More restrictive ticketing non refundable no changes coming March 1, 2020

[Anderson]

@John Bobinyec Seeing as we're in the "rumors of war" phase of this latest mess, there's no good way to tell. My best guess is that there will be a related change over at AGR, but it will come down separately.

 

[pennyk]

I have heard a rumor that starting March 1st, there will be new change fees to certain reservations.

If I am understanding correctly, the change fees will not apply to non-Acela BC, Acela FC and sleepers. It also appears that change fees will not apply to AGR members with Select Executive status.

It appears that lower fare tickets will be subject to new change fees, but I was not informed what those fees would be.

Since March 1st is right around the corner, if this information is accurate, it should be confirmed in the near future.

EDIT: Thanks to Thirdrail's information, this post/new thread was merged into an existing thread started in December.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I have heard a rumor that starting March 1st, there will be new change fees to certain reservations.

If I am understanding correctly, the change fees will not apply to non-Acela BC, Acela FC and sleepers. It also appears that change fees will not apply to AGR members with Select Executive status.

It appears that lower fare tickets will be subject to new change fees, but I was not informed what those fees would be.

Since March 1st is right around the corner, if this information is accurate, it should be confirmed in the near future.

More "Me too" Airline Stuff from the Flyboys!

They should check out the Southwest Airline Policies, they seem to work and Southwest is consistently successful over the decades.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I have heard a rumor that starting March 1st, there will be new change fees to certain reservations.

If I am understanding correctly, the change fees will not apply to non-Acela BC, Acela FC and sleepers. It also appears that change fees will not apply to AGR members with Select Executive status.

It appears that lower fare tickets will be subject to new change fees, but I was not informed what those fees would be.

Since March 1st is right around the corner, if this information is accurate, it should be confirmed in the near future.

It was enclosed in an article last year. Here is the thread:

More restrictive ticketing non refundable no changes coming soon
https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/th...-non-refundable-no-changes-coming-soon.76633/

MODERATOR NOTE: the new thread was merged into the existing thread. Thanks Thirdrail7

 

[jebr]

Details, from the Washington Post:

Effective March 1:

Saver fares are "use it or lose it" after an initial 24-hour window after ticket purchase.
Value fares will be subject to a 25% cancellation fee or 15% change fee if changes are made within two weeks of departure.
No changes to flexible or premium fares. No mention of sleeper fares.

Article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...ac2700-4e9a-11ea-bf44-f5043eb3918a_story.html

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

“Amtrak added nonstop Acela service between the District and New York last fall, freshened up train interiors with new carpet, seat covers and cushions, and upgraded bedding, towels and linens in long-distance accommodations.”

Untrue


“Executive Vice President Roger Harris, who is Amtrak’s chief marketing and revenue officer and also a former airline executive, said the new rules around low-end fares are a trade-off that will allow the railroad to make “the very lowest fares even lower.”
Probably untrue, same guy who touted the new contemporary meals and new amenities.


“Passengers holding flexible, business and Acela First-Class Premium tickets will continue to enjoy the flexibility to make changes and receive a full refund up to the moment of departure. Those fares are much more expensive than saver and value fares.”

If they mess with more restrictions on sleepers it could decimate long distance ridership and revenue. Terrible news all and all.

 

[bretton88]

I actually don't mind this change. Amtrak always couldn't provide a good answer on why you would want to pay more for the Value fare, because it was the same accommodation for basically the same conditions. With saver fares going non refundable, there's a real difference between Saver and Value.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I actually don't mind this change. Amtrak always couldn't provide a good answer on why you would want to pay more for the Value fare, because it was the same accommodation for basically the same conditions. With saver fares going non refundable, there's a real difference between Saver and Value.

True enough, but when an Emergency occurs requiring a Cancellation of a Rail trip in Coach, you may be out a $100 or so, not a good thought!

Change Fees,Baggsge Fees and No refund Fares are gravy for Companies that use them! How does Southwest Airlines stay in business ???

