New Amtrak Proposed Routes Map has Dropped

[sttom]

Pity their vision doesn't extend to a connection with the SW Chief.

I’ve mentioned this a couple times on various threads, but I’ve talked to my partner who is a Colorado native about this and watched one of CDOT’s town halls about it. Because of Colorado’s constitutional weirdness about taxes and spending, they will need to create a special tax district to fund the line after the federal money runs out. And his cynical opinion is that a district between Fort Collins and Pueblo is more likely to pass a tax to fund the line long term than trying to extend it somewhere else like to La Junta or Albuquerque. Either would make sense, but would require a larger district that could make the campaign to pass it into existence harder or the state legislature having to shake out its couch cushions for a few million extra dollars. Either way CDOT’s private opinion is likely to have a route that will exist long term and be useful vs trying to pass something us train fans would like that would be a harder sell to voters who might be having buyers remorse over FasTracks. Or at least use RTD’s failures as a reason to kill this line or a more extensive one. Either way local politics is going to rule this because of the 750 mile rule and the fleeting nature of federal funding.

I’m guessing the Cheyenne part is wishful thinking on Amtrak’s part. Hoping that Wyoming will pay for service north of Fort Collins. I know for sure Colorado won’t pay for it. They’d pay for a La Junta extension far before a Cheyenne one.

 

[railiner]

Yep - guessing it's to offer an option for people to get to Duluth for medical appointments - better hope your specialist has an appointment available on the second Friday of the month!

View attachment 21800

(from the brochure available here: Koochiching County | Arrowhead Transit)

Reminiscent of the regulated era, when carriers had to make once a week, or sometimes once a month “franchise runs” on otherwise dormant routes in order to hold on to their rights.

 

[railiner]

Those seem like excellent times. A connection from the westbound Chief could reach Denver in mid-morning and leave in mid-to-late afternoon to connect to the eastbound. It's a mystery to me why Amtrak would put forth a vision for local service between Pueblo and Denver that wouldn't make this most obvious connection to their existing network.

And they could run a second trip early morning from Denver to Trinidad to connect to the Chief for south/west bound passengers, and return to Denver late afternoon for those off the Chief going north/east.
And maybe later more trips between, to connect with the Zephyrs.
And then....you have a “corridor”...

 

[jiml]

Reminiscent of the regulated era, when carriers had to make once a week, or sometimes once a month “franchise runs” on otherwise dormant routes in order to hold on to their rights.

Sounds like Parliamentary Routes in the UK - still in effect today.

 

[MisterUptempo]

The High Speed Rail Association hosted an online presentation/Q&A today with Derrick James, Director of Government Affairs for Amtrak regarding the 2035 Vision.



Not a lot of new ground covered, more of a reiteration of Amtrak's desire to concentrate future growth on regional corridors rather than new long-distance service. For example, during the Q&A, when the North Coast Hiawatha was mentioned, James said, in essence, if those wishing to establish the route have the money to start the service, Amtrak would be happy to run it for them.

James presented a graphic which explains while in 2021 for every one person living in a rural setting in the US there are four who live in an urban setting. In 2050, for every one person living in a rural setting there will be nine people living in an urban setting. Seems like Amtrak is using that as a justification for keeping the long-distance routes in stasis. He also stated that establishing/enhancing routes between 100-400 miles was the overriding goal because that is where Amtrak believes it can most effectively serve the greatest number people and has the best return on the dollar.

Also related to long-distance, he mentioned that there will be "enhancements" to the long distance passenger experience, though he does not elaborate on what those enhancements will be. He mentioned that while Amtrak would like to replace the Superliners and have requested the funds to do that, they also have planned on the possibility that funds don't arrive anytime soon, which would require another refresh of the current Superliners.

And before anyone asks, no, there was no discussion about the Flex Meals.

 

[Crowbar_k]

James presented a graphic which explains while in 2021 for every one person living in a rural setting in the US there are four who live in an urban setting. In 2050, for every one person living in a rural setting there will be nine people living in an urban setting.

