More Greyhound cutbacks and comparison with airlines

[Matthew H Fish]

There are two things to consider about the topic of buses (or trains) and airlines.
The first seems funny at first, but it is also something to take seriously. The absolute most cliche topic in stand-up comedy is airline food, and airplane travel in general. And that isn't just in stand-up comedy, but in general, the basics of airline travel are something that pop culture in the form of movies or television will use without thinking as a framing device to explain many different situations. Whether that is a film like When Harry Met Sally, where they share a flight together, or an action movie like Die Hard II, or even Home Alone, the setting of an airport or an airplane is something that most people in the United States will understand, even by osmosis. People who only fly every few years still know these things by osmosis, and so most people in the United States will look at airline travel as the most normal, standard way to travel. On the other hand, if a movie shows people travelling by bus it is probably to show that they are destitute or at least struggling. And if train travel is depicted, it will usually be depicted as being just a quaint relic.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

And a second thing to look at, more quantifiable, is the amount of subsidies that US airports and airlines get---which is quantifiable, but sometimes hard to measure.
There are some obvious things to look at, like the Essential Air Service program---which subsidizes around 20% of US airports in the lower 48. Of course, these airports make up a much smaller percentage of flights, but I believe the EAS is kind of a "keystone species" for air travel in the United States. As long as air travel is so ubiquitous that it seems like the only "normal" way to travel, people wouldn't consider buses or trains. And this is strengthened by, as I pointed out above, that air travel is culturally ubiquitous as well.
EAS does have a role to play in some places where distances really are great, but if you look at a map of EAS airports, many places with very distant communities (Idaho and Nevada) don't have them, while many places have them that are not too far from major cities, for example across the Mississippi.

https://airlinegeeks.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/EAS-Airports-lower-48.jpg

 

[Willbridge]

And a second thing to look at, more quantifiable, is the amount of subsidies that US airports and airlines get---which is quantifiable, but sometimes hard to measure.
There are some obvious things to look at, like the Essential Air Service program---which subsidizes around 20% of US airports in the lower 48. Of course, these airports make up a much smaller percentage of flights, but I believe the EAS is kind of a "keystone species" for air travel in the United States. As long as air travel is so ubiquitous that it seems like the only "normal" way to travel, people wouldn't consider buses or trains. And this is strengthened by, as I pointed out above, that air travel is culturally ubiquitous as well.
EAS does have a role to play in some places where distances really are great, but if you look at a map of EAS airports, many places with very distant communities (Idaho and Nevada) don't have them, while many places have them that are not too far from major cities, for example across the Mississippi.

https://airlinegeeks.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/EAS-Airports-lower-48.jpg

USA Today, which intentionally covers commercial air service heavily, ran an article that provides more on the criteria for EAS.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/trav...ential-air-service-grant-program/10105370002/

 

[Matthew H Fish]

USA Today, which intentionally covers commercial air service heavily, ran an article that provides more on the criteria for EAS.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/trav...ential-air-service-grant-program/10105370002/

I think that the USA today article might be a little misleading. Not in a malicious way, but just that the community it talks about isn't typical of where many or most EAS airports are. For every town like Page, Arizona or Glasgow, Montana, where travel to another airport, or grand transport to a larger city, would be arduous (although Glasgow of course is on the Empire Builder route), there are many communities like Eau Claire, Wisconsin (100 miles to Minneapolis-St. Paul), Decatur, Illinois (40 miles to Springfield) or Muskegon, Michigan (50 miles to Grand Rapids) where the main purpose seems to be to save people a commute that could be done by shuttle bus.
But to return to the main point, that is one of the things that airlines do that bus companies stopped doing: they build networks. Airlines and the air travel industry (including public parts of it, like airports), are able and willing to get money and resources to serve everyone, including by legislative programs like the EAS. Greyhound used to have a network, and a pretty good one, and a lot of that network involved having stations and running routes to places that weren't immediately profitable. Greyhound has ceased to be a network, and because it has ceased to be a network, people will stop considering it as a travel option.

 

[west point]

Any hints what Greyhound is doing with their surplus buses? Could it be the shrinkage is because their buses are becoming only good for scrap ?.

 

[Willbridge]

Any hints what Greyhound is doing with their surplus buses? Could it be the shrinkage is because their buses are becoming only good for scrap ?.