 

[Bex]

Yikes, this is terrible news for me, I only buy Saver fares (often during sales) and I buy them months in advance so that I can get that fare. 90% of the time I know my schedule well enough to not need to make any change but that 10% is going to be terribly costly.

Edited, just thought of a few questions:
a. if you bought a Saver fare before 3/1, does this apply?
b. If you do not ride a train but get charged anyway because it's non-refundable, do you get the TQP's?
c. Will this begin a secondary market for ticket resale? (I have literally never had my ID checked and I've been riding twice a week for seven years).


Edited again, found the answer to my first question, fees will not apply to "the first change to a reservation made prior to March 1, 2020." https://media.amtrak.com/2020/02/updated-fares-provide-increased-options-for-savings/

And if that link is telling the truth and Saver fares are going down, it may end up a wash for me. I guess we'll see.

 

[user 14106]

“Amtrak added nonstop Acela service between the District and New York last fall, freshened up train interiors with new carpet, seat covers and cushions, and upgraded bedding, towels and linens in long-distance accommodations.”

Untrue


“Executive Vice President Roger Harris, who is Amtrak’s chief marketing and revenue officer and also a former airline executive, said the new rules around low-end fares are a trade-off that will allow the railroad to make “the very lowest fares even lower.”
Probably untrue, same guy who touted the new contemporary meals and new amenities.


“Passengers holding flexible, business and Acela First-Class Premium tickets will continue to enjoy the flexibility to make changes and receive a full refund up to the moment of departure. Those fares are much more expensive than saver and value fares.”

If they mess with more restrictions on sleepers it could decimate long distance ridership and revenue. Terrible news all and all.

Why would they put such change restrictions on sleepers? I can’t imagine that. They are the most expensive tickets in the system. Airlines don’t do it for first class and that is the equivalent of first class on those trains and they are modeling this off the airlines. They aren’t even doing it for business class on the regionals. I don’t see how this has any unique effect on long distance trains. This change could effect ridership on corridors as well if people reject it. These are annoying changes but I don’t even think these guys are cynical enough to put change fees on the premium offerings. This is aimed at coach passengers.

 

[iplaybass]

Why would they put such change restrictions on sleepers? I can’t imagine that. They are the most expensive tickets in the system. Airlines don’t do it for first class and that is the equivalent of first class on those trains and they are modeling this off the airlines. They aren’t even doing it for business class on the regionals. I don’t see how this has any unique effect on long distance trains. This change could effect ridership on corridors as well if people reject it. These are annoying changes but I don’t even think these guys are cynical enough to put change fees on the premium offerings. This is aimed at coach passengers.

Airlines do put restrictions on first class tickets. They offer a choice: "flexible" fares have no restrictions, and are generally the most expensive fares. However, there are non-refundable first class tickets, subject to change fees.

Unless your business requires it, or there are no "lower bucket" fares available, I can't think of any reason you would buy a flexible first class fare, but there are those who do. It's only a matter of time before the airline executives in charge of Amtrak bring this proven airline practice to the train.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Amtrak must be bursting at the seams to keep adding more restrictions and harsher penalties. Yet when I travel I tend to see emptier trains than before. On a Western LD trip last year they didn't bother taking reservations for lunch or dinner and the diner never reached more than about 30% full. That was a new experience for me. During holiday travel periods I used to see numerous trains sold out, but that hasn't been the case in a couple years now. Makes me wonder how the passenger numbers are supposedly still improving.

 

[Anderson]

Yep, I'm done frakking around with Amtrak. I'm probably going to limp in at Select Plus this year (and then mainly because of the CCs; without them, S+ would be an open question), but that represents close to a 2/3 drop in my business (16k TQPs dropping to about 6k TQPs), most of which will be limited to certain circumstances (mainly attending SF conventions on the NEC where there are lousy air alternatives). I'm also going to check fares ORF-WAS for the RPA spring meeting (I'll probably end up driving, but that's because my Eldorado needs to get dropped off with a repair guy and the timing is just right). I wish Amtrak nothing but the absolute worst with these changes.

