New Amtrak Proposed Routes Map has Dropped

[NS VIA Fan]

I can’t imagine US and Canadian border crossings getting easier... but it’s a lovely dream!

The legislation is already there...... just needs to be implemented. But if we were talking airlines here....No Problem! There's been US pre-clearance at Canadian Airports since the early 1950s!

 

[jiml]

With GO planning increased service Niagara Falls ON once this thing is over.....it would make sense to terminate the Maple Leaf at the Border.

Passengers arriving on the Empire Service would clear Canadian CBSA in a joint facility in the new Amtrak Station on the US side then board a GO Train for Toronto. In the opposite direction....a couple of GO Trains a day could be extended to NF NY where passengers clear US CBP then continue on the Empire Service.

And a joint pre-clearance facility seems to have the backing of Sen Schumer (article from last year):

Schumer to Canada: Implement pre-clearance for Amtrak trains

With a little schedule coordination there could be a couple of services a day each way between Toronto and New York.

That is exactly my understanding and was the plan pre-pandemic. There should be 4x daily GO trains on the route, with 2 of them meeting Amtrak services, and possibly even more on the weekends. The two stumbling blocks I've heard of are permission for GO Transit trains to cross the bridge (related to how GO staffing is handled) and CBSA reluctance to work across the river. Neither of these preclude a service pattern being implemented, however passengers would have to be bused between the two NF stations and during the last bridge maintenance that became a problem.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

There should be a 1 seat ride from New York to Toronto that does not require exiting the train with your luggage.

Anything else is going backwards!

 

[NS VIA Fan]

There should be a 1 seat ride from New York to Toronto that does not require exiting the train with your luggage........

If you could have coordination between between GO and Amtrak offering a choice of at least a couple of trains each way in one facility I'd certainly go for that vs the one seat ride! And would probably be faster too with proper scheduling.

 

[jiml]

There should be a 1 seat ride from New York to Toronto that does not require exiting the train with your luggage.

Anything else is going backwards!

I don't think anyone would disagree, however what you're saying wasn't possible on the Maple Leaf for many years when it was running.

 

[jiml]

It's been some time since I've been to the Niagara Falls, NY, station, so don't know if the needed track and platform work to permit two trains in the station at a time was ever completed. An abandoned south track had been severed from the main line and it would also need a platform and pedestrian overpass to access the station.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I don't think anyone would disagree, however what you're saying wasn't possible on the Maple Leaf for many years when it was running.

Oh I know. There’s a reason I said what I said... I’ve been through that song and dance! Haha.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

It's been some time since I've been to the Niagara Falls, NY, station, so don't know if the needed track and platform work to permit two trains in the station at a time was ever completed. An abandoned south track had been severed from the main line and it would also need a platform and pedestrian overpass to access the station.

And the GO Platform would have to be low level with any ADA requirements provided.

 

[jiml]

And the GO Platform would have to be low level with any ADA requirements provided.

Also correct, presuming current rolling stock would be used.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

If you could have coordination between between GO and Amtrak offering a choice of at least a couple of trains each way in one facility I'd certainly go for that vs the one seat ride! And would probably be faster too with proper scheduling.

If speed is my only concern I’ll fly.

I think GoTransit running to Niagara Falls is great. But there still needs to be a desire for a 1-seat ride from nyc to Toronto imho.

 

[MARC Rider]

I can’t imagine US and Canadian border crossings getting easier... but it’s a lovely dream!

The only reason US-Canadian border crossings are such a mess is that the institutional culture of our border agencies went haywire from 9/11 paranoia in the early 2000s. I think we in the US started it with the "Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative" that started requiring passports or enhanced ID for land crossings. Then I believe the Canadians just got annoyed at the perceived insult of our requiring them to have passports that they returned the favor.

I did numerous crossings of the border in the 1980s and 1990s, and the Canadians were always laid back and pleasant. Then in 2005, I crossed at Windsor with only a driver's license and got chewed out by the Canadian border guard. (He did let me through, though.) Then our family crossed at Coburn Gore in 2008, and they held us up for half an hour while I was interrogated about whether or not I had ever been arrested. They let us through in the end, though, as I, indeed, have never been arrested. Finally, in 2015 we crossed at Derby Line, and while we had no problem from the Canadian border guard, he was so brusque that I think he was taking lessons from the US CBP. My wife and I did so some foot crossings at Niagara Falls in 2010, and had no problems, though.