They have usually sold their used buses to other carriers or entities. However, the shrinkage does fit with a steady decline in the fleet needed. In December 2015, when there were still two daily PDX<>BOI<>DEN trips, the night trip through a snowstorm in the Blues was topped off by the heat failing. We made into Boise, but a local mechanic couldn't fix it. They had to charter a bus from Northwestern to Salt Lake City. Greyhound covered SLC<>DEN on time with a spare bus without us and invited us to sleep on the station benches till the other departure. Old-timers who I've told this story are mind-boggled at the idea of Greyhound Lines not having a spare bus between Portland and Salt Lake City.

That probably won't happen again, because they've turned the BOI<>SLC segment over to Salt Lake Express and there is only one trip a day, so it reduces the chance of needing a spare bus.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Even though buses can get pretty expensive, I imagine in most cases that the main cost of bus companies is labor. Drivers and mechanics are both highly skilled occupations. The shrinking of the network was probably because the labor cost of keeping buildings staffed was expensive. At least, this is what I think, I don't know where I could find figures on this.

 

[MARC Rider]

Even though buses can get pretty expensive, I imagine in most cases that the main cost of bus companies is labor. Drivers and mechanics are both highly skilled occupations. The shrinking of the network was probably because the labor cost of keeping buildings staffed was expensive. At least, this is what I think, I don't know where I could find figures on this.

As anyone who has seen the Megabus and Flixbus "terminals" Manhattan knows, you don't need staffed buildings to have a bus network. A public sidewalk does just fine, and if people need to wait somewhere for connections, well, the private sector can come in and open a coffee shop or bar for them. Of course, they still need a network of garages for mechanical work, but, heck, maybe they can outsource that, too.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

As anyone who has seen the Megabus and Flixbus "terminals" Manhattan knows, you don't need staffed buildings to have a bus network. A public sidewalk does just fine, and if people need to wait somewhere for connections, well, the private sector can come in and open a coffee shop or bar for them. Of course, they still need a network of garages for mechanical work, but, heck, maybe they can outsource that, too.

I would say that Flixbus doesn't have a network. Flixbus operates point-to-point trips between the busiest hubs, but they don't really have a network. If you want to go from Manhattan to Washington, DC, you can just show up at the curb and jump on a bus without too much trouble. But say you want to go from Albany, New York to Trenton, New Jersey (looking at the flixbus website right now, Albany is listed as a station, but there are currently no trips to New York), then you do need facilities, because no one wants to wait on the sidewalk.
But keeping those facilities open is costly, and it effects a smaller amount of passengers---there are a lot more people in New York City than in Albany. So for a business, it is a lot of overhead to maintain a network, staffing smaller stations might mean you lose money on them. But it is a loss leader to maintain ubiquity, which builds loyal customers.

 

[NativeSon5859]

The past two years I’ve done Greyhound NYC-LAX. Two years ago I did the northern route via Denver and Vegas… last year, the southern, via Albuquerque and Phoenix. Both had their moments of frustration but I had a great time, overall. I enjoyed seeing parts of the country from the ground that I wouldn’t typically see. I’ve started doing the bus more because I’ve ridden the entire Amtrak network probably five times over in its entirety and they’ve pretty much priced me out from taking a sleeper. But I actually like riding the bus. I even sleep better at night on a bus compared to Amtrak coach. Maybe I was dropped on my head as a kid? Lol

Anyway, next month, I’ve decided to go bigger. I’ll be doing NYC-Portland, OR via Richmond, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake, Boise. Then I’ll be going home to New Orleans via Sacramento, Reno, Las Vegas, Denver, Dallas, and Houston. 4 nights, each way, if on time. They wanted to route me via Spokane/Billings/Minneapolis on the way home but I’ve already done that route. The segment from Reno to Vegas seems really intriguing to me.