@Devil's Advocate You're right that the LD trains aren't seeing ridership growth (if anything, this BS is causing them to lose business there). I think that's part of the plan. However, the NEC is dealing with capacity issues (I remember observing some years back that the NEC was going to hit a capacity crunch eventually), and even if this dents ridership the ability to milk non-refundable ticket revenue probably makes up for some of those losses. A theoretical 1% hit to ridership would be offset if Amtrak is able to "take the money and run" on 2.5% no-shows, and those numbers seem reasonable.

 

[user 14106]

Airlines do put restrictions on first class tickets. They offer a choice: "flexible" fares have no restrictions, and are generally the most expensive fares. However, there are non-refundable first class tickets, subject to change fees.

Unless your business requires it, or there are no "lower bucket" fares available, I can't think of any reason you would buy a flexible first class fare, but there are those who do. It's only a matter of time before the airline executives in charge of Amtrak bring this proven airline practice to the train.

Didn't realize airlines were doing that is it pretty universal? I still feel (and some may disagree) that Amtrak will leave the premium offerings alone at least for now. I frankly don't feel that boycotting is going to solve any of this. The best option, as usual with Amtrak, is for those that oppose these changes to contact your legislator. Re authorization is right around the corner and it is an opportunity to reign in the management for some of their more problematic decisions such as this. I am not going to stop riding for one because it doesn't change the fact that I enjoy train travel, and two if the goal is to sabotage ridership I don't see how boycotting helps particularly those that boycott the long distance trains as a result of the change fees but continue using corridor services. Not that I am arguing that people should just accept any fare and blindly accept fare increases and fees every time, but I just don't think boycotting out of principle really works with a situation like this.

 

[jis]

Maybe it just happens to be the airlines that I deal with, but I am yet to come across a so called non-refundable upper class and even standard coach fare that is not bankable for reusing the value for a fee later. The fee is usually of the order of $200 for domestic and $400 for international. In my experience the entire value is reusable, but when it is reused a fixed fee is collected. Note that I am not saying that there aren't examples where it is done differently. It is just that I have never come across such in my travels.

Since typical train fares are much lower than typical plane fares, as the typical train journey is for much shorter distances than typical plane journeys, of course the fee for reuse would have to be handled differently, and in effect they appear to have specified it as a percentage of the fare rather than a fixed amount.

 

[Anderson]

Maybe it just happens to be the airlines that I deal with, but I am yet to come across a so called non-refundable upper class and even standard coach fare that is not bankable for reusing the value for a fee later. The fee is usually of the order of $200 for domestic and $400 for international. In my experience the entire value is reusable, but when it is reused a fixed fee is collected. Note that I am not saying that there aren't examples where it is done differently. It is just that I have never come across such in my travels.

Since typical train fares are much lower than typical plane fares, as the typical train journey is for much shorter distances than typical plane journeys, of course the fee for reuse would have to be handled differently, and in effect they appear to have specified it as a percentage of the fare rather than a fixed amount.

I don't think that qualifies as "the entire value is reusable". Whether the dent occurs at the time of cancellation or of reuse, a portion is hacked off.

To be fair, this suggests that you haven't encountered Basic Economy (where restrictions like that come into play).

Moving on to one other relevant point: I've said before that I'm regarding Amtrak's touted sleeper improvements as vaporware. They've been talking them up for long enough; at this point they need to put up or shut up with at least a hard roll-out date.

 

[jis]

Never ass-ume I do know about basic economy. I guess in your hurry to respond you missed my specific use of the phrase "standard coach fare". I specifically excluded basic economy by not mentioning it. I have never used it and never will. Similarly I never us the new fangled lowest fare level on Amtrak. It does not suit my lifestyle.

Also if I know that there is a significant chance that a ticket will need to be changed, I do take care to buy an appropriate fare class that allows such change if that fare is lower than the fare plus the change fee for a lower fare class that is available. The latter still keeps a risk in that the same lower fare class may not be available when the change is made. Again depending on the situation I may choose to take that risk or not.