I mean, it's true.

 

[MisterUptempo]

I mean, it's true.

Yeah, I get that. It's obvious. I'm not doubting the veracity of the figures.

I'm just trying to point out that as of late Amtrak has been less than keen on improving or expanding long-distance( as many here can attest), and they have decided to lean on these stats heavily to justify some p!ss-poor performance.

 

[NES28]

Note that none of the proposed routes are more than about 500 miles to ensure that they will be "state supported" services and, thus have to be paid for by the states (after the "introductory offer" expires). This ignores the fact that some long distance services are, in reality, 2 corridors in one, i.e. Chicago-Cleveland + Cleveland-NYC or Chicago-Nashville + Nashville-Florida.

 

[Anderson]

Yeah, I get that. It's obvious. I'm not doubting the veracity of the figures.

I'm just trying to point out that as of late Amtrak has been less than keen on improving or expanding long-distance( as many here can attest), and they have decided to lean on these stats heavily to justify some p!ss-poor performance.

It also doesn't help that the LD trains aren't just some "rural transit" item (unless NYP-RVR, NYP-ORL, and WAS-JAX are "rural" markets on the Silver Service...). They do connect major cities...just vis-a-vis planes, they can actually pick up folks in between.

 

[Willbridge]

I’ve mentioned this a couple times on various threads, but I’ve talked to my partner who is a Colorado native about this and watched one of CDOT’s town halls about it. Because of Colorado’s constitutional weirdness about taxes and spending, they will need to create a special tax district to fund the line after the federal money runs out. And his cynical opinion is that a district between Fort Collins and Pueblo is more likely to pass a tax to fund the line long term than trying to extend it somewhere else like to La Junta or Albuquerque. Either would make sense, but would require a larger district that could make the campaign to pass it into existence harder or the state legislature having to shake out its couch cushions for a few million extra dollars. Either way CDOT’s private opinion is likely to have a route that will exist long term and be useful vs trying to pass something us train fans would like that would be a harder sell to voters who might be having buyers remorse over FasTracks. Or at least use RTD’s failures as a reason to kill this line or a more extensive one. Either way local politics is going to rule this because of the 750 mile rule and the fleeting nature of federal funding.

I’m guessing the Cheyenne part is wishful thinking on Amtrak’s part. Hoping that Wyoming will pay for service north of Fort Collins. I know for sure Colorado won’t pay for it. They’d pay for a La Junta extension far before a Cheyenne one.

The State of Wyoming has an observer in the panel that is supervising the study. I haven't heard recently but their idea is that once a service is up and running to Fort Collins that their businesses and voters will demand the incremental expenditure so they want to be prepared. As an example, the Southeast LRT extension at RTD was built sooner than planned because the City of Lone Tree wanted it and came up with financing for it. They could have just kept driving or riding the feeder bus line to the previous end of the line. The same thing could happen with Cheyenne.

 

[jis]

The sliver of 2020 before the coronavirus pandemic hit found Virginia Transportation Secretary Shannon Valentine feeling optimistic about the future. The General Assembly passed legislation backed by Gov. Ralph Northam (D) to restructure the state’s transportation funding and opened new options for promoting rail and transit.

Then the virus threatened to throw her department into disarray, biting into gas tax revenue as people stayed home. But the General Assembly stepped in, providing financial flexibility that Valentine said allowed her to avoid layoffs or delays to construction projects.

With the pandemic underscoring the importance of reliable transportation options, Valentine, who has been in the job since 2018, is again looking to the future. She spoke to The Washington Post about how Virginia is tackling some of the biggest questions in transportation and what President Biden’s infrastructure push might mean for the state. This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

Virginia is rethinking its road and rail networks in planning for the long term

 

[jruff001]

Virginia is rethinking its road and rail networks in planning for the long term

What Virginia is doing is really incredible. Probably the most significant development in passenger rail in the U.S. in a generation. And a real paradigm shift from the typical highway building & expanding mentality.