Has anyone had any experience with Salt Lake Express? Seems like I’ll be riding them SLC-BOI and RNO-LAS.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The past two years I’ve done Greyhound NYC-LAX. Two years ago I did the northern route via Denver and Vegas… last year, the southern, via Albuquerque and Phoenix. Both had their moments of frustration but I had a great time, overall. I enjoyed seeing parts of the country from the ground that I wouldn’t typically see. I’ve started doing the bus more because I’ve ridden the entire Amtrak network probably five times over in its entirety and they’ve pretty much priced me out from taking a sleeper. But I actually like riding the bus. I even sleep better at night on a bus compared to Amtrak coach. Maybe I was dropped on my head as a kid? Lol

Anyway, next month, I’ve decided to go bigger. I’ll be doing NYC-Portland, OR via Richmond, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake, Boise. Then I’ll be going home to New Orleans via Sacramento, Reno, Las Vegas, Denver, Dallas, and Houston. 4 nights, each way, if on time. They wanted to route me via Spokane/Billings/Minneapolis on the way home but I’ve already done that route. The segment from Reno to Vegas seems really intriguing to me.

Has anyone had any experience with Salt Lake Express? Seems like I’ll be riding them SLC-BOI and RNO-LAS.

I've done the Reno to Vegas segment on the Dawg. "There's No There There!" It's pretty desolate if done in Daylight.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Here in Northern New England we are basically down to 3 GL routes left, as of the December 2, 2022 timetable.
- One round trip Boston - Portland - Bangor
- One round trip Boston - Manchester NH - WR Jct. VT - Montpelier - Burlington - Montreal PQ
- One round trip Springfield MA - White River Jct. VT (which connects northbound with the Montreal bus but not southbound)

Of course there are other alternative bus lines for some of these destinations.

 

[Willbridge]

The past two years I’ve done Greyhound NYC-LAX. Two years ago I did the northern route via Denver and Vegas… last year, the southern, via Albuquerque and Phoenix. Both had their moments of frustration but I had a great time, overall. I enjoyed seeing parts of the country from the ground that I wouldn’t typically see. I’ve started doing the bus more because I’ve ridden the entire Amtrak network probably five times over in its entirety and they’ve pretty much priced me out from taking a sleeper. But I actually like riding the bus. I even sleep better at night on a bus compared to Amtrak coach. Maybe I was dropped on my head as a kid? Lol

Anyway, next month, I’ve decided to go bigger. I’ll be doing NYC-Portland, OR via Richmond, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake, Boise. Then I’ll be going home to New Orleans via Sacramento, Reno, Las Vegas, Denver, Dallas, and Houston. 4 nights, each way, if on time. They wanted to route me via Spokane/Billings/Minneapolis on the way home but I’ve already done that route. The segment from Reno to Vegas seems really intriguing to me.

Has anyone had any experience with Salt Lake Express? Seems like I’ll be riding them SLC-BOI and RNO-LAS.

Salt Lake Express seems good from what I've seen and heard. However, they've expanded very rapidly. The SLC<>BOI segment is because Greyhound Lines has reverted to the concept of dividing up long haul routes into segments, keeping through schedules, but parceling out segments to independents. So, what was the through DEN<>PDX run is now GL DEN<>SLC, Salt Lake Express for the middle part of the route, and then GL for BOI<>PDX. For some reason, it does not show in their on-line booking, sending everyone via Spokane and Billings.

 

[TheVig]

Couple of years ago or so, I saw a posting looking for drivers. Greyhound was offering a whole whopping $22.50 an hour.

No wonder they have had a nagging issue of driver shortages.

I’ve seen terminal jobs for way less than $15 an hour. Unless of course local minimum wage laws dictate otherwise.

For grins and giggles I’ve taken Peter Pan between Philly and NYC a few times. Decent drivers and staff have been my experience. Good pricing, and my fellow riders all looked like functioning members of society.

My home base of Charlotte has a fairly active Greyhound terminal. TV news worthy fights have been minimal in recent years.

 

[Willbridge]

Effective 27/28 January, the second Sacramento <> Seattle Greyhound Lines run is discontinued. It was discontinued during the Covid lockdown and then restored. For a comparison, in November 1981 there were four GL Sacramento <> Seattle trips and a similar amount of direct service from San Francisco and there were three Continental Trailways competing trips.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Effective 27/28 January, the second Sacramento <> Seattle Greyhound Lines run is discontinued. It was discontinued during the Covid lockdown and then restored. For a comparison, in November 1981 there were four GL Sacramento <> Seattle trips and a similar amount of direct service from San Francisco and there were three Continental Trailways competing trips.

Yep, and they changed the schedule around so there is not a morning trip southward.
Which also makes it harder for me to get to Eugene in the morning...

