Midwest Venture introduction

[Crowbar_k]

Another thing to remember regarding the IDOT cars - When asked why the IDOT cars aren't all semi-permanently coupled into a trainset like Caltrans' cars are, it was explained that Amtrak's Chicago shops are not currently configured to handle a set-up like that, but when the shops are equipped to do so, the IDOT trainsets will be converted to all semi-permanently coupled.

That might explain why the IDOT coaches running on 303 and 306 have door cutouts without operating doors. When, and if, the IDOT cars are fully coupled, then we can observe whether the other doors get installed.

I didn't know cars could be converted like that.

 

[jis]

I didn't know cars could be converted like that.

Just changing out the drawbar/coupler and the gangway. It's not like anything structural is being changed.

 

[joelkfla]

If one looks at the order one finds that there are a few car types that have two doors and other have four doors.
View attachment 27048

Each standard five car train set will have two married pairs with 6 doors each and a single Coach with 2 doors constituting a standard five car set. A typical set will look something like this:

D-Bus/Coach-D - S - Coach-D - H - D-Cafe/Lounge-D - S - Coach-D - H - Coach-D

where S depicts semi permanent coupler and H depicts AAR tightlock coupler. D depicts door/vestibule. The S coupled cars have the wide seamless gangways.

So on the whole I don't see a reason to get indignant about having only 2 doors in a few cars, from a single car type (apparently) that we have seen so far.

For CA, the cars with gap fillers or wheelchair lifts have 4 doors. My guess is there will be gap fillers or lifts at one end, and steps at the other end. The steps would be oriented the same as the 2-door cars; so the lifts or gap fillers would be adjacent to the steps in the next car. That way normal doors would be evenly spaced at 1 per car, and use of the gap filler or lift would not interfere with normal entry & exit. The other 4-door car is the lounge; perhaps one set of doors is for servicing the cafe, like the center doors on Viewliner diners.

For IL, the lounge and business cars have 4 doors. Perhaps the business cars will have separate entrances for business & economy class.

 

[Mailliw]

Why does the Caltrans order include lounge cars? I thought they were going with vending machines.

 

[Crowbar_k]

Why does the Caltrans order include lounge cars? I thought they were going with vending machines.

I guess for people to lounge

 

[PVD]

Even if they use machines, people might want to sit down and eat or drink. Of course, with no staff, it will be fun when the machines malfunction and the garbage piles up on the tables.

 

[Crowbar_k]

Even if they use machines, people might want to sit down and eat or drink. Of course, with no staff, it will be fun when the machines malfunction and the garbage piles up on the tables.

I believe the Piedmont has a lounge cat, despite the fact that they only have vending machines.

 

[John from RI]

I took a quick ride over the weekend. Just a one-hour trip.

My impression on the seats: The difference in cushioning vs. the Amfleet I rode on the way back is definitely noticeable. That said, I wouldn’t necessarily call the new seats uncomfortable. After maybe five minutes of sitting down, I seriously didn’t even notice.

Some of the firmness will likely naturally adjust as the seats are worn in a bit (when the new seat cushions on Amfleet/Horizon cars were installed a couple years ago, they were pretty firm as well; that’s just the nature of new seat cushions vs. ones that have been sat in for years). I’d be more concerned about what those seats feel like 2-3 years from now vs. today.

The width, on the other hand, was definitely noticeable. Sitting next to the window, my arm was pushed a bit more into the wall. I had a seat pair to myself so I didn’t quite get the full experience of the narrowness of the seat, and I did fold the center armrest up just to take advantage of the slight extra width that affords.

The forward-sliding recline feature does have limited travel, but that’s always going to be a bit controversial as folks who recline with the traditional seats are really taking more space for themselves at the expense of the person behind them, whereas the slide-forward doesn’t give you any more space, but rather forces one to stay within the “budget” of the space they already had. It would not be sufficient for getting any kind of sleep, but I suppose that’s not what this fleet is really intended for.