Kind of pointless to argue the semantics of whether the entire amount is available for a fee or something is hacked off. Tomayto Tomaato. Have it your way. The result is the same.

However since the fee can be larger than the value of the ticket carried forward one could and sometimes does land up with a negative amount to apply to a new ticket. Needless to say, that is a pretty dumb thing to do. Using the Amtrak percentage of the fare witheld method you can never land up with a negative value. In that sense the Amtrak method is better since you never forfeit the entire value of a canceled ticket, unless it is a ticket of the truly non-refundable kind.

 

[Old MM]

So Amtrak is reducing the Saver fare in exchange for less flexibility in usage. That is airline ticketing practices. Deep discounts available, but you're out of luck if plans change. Checking a random date in May for the Wolverine from Ann Arbor (a major boarding station) to Chicago, the Saver fare is now $32 instead of $34. That $2 savings will be recouped by Amtrak when more people elect to buy cancellation insurance (if it applies to that fare)

 

[Bex]

So Amtrak is reducing the Saver fare in exchange for less flexibility in usage. That is airline ticketing practices. Deep discounts available, but you're out of luck if plans change. Checking a random date in May for the Wolverine from Ann Arbor (a major boarding station) to Chicago, the Saver fare is now $32 instead of $34. That $2 savings will be recouped by Amtrak when more people elect to buy cancellation insurance (if it applies to that fare)

According to the link in my previous post, which is Amtrak's own PR, the new bottom of the basement fares begin on 3/2, so I wouldn't look for them now.

I have a few trips to buy before summer and I'm trying to decide whether to buy them now and have the flexibility to change once if needed or see if they'll be cheaper next week. My conclusion will probably be to buy now and change once to the cheaper fare if it exists.

 

[Barb Stout]

Do the saver, value, and flexible fares relate in any direct way to low bucket, medium buckets, and high buckets?

 

[John Bobinyec]

Here's a situation that happens to me sometimes. I've got a Value reservation on train 77 to Charlotte. Let's say things are so bad that it is known that 77 will probably be cancelled. Usually this is weather related. Suppose all this happens so that I could rebook on an earlier train, 75 (same day). Do I get charged the penalties or because Amtrak is having severe problems I won't get charged the penalties?

jb

 

[Anderson]

Here's a situation that happens to me sometimes. I've got a Value reservation on train 77 to Charlotte. Let's say things are so bad that it is known that 77 will probably be cancelled. Usually this is weather related. Suppose all this happens so that I could rebook on an earlier train, 75 (same day). Do I get charged the penalties or because Amtrak is having severe problems I won't get charged the penalties?

jb

It depends. Most airlines would, at this stage, issue a waiver in advance (anywhere from 1-5 days out). If Amtrak does that, it's one thing; if Amtrak doesn't...*sighs*

 

[Anderson]

Do the saver, value, and flexible fares relate in any direct way to low bucket, medium buckets, and high buckets?

Sort-of. Saver is usually going to be at or below "low bucket". Flexible fare is usually going to be "high bucket". Value lands somewhere in the middle.

(NB Sometimes Business/First fares seem to attach to "saver" fares and odd stuff happens on the computer end.)

 

[JC_620]

So, question: If Amtrak is now charging $2,038 on their high bucket fare for #28 from PDX-CHI, what do you think that the "Saver Fare" would be if they offered one for this?

 

[jacorbett70]

All I know is that change fees for value fares will have me cutting back enough on Amtrak travel that I plan to cancel the fee Mastercard and downgrade to the non-fee one since the fee one was only to obtain status that I will no longer be pursuing.
For example, the flexible one-way PHL-NY regional/Keystone coach fare has gone up to $120. There are other options for the trip (including the Trenton Shuffle SEPTA/NJT) and I should know when to fold when the fares and airline terms/conditions get this crazy for a 90-mile trip.