 

[Matthew H Fish]

This also relates back to the discussion about budget airlines, and the plans to reopen Salem airport.
Flying to Los Angeles or Las Vegas for cheap sure will be nifty, but if someone wants to go from Salem to Medford, even with the airport, they will have to fly to LA, then to San Francisco, then to Medford, and it will be a 12+ hour process for at least 500 dollars, based on current schedules from Eugene to Medford. For so many intermediate distance trips, Greyhound makes the most sense, and yet public attention and money is going into "nifty" options that don't make any long term economic sense.

 

[MARC Rider]

This also relates back to the discussion about budget airlines, and the plans to reopen Salem airport.
Flying to Los Angeles or Las Vegas for cheap sure will be nifty, but if someone wants to go from Salem to Medford, even with the airport, they will have to fly to LA, then to San Francisco, then to Medford, and it will be a 12+ hour process for at least 500 dollars, based on current schedules from Eugene to Medford. For so many intermediate distance trips, Greyhound makes the most sense, and yet public attention and money is going into "nifty" options that don't make any long term economic sense.

I guess Oregon is going to need to do what Colorado did and set up a state-run (or subsidized) intrastate intercity busg service like the Bustang. We could sure use something like that in Maryland, where public transportation off the Baltimore-Washington corridor is pretty minimal. Back in the 1980s, Trailways saved my rear a couple of times when I had vehicle breakdowns while doing field work on the Eastern Shore. I don't think the service exists any more. Google Maps says a public transit ride from Baltimore to Ocean City is a 6-seat ride, involving the Acela from Baltimore to Wilmington, and then a circuitous ride on 5 different buses down the length of Delaware, taking over 10 hours as opposed to a 3 hour drive by car. That's like something Miles in Transit might try and then make a You Tube video about the experience.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

I guess Oregon is going to need to do what Colorado did and set up a state-run (or subsidized) intrastate intercity busg service like the Bustang.

Oregon actually does have something like that:
https://www.oregon-point.com/The Amtrak Cascades thruway buses that follow the Portland-Eugene Cascades route are actually the Oregon POINT buses.
But there is currently only 4 routes for them, they were meant to supplement Greyhound service, not replace it. It looks like soon, they will probably have to do so.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I guess Oregon is going to need to do what Colorado did and set up a state-run (or subsidized) intrastate intercity busg service like the Bustang. We could sure use something like that in Maryland, where public transportation off the Baltimore-Washington corridor is pretty minimal. Back in the 1980s, Trailways saved my rear a couple of times when I had vehicle breakdowns while doing field work on the Eastern Shore. I don't think the service exists any more. Google Maps says a public transit ride from Baltimore to Ocean City is a 6-seat ride, involving the Acela from Baltimore to Wilmington, and then a circuitous ride on 5 different buses down the length of Delaware, taking over 10 hours as opposed to a 3 hour drive by car. That's like something Miles in Transit might try and then make a You Tube video about the experience.

Texas needs this too! There are Huge Areas of Texas where driving is the only means of getting to/from those Areas.( I'm sure you know this from your trips to West Texas!)

 

[BlackDiamond]

Happened to be in Lewiston ME today which still has it's Greyhound bus station which is also used as a hub by the local transit system for L/A.

Lewiston is down to 1 trip a day from Portland (was 2 to 3 only a few years ago) competition from Concord Coach probably hasn't helped.

 

[Lcon]

Here in Northern New England we are basically down to 3 GL routes left, as of the December 2, 2022 timetable.
- One round trip Boston - Portland - Bangor
- One round trip Boston - Manchester NH - WR Jct. VT - Montpelier - Burlington - Montreal PQ
- One round trip Springfield MA - White River Jct. VT (which connects northbound with the Montreal bus but not southbound)

Of course there are other alternative bus lines for some of these destinations.

I used to Work the old Springfield and Northampton terminals about a decade back. I was a ticket agent for Peterpan bus. We used to joke the dawg had fleas. A lot of service cut backs were evident back then and the Greyhound phase out of Vermont Transit was going on. Less and less did we see the green and white VT coaches and their drivers dressed like forest rangers more and more we saw the Blue and grey with the blue suits. The VT drivers knew the route and knew it well but most were on the way to retirements though and soon enough... The Greyhound drivers seemed like they were picked by drawn lots.
I’ll never forget the day a Greyhound driver pulled in to Northampton got off the bus. Came to my desk and in a thick Texas drawl asked “Where the … he was and how to get to his next stop.”
After some time we got that he had reported to work in Dallas TX as an on Call they had sent him to New Orleans where after a rest they dispatched him to Florida. And from then on this poor guy would get set in a hotel room for some shut eye and a meal, report back to dispatch in hopes of a return trip only to be sent farther up the east coast and now he was on his way to White River Junction.
What a way to run a Bus line.

