MN and WI ask for study of second MSP-CHI train

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Of course, a third frequency will pain the BNSF and require more costly upgrades. But as they study notes, a package of upgrades can benefit the freights and the new passenger trains. Let's try to work it out.
How is an additional frequency between St. Paul and Chicago going to pain BNSF when it doe not even run on BNSF? Or were you planning to run the new frequencies on BNSF?

At present the only involvement of BNSF between SPUD and Chicago is on the short jointly operated segment in the vicinity of SPUD (SPUD to CP Hastings). The rest is all CP.
Thank you for your tacky nitpicking. Whatever occupies your mind.

The point is that track upgrades will benefit both passenger rail and freight rail, NO MATTER WHAT COMPANY OWNS THE ROUTE.
For those interested in practical matters and not hung up on ones fragile ego :) , it does matter, because BNSF is generally more friendly to Amtrak and CP is positively hostile. CP is less likely to react favorably than BNSF, though anything can always be bought for the right price.

Also if the trains ran on BNSF they would not be serving Milwaukee either. ;)
Edit: Removed my apt remarks.
 
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Of course, a third frequency will pain the BNSF and require more costly upgrades. But as they study notes, a package of upgrades can benefit the freights and the new passenger trains. Let's try to work it out.
How is an additional frequency between St. Paul and Chicago going to pain BNSF when it doe not even run on BNSF? Or were you planning to run the new frequencies on BNSF?

At present the only involvement of BNSF between SPUD and Chicago is on the short jointly operated segment in the vicinity of SPUD (SPUD to CP Hastings). The rest is all CP.
Thank you for your tacky nitpicking. Whatever occupies your mind.

The point is that track upgrades will benefit both passenger rail and freight rail, NO MATTER WHAT COMPANY OWNS THE ROUTE.
For those interested in practical matters and not hung up on ones fragile ego :) , it does matter, because BNSF is generally more friendly to Amtrak and CP is positively hostile. CP is less likely to react favorably than BNSF, though anything can always be bought for the right price.

Also if the trains ran on BNSF they would not be serving Milwaukee either. ;)
You are being pedantic. And your tone is patronizing and rude. Aside from that ...
Chill out, man.
 
I'm still hung up on the $36 per rider subsidy. A hard thing to sell.

But Nathanael's alternative schedule points to the solution. Minnesota should go for adding two more trains from the jump. Just two trains a day each way isn't a good business plan.

...

Of course, a third frequency will pain the [freight host] and require more costly upgrades. But as they study notes, a package of upgrades can benefit the freights and the new passenger trains. Let's try to work it out.

++++++++++++++++++

All the freight lines will model any proposed new passenger service. Always it seems, adding even a minimum of another two slots (one each way) for passenger service complicates the operations of the freight trains. Negotiations then begin on measures to allow both sides to meet their needs. Generally, in the case of state-sponsored corridor trains, the state pays for upgrades to add capacity. Sometimes the federal government is able to help with the required investments. The Stimulus program, in particular, put a lot of money into the St Louis-Chicago line and the Cascades route.

Many times the freight hosts are ready to do a deal because they can benefit from investments to upgrade for passenger service. Usually grade crossings are improved for safety reasons, making them safer for freights as well as for Amtrak or corridor service. Longer or more frequent sidings are frequently included in the projects, to benefit both types of users. Signaling may be improved, bridges and culverts rebuilt, and so forth.

If the St Paul-Milwaukee-Chicago route gets investments to carry new corridor trains, there would be spillover effects to Amtrak's Empire Builder as well. The same new grade crossings, the same improved sidings, etc that could make the segment safer, faster, and more reliable would benefit the LD train. Probably larger benefits would come from the combined marketing and advertising of two trains place to place instead of just one, tho the benefit would be difficult to measure fully.

