my share of road maintenance) He has said he is open to improving the route to Minneapolis, and up grading the Hiawatha. I love train travel, but the tax situation in this state was causing new business to ignore Wisconsin. This needed to be addressed. Thank you administrators for letting me vent. I promise not to post any more political stuff. (at least until i again can no longer stand silly vague statements about hating someone.
I dislike when political statements are made as well. I have noted that it can result in things being rejected, even when they would benefit the public good, That is why I did not like the turning of the Madison service extension into a political issue. The Governor took what was to be an improvement and upgrade to Chicago - Twin Cities service, and labeled it as a Madison - Milwaukee train. It hurt matters even more when the DOT named the project "Madison - Milwaukee," as that gave many people the impression that it was just those two stops. The project was no "dead end stub,' rather it was to include Madison on the route between Milwaukee and Minneapolis / St. Paul. The cost was so high in order to upgrade the tracks going in and out of Madison, as the tracks will not allow for speeds over 20 mph, and also go through a marsh. There was a lot of misunderstanding regarding this project, and those who supported it never had control of the publicity, nor did they think that, after having been in the works for the previous two decades, it would be turned into a political football. My sense is that the responsible citizens and policy makers who were in favor of this project lost control of the narrative very early on. This was probably because it had not been anticipated that a project that had been favorably and publicly evaluated, and whose need was obvious, over a period of half a generation, would suddenly be the target of a furious (if largely fact-free) assault. For example, the Madison project was mischaracterized as a "train to Milwaukee", whereas it's really multiple trains to and from Chicago. With a stop at Milwaukee (among other places). Even those who knew that there are already trains between MKE and CHI didn't seem to understand that the "train to Milwaukee" was simply an extension of that highly successful service, no one would have to change trains in Milwaukee, etc., etc. (The "future extension" to Chicago that one sometimes saw mentioned in the media coverage had to do with 110 mph operation over the route that would be covered by current 80 mph speeds until the upgrades.) Mods, feel free to delete this post if it is too political for you. /rant off
CCC1007
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If he is open to upgrading the Hiawatha, why did he cancel the talgo order that would have freed his state from leasing passenger cars from Amtrak?
The comment about "hating" the WI governor was unnecessary, I agree. And it's more complicated than saying he killed "all the rail programs," I agree. But...
Boondoggle? Hardly.
The choice of where to locate the Madison station was tricky - do you choose a downtown location that will maximize usefulness to Madison destinations but will greatly complicate the next phase (extension beyond Madison to St. Paul), or do you choose a location that may be more useful for some Madison-originating trips (better/easier parking) and will be easily extended onward to St. Paul but will be less useful for reaching common/popular Madison locations? Reasonable people can disagree on this but it hardly means the entire project was a boondoggle.
And the current administration and legislature in Madison has stopped and/or been unwilling to support more than just the Madison extension of the Hiawatha. (See local and regional transit plans, for example.) But, if/when Wisconsin upgrades the existing Hiawatha service (by joining the Midwest bilevel car order and adding additional frequencies), I'll gladly give credit where due.
Boondoggle? Hardly.
The choice of where to locate the Madison station was tricky - do you choose a downtown location that will maximize usefulness to Madison destinations but will greatly complicate the next phase (extension beyond Madison to St. Paul), or do you choose a location that may be more useful for some Madison-originating trips (better/easier parking) and will be easily extended onward to St. Paul but will be less useful for reaching common/popular Madison locations? Reasonable people can disagree on this but it hardly means the entire project was a boondoggle.
And the current administration and legislature in Madison has stopped and/or been unwilling to support more than just the Madison extension of the Hiawatha. (See local and regional transit plans, for example.) But, if/when Wisconsin upgrades the existing Hiawatha service (by joining the Midwest bilevel car order and adding additional frequencies), I'll gladly give credit where due.
I will agree that looking at the bi level cars to replace the crowded amfleets, is a reasonable idea, along with some more frequencies for the Hiawatha. And i am very much in favor of another train to Minneapolis. But the Madison train just had too much cost for the amount of passengers that could be estimated for that segment. And i do respect your reasoning on why it might have been an idea to include Madison in a route. Just think it was not a well designed plan. An example of problems was a 3 story station complete with elevators and escalators for one small town on the route. I believe the number was 5 million dollars, when a single level station could have been built in a location used previously for trial service to this town, for probably less than a million..
It should also be noted that most Wisconsinites have no experience using trains on a regular basis. This means that they aren't going to be able to come up with a reason to ride, as they drive everywhere today. Those who opposed the recent iteration of extending service to Madison voted against it as they couldn't see any reason why anyone would ride it.