(Edited to add: It could be topped by Gateway / Hudson River replacement tunnels, but I am not sure of the status of that from month to month (although I haven't been following that closely lately). Virginia seems to have committed to its project.)

 

[neroden]

I’m guessing the Cheyenne part is wishful thinking on Amtrak’s part. Hoping that Wyoming will pay for service north of Fort Collins. I know for sure Colorado won’t pay for it. They’d pay for a La Junta extension far before a Cheyenne one.

Cheyenne is reasonably likely to pay for the extension past the Colorado border, even if Wyoming won't. What might not be obvious is that at this point Cheyenne and Laramie are practically suburbs of Denver, economically speaking. Fort Collins to Cheyenne is only 40 miles, 30 of which is in Colorado, and a lot of people commute between the two, so there will be in-Colorado support for going to Cheyenne -- and a lot of support from within Cheyenne, probably enough to get those 40 miles of operations paid for.

 

[neroden]

James presented a graphic which explains while in 2021 for every one person living in a rural setting in the US there are four who live in an urban setting. In 2050, for every one person living in a rural setting there will be nine people living in an urban setting. Seems like Amtrak is using that as a justification for keeping the long-distance routes in stasis.

Which is a pretty stupid leap of illogic when you consider that the Lake Shore Limited doesn't have a single rural stop on its entire route. It's 100% urban. Denver-Kansas City-Chicago is not exactly rural, either. And of course most of the Silver Service and most of the Crescent is urban.

There is a serious mentality problem at Amtrak if they haven't figured out that the so-called long-distance trains connect urban areas to urban areas.

Nobody, or at least very few people, are asking for more West Glacier Park stops. We're asking for more and better service between cities like Syracuse, NY and Chicago (in the case of the route I take most often) -- or better yet, Ithaca, NY and Chicago.

 

[JontyMort]

Sounds like Parliamentary Routes in the UK - still in effect today.

Although in the case of the “Parly” trains in the UK, it is more to fulfil obligations rather than to ensure loss of rights. The statutory procedure for abandoning service is cumbersome, and in practice the franchisee often just runs one train a week. There have been some extreme examples over the years where they bustituted throughout - indeed leading to the coining of the word “taxistuted”.

Needless to say, such shenanigans appeal to the British railfan’s sense of the absurd, and one such service - Stockport to Stalybridge via Denton (the “Flying Dentonian”) - has cult status. This is, no doubt, helped by there being an excellent bar on the platform at Stalybridge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denton_railway_station

 

[west point]

Virginia is really only having one possible impediment to their plans. That of course is the second bridge parallel to Long Bridge. That project really needs to get started ASAP. That bridge , the B&P 4 new bores, and Gateway Hudson river new bores are probably the most critical to allow additional trains throughout the NEC. Long Bridge in service will allow for more train to pass than either the present North river bores and the present B&P bore.

Unfortunately the schedule to get the new North river bores means that project will be completed last of the above 3 mentioned. IMO the next NEC item is getting the 3 movable bridges between PHL and WASH replaced with fixed 4 track bridging. That is 2 - two track bridges at each location.

 

[railiner]

Cheyenne is reasonably likely to pay for the extension past the Colorado border, even if Wyoming won't. What might not be obvious is that at this point Cheyenne and Laramie are practically suburbs of Denver, economically speaking. Fort Collins to Cheyenne is only 40 miles, 30 of which is in Colorado, and a lot of people commute between the two, so there will be in-Colorado support for going to Cheyenne -- and a lot of support from within Cheyenne, probably enough to get those 40 miles of operations paid for.

I wonder about that. Clearly the user's of that extension will be almost entirely Cheyenne residents, as Coloradan's have no interest in going to Cheyenne, except perhaps once a year during the Frontier Days events. Patronage will be either commuter's, shopper's, those seeking medical and other services, and traveler's going to Denver International Airport. So Colorado businesses will benefit, and perhaps Cheyenne businesses will lose some patronage, including Cheyenne's relatively few commercial flights.