One cost that would decline, and is easy to measure, would be the shared station costs. The impact on the Builder at Chicago Union Station and at Milwaukee would be very small, because there are so many trains. But at St Paul, LaCrosse, and the handful of smaller station en route, the costs of operations would go up little or none, while the corridor trains would take on perhaps half of those costs. Now, station costs are not that great, after fuel, crew, equipment. IIRC the PRIIA studies suggest station operations in the area of 2% of a LD train's total costs, and usually top out a $2 million even for a big station. But if sharing those costs could take even $2 million off the Builder's costs, it would benefit. And of course, if the corridor began to run many frequencies every day, the share falling on the Builder would be even less.

The long term solution to the problems of the LD trains is to share more of their trackage, with shared benefits and shared costs where applicable, with new state-supported corridors that overlap the LD routes. The new St Paul trains could be a good example of that mutual benefit.
 
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Woody,

What you're hung up on is a "subsidy that isn't". For each of the eight options, with A (1425 departure from MSP) and B (1225 departure from MSP) the numbers are:
Option 1 (St. Cloud to Chicago, serve Target Field)

A: Ridership 143,300; Subsidy $5.878m ($41.02/pax)

B: Ridership 185,100; Subsidy $4.632m ($25.02/pax)

Option 2 (St. Cloud to Chicago, serve Fridley)

A: Ridership 143,200; Subsidy $5.855m ($40.89/pax)

B: Ridership 180,300; Subsidy $4.930m ($27.34/pax)

Option 3 (Minneapolis to Chicago)

A: Ridership 137,000; Subsidy $5.617m ($41.00/pax)

B: Ridership 177,600; Subsidy $4.460m ($25.11/pax)

Option 4 (SPUD to Chicago)

A: Ridership 117,800; Subsidy $6.609m ($56.10/pax)
B: Ridership 155,500; Subsidy $5.637m ($36.25/pax)

Ultimately, Option 3-B is probably what will result even if it comes in two phases. Additionally, I do expect that the state will end up with higher-capacity trains...as I noted, it is rather hard for the state to get ridership much higher than the study levels on the basis of the equipment that they want to use (e.g. four passenger cars per train).

Another thing to consider (in a "state runs two trains" universe) would be Minnesota simply chasing the Builder's schedule (more or less). You wouldn't swipe the sleeping car passengers from the Builder (and you get a reasonable number of those) but you could easily grab the majority of the 100k MSP-CHI segment pax due to the Builder's lousy performance (and potentially even work out some sort of deal wherein any cars running CHI-MSP on the Builder could be switched over in the event of catastrophic lateness.
 
Evaluating the MSP-CHI study.

Second train to Chicago: Still running late



Last Thursday, after a delay of almost 2½ years, the Amtrak study for adding a second daily train between the Chicago and the Twin Cities was finally released. The agreement to begin the supposed nine-month study was signed back on May 3, 2012, and it finally arrived on July 2, 2015, thirty-eight months later. Cue your Amtrak jokes now.
 
Evaluating the MSP-CHI study.

Second train to Chicago: Still running late



Last Thursday, after a delay of almost 2½ years, the Amtrak study for adding a second daily train between the Chicago and the Twin Cities was finally released. ...
I learned more from this critique than I did from the study itself. Very good material here for those who like to think seriously about these things.

So we still don't really know how much it would cost to start up this service, because the study was stale (a kind word) when delivered: It included costs of upgrades that were already being implemented by the freights or the state of Minnesota. And it reported that most of the cost of upgrades would be between Milwaukee and Minnesota, duh. Details, please, like a list of needed sidings or wider bridges or stuff.

As usual in state-paid studies, it offered nothing on the plus side for the impact a second frequency would have on the Empire Builder's on-time performance St Paul-Chicago, its ridership, its revenues, its "mind share" among prospective riders, nor any favorable results for the trains connecting in Chicago. These omissions make the estimated subsidy seem higher and the project less desirable overall.

Not ready for prime time consultants -- except I think this study was done by Amtrak. LOL.

At least the route seems very ready, mostly lacking equipment, and a little money, of course.
 
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