 

[MisterUptempo]

While Greyhound still has a couple of years to find a solution, it appears that, like in other cities recently, the Greyhound station near Chicago Union Station will be sold out from under them.

Greyhound bus station near downtown Chicago is up for sale​

A Connecticut investment firm that just bought the Greyhound bus station near downtown Chicago has put it up for sale, wagering that a developer will buy it for a high-rise project.

Twenty Lake Holdings has hired CBRE to sell the bus depot at 630 W. Harrison St., next to the Jane Byrne Interchange. Totaling about 88,000 square feet, the site could accommodate a big development, possibly with two towers, said Keely Polczynski, senior vice president in CBRE’s Chicago office. She expects the property to fetch a price in the low- to mid-$20 million range.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Twenty Lake acquired the Chicago bus station in December through a $140 million deal for 33 Greyhound properties around the country. Now, less than two months later, it’s trying to flip the Chicago bus depot.


Greyhound still operates the station under a lease that expires in a couple years, said Polczynski. Though Greyhound pays about $1 million annually in rent, prospective buyers are likely to look past that to the property’s development potential. Under its current zoning, a new owner could clear the site and build 1 million square feet in its place, including zoning bonuses, Polczynski said.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It’s unclear why Twenty Lake has decided to put the Greyhound property up for sale now. The firm paid $25 million for the parcel in mid-December, according to Cook County records, so it’s possible it could even lose money on a sale. Twenty Lake representatives did not respond to requests for comment.


The other unknown: Where will Greyhound go after its lease expires a couple years from now? Will it open a new bus station somewhere else in the city? A spokesman for Greyhound, which was acquired by German company FlixMobility in 2021, declined discuss its plans for Chicago.

The rest of the story can be found at Crain's Chicago Business (paywalled).

 

[railiner]

I used to Work the old Springfield and Northampton terminals about a decade back. I was a ticket agent for Peterpan bus. We used to joke the dawg had fleas. A lot of service cut backs were evident back then and the Greyhound phase out of Vermont Transit was going on. Less and less did we see the green and white VT coaches and their drivers dressed like forest rangers more and more we saw the Blue and grey with the blue suits. The VT drivers knew the route and knew it well but most were on the way to retirements though and soon enough... The Greyhound drivers seemed like they were picked by drawn lots.
I’ll never forget the day a Greyhound driver pulled in to Northampton got off the bus. Came to my desk and in a thick Texas drawl asked “Where the … he was and how to get to his next stop.”
After some time we got that he had reported to work in Dallas TX as an on Call they had sent him to New Orleans where after a rest they dispatched him to Florida. And from then on this poor guy would get set in a hotel room for some shut eye and a meal, report back to dispatch in hopes of a return trip only to be sent farther up the east coast and now he was on his way to White River Junction.
What a way to run a Bus line.

That is a very unusual case.
In recent years, when Greyhound had a severe driver shortage in particular locations, such as New York City, they would ask for “supplemental” drivers to come in from other locations, where they might have an abundance at times. In such case, they might fly them , and provide food and lodging for the duration.
They would give these drivers a paper “route guide”, and dispatch them on regular routes, as needed…

 

[Fenway]

Vermont Transit was special.

I remember one Sunday night, Monday morning 50 years ago they were swamped by Bruins fans returning from Montreal. Greyhound Canada added extra buses to Burlington and then let VT figure it out. In Burlington, they booked us on a bus to Rutland that would connect at a diner to a bus from Albany going to Boston - We got to Rutland, the diner was closed, and no sign of the other bus and the driver waited because it was below zero.

I did cross-country once on Greyhound in 2007 from SF-Boston. It was an experience.......

The Chinese buses really hurt the legacy carriers as many thought how bad could a 4-hour trip between Boston/NYC be if I am only paying $10



I took a Fung Wah ONCE - On a Monday afternoon we left Boston Chinatown at 5 PM and arrived in Manhattan at 7:50 PM.