I’m sure some will try to vehemently disagree with me, but I think a lot of the complaints about seat hardness are psychological. If you weren’t specifically looking for a reason to complain about the seats, odds are most folks wouldn’t really even care. I recall when the current Amfleet/Horizon seats were retrofitted, and some folks on some of the Facebook groups would complain about how the “new“ seats had so much less legroom and it was clear evidence of Richard Anderson taking his airline mentality to Amtrak by stuffing in more people per car, etc. In reality, everything they were whining about was in their head, they were just trying to convince themselves they didn’t like it to fit their pre-established narrative.

I’ve seen a lot of that with these new seats as well, reading comments in various places (such as the very same Facebook groups). The folks who complained the loudest are those predisposed to seeing fault in everything that happens.

Thanks for commenting about your actual experience with the new seats.

 

[MisterUptempo]

Why does the Caltrans order include lounge cars? I thought they were going with vending machines.

I started a search through all my files for an image that showed the layout of the Cali café car, which, if I recall, had two or three vending machines on each end of the car, as well as a condiment station. I'm positive I have one somewhere, but no luck so far.

On the subject of café cars, I did locate a rendering from Siemens of the IDOT café car. Granted, it's from 2018, but the other 2018 renderings issued are pretty much dead on, so, perhaps this one is close to accurate. Time will tell-

 

[Crowbar_k]

I started a search through all my files for an image that showed the layout of the Cali café car, which, if I recall, had two or three vending machines on each end of the car, as well as a condiment station. I'm positive I have one somewhere, but no luck so far.

On the subject of café cars, I did locate a rendering from Siemens of the IDOT café car. Granted, it's from 2018, but the other 2018 renderings issued are pretty much dead on, so, perhaps this one is close to accurate. Time will tell-

That looks a lot nicer than the current industrial look of the amfleets and, especially, the horizons.

 

[joelkfla]

Why does the Caltrans order include lounge cars? I thought they were going with vending machines.

You need someplace to put the machines.

Even if they use machines, people might want to sit down and eat or drink. Of course, with no staff, it will be fun when the machines malfunction and the garbage piles up on the tables.

Don't trains in CA have coach attendants?

 

[MARC Rider]

You need someplace to put the machines.


Don't trains in CA have coach attendants?

If they're at all like the NEC, the Empire Service, Keystone, the Vermonter, Virginia Northeast Regionals, the Carolinian, etc., they have no coach attendants. The Northeast Regionals sometimes have someone who comes through the train collecting trash and maybe cleaning restrooms, but I'm not sure whether they're assigned to the train for the whole ride or just certain segments where they do their job.

 

[Bob Dylan]

You need someplace to put the machines.


Don't trains in CA have coach attendants?

The only attendants on CA Trains are the LSA in Business Class. Conductors handle the Trains.

 

[jrud]

The only layout I’ve seen with vending machines is on page 11 of this document. There’s no guarantee it hasn’t changed.

https://sjjpa.com/wp-content/uploads/SJJPA-Board-Meeting-May-31-2019-Presentation-3.pdf

 

[MisterUptempo]

The only layout I’ve seen with vending machines is on page 11 of this document. There’s no guarantee it hasn’t changed.

https://sjjpa.com/wp-content/uploads/SJJPA-Board-Meeting-May-31-2019-Presentation-3.pdf

That's the image I was looking for. Guess I remembered it wrong. Machines on both sides, and not on both ends. Thanks for this.

 

[neroden]

From the pictures, the recline does not look very generous or meaningful. So the initial upright comfort would be pretty important.

He explains that the seats literally don't recline at all. Sliding the bottom seat cushion around isn't reclining. For short people with tight hamstrings, it's utterly useless.

(Sliding the bottom end of the seatback forward would be reclining, but the seat doesn't do that. It appears to simply have a bottom cushion which isn't attached properly, and which I will probably have to keep shoving back into place.)

However, I've never minded the lack of reclining on subways or commuter railroads.

I certainly hope Amtrak will go with something more appropriate for the overnight trains, though.