 

[neroden]

Virginia is really only having one possible impediment to their plans. That of course is the second bridge parallel to Long Bridge. That project really needs to get started ASAP.

They've finished the design and environmental clearance, and even CSX approval of the design, and are awaiting only the completion of funding. If I remember correctly, they even have the details of the revised L'Enfant Plaza Station, which was the most unclear element for a long time. So it's basically ready to go when funding is available. I'm actually impressed at the lack of obstacles.

They have the design for the flyovers around Alexandria done too.

 

[jis]

Virginia is really only having one possible impediment to their plans. That of course is the second bridge parallel to Long Bridge.

I thought the second two track bridge is an integral part of Virginia's Plan. Is it somehow separate from the rest of it?

Ah yes. Here is the FEIS/ROD:

http://longbridgeproject.com/feisrod/

 

[crescent-zephyr]

For example, during the Q&A, when the North Coast Hiawatha was mentioned, James said, in essence, if those wishing to establish the route have the money to start the service, Amtrak would be happy to run it for them.

Yeah if only the United States would give Amtrak more money they could run more trains. Oh wait....

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Cheyenne is reasonably likely to pay for the extension past the Colorado border, even if Wyoming won't. What might not be obvious is that at this point Cheyenne and Laramie are practically suburbs of Denver, economically speaking. Fort Collins to Cheyenne is only 40 miles, 30 of which is in Colorado, and a lot of people commute between the two, so there will be in-Colorado support for going to Cheyenne -- and a lot of support from within Cheyenne, probably enough to get those 40 miles of operations paid for.

First I do support including Cheyenne into a rail system for Denver Area.

Fort Collins to Cheyenne is a wild stretch of road. Nothing there, but the wind. I am not sure if you could do any development of the area either.

The question is Intercity, Heavy, or Light. Denver has to choose a system. The financial issues of the RTA is gummy up the works for the area. But yes we do need to incorporate Cheyenne with the greater Denver master plan.

 

[me_little_me]

So Colorado businesses will benefit, and perhaps Cheyenne businesses will lose some patronage, including Cheyenne's relatively few commercial flights.

Wouldn't that be good? Instead of a short hop at thousands of dollars on an air taxi or a $64 bus ride, one could travel for a LOT less or in far more comfort in a train to Denver airport. This is a situation just like Macon airport to Atlanta metioned in another thread.

 

[railiner]

Wouldn't that be good? Instead of a short hop at thousands of dollars on an air taxi or a $64 bus ride, one could travel for a LOT less or in far more comfort in a train to Denver airport. This is a situation just like Macon airport to Atlanta metioned in another thread.

That would be entirely on one's point of view. If you lived in Cheyenne, instead of driving or being driven a few minutes to a friendly little airport with easy use, and getting a quick flight to a hub like Salt Lake City or Dallas, you would instead have to get a ride to the train station, ride for a couple of hours to the huge and expensive DIA and then first get on a flight.
The loss of some business, could be just enough, to mean the elimination of some of those flights, which could also eliminate jobs, and eventually mean the loss of all commercial air service to a state's capital city, which in turn would hurt future business development for the city and state.

The point being, that there is a plus and minus to everything...

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Well in that case we shouldn’t have any more trains, or any more transit options because it may somehow change everything in the future through some weird butterfly effect!

 

[me_little_me]

That would be entirely on one's point of view. If you lived in Cheyenne, instead of driving or being driven a few minutes to a friendly little airport with easy use, and getting a quick flight to a hub like Salt Lake City or Dallas, you would instead have to get a ride to the train station, ride for a couple of hours to the huge and expensive DIA and then first get on a flight.
The loss of some business, could be just enough, to mean the elimination of some of those flights, which could also eliminate jobs, and eventually mean the loss of all commercial air service to a state's capital city, which in turn would hurt future business development for the city and state.

The point being, that there is a plus and minus to everything...

It appears there are no quick flights to SLC - all that exists, apparently, is quick flights to Denver.