Giving the devil his due :giggle: Walker didn't cancel the Talgo order, the legislature killed it against/over Walker's recommendation. Mind you, some would say that the legislature's opposition to the Talgo order was Walker merely losing control of the anti-rail, anti-Milwaukee-City-talk-radio-fueled Frankenstein's monster that Walker and his backers created, but it was not
Is there anything confirmed yet that the Nippon-Sharyo order will even still happen, given the pending loss of federal stimulus funds? The states have indicated they are going ahead with the order, I believe, but that will require alternative funding. Regardless, we'll apparently see the new Chargers pulling Horizon cars for at least a couple years.
There is a statement in the June 7 minutes of the NGEC executive committee that there is a commitment to funding the entire 130 bi-level car order. Some of the funding for the N-S order is from California and some from FY2010 grants, neither of which are subject to the September, 2017 spending deadline, so there is safe funding for part of the order. Don't know if the FRA is shuffling funds between FY2010 and stimulus grants to cover it or if there are plans for other "solutions" to the stimulus deadline. See my June 13 post in the N-S bi-level thread for what we know. Which is the on-topic thread to discuss the latest with N-S if people want to get into it.
That's just the post I was thinking of. Thanks.
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
I'm no fan or Scott Walker or John Kasich, but I was no fan of the plans they killed for corridor trains.
As explained in another post, the train to Madison was not even shovel-ready on paper, but was dumped into the world completely unready: If you are proposing a train to Madison, have the station location picked out. Anything less is asking voters to support a mystery project with easily imaginable cost over-runs and other horrors. FAIL.
It also doesn't take much to understand that Wisconsin's small town and suburban voters may know only one thing about Madison: It's not like them. The proposed upgrades should have been marketed as the first step to build a frequent-service corridor CHI-Milwaukee-Madison-LaCrosse-St Paul. No one outside of the hated cities of Madison and Milwaukee was given any reason to support the project. FAIL.
In Ohio, the 3Cs route was launched without a solid proposal for its Cincinnati terminal. When announced, the route was going to end at some station in another part of the city from the iconic Union Station. The voters of Cincinnati love their Art Deco masterpiece so much that they'd voted funds to save and restore it. It's used now mostly for museum space, and for the post-midnight stops of the Cardinal. Yeah, great. The 3Cs trains weren't going to connect to the Cardinal and the national system, but were heading someplace else. Wanting to take the train from Charlottesville or Charleston to Columbus? That will require a long layover AND a taxi tour of inner Cincinnati. FAIL.
Meanwhile, the first figures released on the 3Cs said the train would average 49 mph CLE-Cincy. By the time they got around to telling people that was the "quick launch" timetable and would soon be upgraded to 59 mph, and then someday to 69 mph and 79 mph, by then no one was listening. It was a half-baked proposal that slipped off the platter and splattered all over the kitchen floor. And it made Kasich look good while making passenger trains look bad. FAIL.
I don't think Kasich and Walker were the only bad actors in those tragedies, so I wouldn't say "hate" either.
As explained in another post, the train to Madison was not even shovel-ready on paper, but was dumped into the world completely unready: If you are proposing a train to Madison, have the station location picked out. Anything less is asking voters to support a mystery project with easily imaginable cost over-runs and other horrors. FAIL.
It also doesn't take much to understand that Wisconsin's small town and suburban voters may know only one thing about Madison: It's not like them. The proposed upgrades should have been marketed as the first step to build a frequent-service corridor CHI-Milwaukee-Madison-LaCrosse-St Paul. No one outside of the hated cities of Madison and Milwaukee was given any reason to support the project. FAIL.
In Ohio, the 3Cs route was launched without a solid proposal for its Cincinnati terminal. When announced, the route was going to end at some station in another part of the city from the iconic Union Station. The voters of Cincinnati love their Art Deco masterpiece so much that they'd voted funds to save and restore it. It's used now mostly for museum space, and for the post-midnight stops of the Cardinal. Yeah, great. The 3Cs trains weren't going to connect to the Cardinal and the national system, but were heading someplace else. Wanting to take the train from Charlottesville or Charleston to Columbus? That will require a long layover AND a taxi tour of inner Cincinnati. FAIL.
Meanwhile, the first figures released on the 3Cs said the train would average 49 mph CLE-Cincy. By the time they got around to telling people that was the "quick launch" timetable and would soon be upgraded to 59 mph, and then someday to 69 mph and 79 mph, by then no one was listening. It was a half-baked proposal that slipped off the platter and splattered all over the kitchen floor. And it made Kasich look good while making passenger trains look bad. FAIL.
I don't think Kasich and Walker were the only bad actors in those tragedies, so I wouldn't say "hate" either.
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andersone
Conductor
As an Ohio resident, I cannot absolve Kasich. Maybe they will nominate him for prez and we can say good riddance. I would love to be able to get to Cleveland rather than rely on the 3 day / week Cardinal. I would much prefer a daily Card, but as Mother used to say "If wishes were horses then beggars would ride."
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