 

[IndyLions]

I think this is the main issue. They're okay for short trips but for longer ones, they don't seem adequate. Really disappointed in the seat recline being just the bottom cushion moving forward 2.4 inches.

Now if CREATE could move along, maybe it wouldn't be five hours...

I also saw that sadly the business class cars won't be coming until late 2022 and the cafe cars not until 2023!?


Wait wait, so there's a cutout for a door, but they decided NOT to put one there?!? Who the hell decided that would be a good idea?!?!?

It might have been a style-based decision. Maybe they thought having the appearance of a 2nd door would improve the visual balance of the train. There are lots of decisions that are made based on form - function is not the only consideration.

Just look at all the people who complain that the stripes don’t match up properly!

 

[AmtrakBlue]

If they're at all like the NEC, the Empire Service, Keystone, the Vermonter, Virginia Northeast Regionals, the Carolinian, etc., they have no coach attendants. The Northeast Regionals sometimes have someone who comes through the train collecting trash and maybe cleaning restrooms, but I'm not sure whether they're assigned to the train for the whole ride or just certain segments where they do their job.

I think the trash collector is the LSA, but, obviously, I could be wrong. And I've heard of them having people ride part way to clean the bathrooms. Maybe between mid-point stations.

 

[PVD]

There is an enroute cleaner position on the NEC but I'm not sure how they are assigned. I have noticed them on NER trains from time to time.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I believe the Piedmont has a lounge cat, despite the fact that they only have vending machines.

Yes, the Piedmont trains have a lounge / baggage combine car. The lounge area has several tables and chairs and in the center car they have vending machines as well as free coffee and bottled water. Each time I have been on the train the vending machines were working and well stocked.

the Carolinian, etc., they have no coach attendants.

The Carolinian does have a coach attendant as well as a dedicated business class attendant. (Unless things have changed since my last ride).

 

[daybeers]

Everybody worried about the seat width should know that the seats in the Siemens Ventures that Brightline uses are 19 inches wide in "Smart" (coach) and 21 inches wide in "Select" (business).

 

[MARC Rider]

He explains that the seats literally don't recline at all. Sliding the bottom seat cushion around isn't reclining. For short people with tight hamstrings, it's utterly useless.

(Sliding the bottom end of the seatback forward would be reclining, but the seat doesn't do that. It appears to simply have a bottom cushion which isn't attached properly, and which I will probably have to keep shoving back into place.)

However, I've never minded the lack of reclining on subways or commuter railroads.

I certainly hope Amtrak will go with something more appropriate for the overnight trains, though.

I rode British Rail extensively on a trip I made in 1985. None of the seats in Second Class reclined. They were arranged in sets of seat pairs facing each other with a fairly substantial table in between, I guess sort of like the center seats in the Venture coaches, but throughout the entire car. I thought they were perfectly comfortable, even for our 5 hour ride from Penzance to Paddington, which was the longest single ride we did on the trip.

With regard to the Amtrak Venture coaches, I do hope that the business class seats recline.

 

[MARC Rider]

I believe the Piedmont has a lounge cat, despite the fact that they only have vending machines.

A lounge cat! Cool. Is he friendly? Does he let you pet him?

 

[Crowbar_k]

A lounge cat! Cool. Is he friendly? Does he let you pet him?

Well, it is also a baggage car, so there might be a cat in that car.

 

[BlackDiamond]

I rode British Rail extensively on a trip I made in 1985. None of the seats in Second Class reclined. They were arranged in sets of seat pairs facing each other with a fairly substantial table in between, I guess sort of like the center seats in the Venture coaches, but throughout the entire car. I thought they were perfectly comfortable, even for our 5 hour ride from Penzance to Paddington, which was the longest single ride we did on the trip.

With regard to the Amtrak Venture coaches, I do hope that the business class seats recline.

My wife and I had a similar experience an even longer trip London to Inverness, about the longest UK train journey you could make at the time (1982). I found the seats perfectly acceptable for a 10 hour trip. We returned on an overnight sleeper though, a 2 berth compartment.