American border guards have always been a little brusque, but they could be nice if they wanted to be. Way back in the 80s, I crossed at Coburn Gore with my then South American girlfriend whose paperwork was, unknown to us, not 100% correct. (She had permission to stay in the US through the end of the summer, but her original visa to enter the US had long expired.) They held us until they could call the woman who was the regional immigration specialist. There was some delay, because she was up at Jackman helping process passengers on VIA's Atlantic, which ran through Maine at the time. In the end, she told them to let her enter the country. The customs guys may have made us get out of our car and wait in the customs house, and held up our trip, but they were pleasant and helpful, and certainly didn't make me feel like I was some sort of Coyote smuggling in young women for who knows what sort of purpose. On the other hand, back in 2015 when we crossed back to the US at Coburn Gore, the CBP guy was dressed all tactical like he was on a SWAT team, and nearly pointed his gun at me when I misunderstood him and opened my car door when he wanted me to stay in the car. Pretty rude treatment of a citizen who helps pay your salary.

I'm not sure that there's any actual security or trade issue or political disagreement that's so pressing that we need the level of security at the Northern border that we have. It's basically inertia that's keeping them from returning to the way things were before 9/11. That, and there's no real domestic push on either side to get the political leaders of both sides to sit down and make the whole process more rational.

 

[MisterUptempo]

They built a train Station in Moline Illinois that would go to Chicago. But that isn't happening now because a farmer is refusing to give up any of his land.

Please cite your source on this information.

In November, 2020, an IDOT rep confirmed that they were in discussions with Iowa Interstate, attempting to determine the scope of improvements necessary to run the Quad Cities service on their tracks for the portion of the route between Wyanet and Moline. I have found no information to indicate otherwise.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The only reason US-Canadian border crossings are such a mess is that the institutional culture of our border agencies went haywire from 9/11 paranoia in the early 2000s. I think we in the US started it with the "Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative" that started requiring passports or enhanced ID for land crossings. Then I believe the Canadians just got annoyed at the perceived insult of our requiring them to have passports that they returned the favor.

I did numerous crossings of the border in the 1980s and 1990s, and the Canadians were always laid back and pleasant. Then in 2005, I crossed at Windsor with only a driver's license and got chewed out by the Canadian border guard. (He did let me through, though.) Then our family crossed at Coburn Gore in 2008, and they held us up for half an hour while I was interrogated about whether or not I had ever been arrested. They let us through in the end, though, as I, indeed, have never been arrested. Finally, in 2015 we crossed at Derby Line, and while we had no problem from the Canadian border guard, he was so brusque that I think he was taking lessons from the US CBP. My wife and I did so some foot crossings at Niagara Falls in 2010, and had no problems, though.

American border guards have always been a little brusque, but they could be nice if they wanted to be. Way back in the 80s, I crossed at Coburn Gore with my then South American girlfriend whose paperwork was, unknown to us, not 100% correct. (She had permission to stay in the US through the end of the summer, but her original visa to enter the US had long expired.) They held us until they could call the woman who was the regional immigration specialist. There was some delay, because she was up at Jackman helping process passengers on VIA's Atlantic, which ran through Maine at the time. In the end, she told them to let her enter the country. The customs guys may have made us get out of our car and wait in the customs house, and held up our trip, but they were pleasant and helpful, and certainly didn't make me feel like I was some sort of Coyote smuggling in young women for who knows what sort of purpose. On the other hand, back in 2015 when we crossed back to the US at Coburn Gore, the CBP guy was dressed all tactical like he was on a SWAT team, and nearly pointed his gun at me when I misunderstood him and opened my car door when he wanted me to stay in the car. Pretty rude treatment of a citizen who helps pay your salary.

I'm not sure that there's any actual security or trade issue or political disagreement that's so pressing that we need the level of security at the Northern border that we have. It's basically inertia that's keeping them from returning to the way things were before 9/11. That, and there's no real domestic push on either side to get the political leaders of both sides to sit down and make the whole process more rational.

Yeah it’s really crazy. I was the passenger in a car and my mom was driving, the border patrol agent scolded me for not paying enough attention to her in the passenger seat. “Sir you need to look at me - I’m interviewing you as well!!” I was just looking straight ahead in a natural seated position.

And of course my favorite question when I took the Maple Leaf to connect with the Canadian “why would you want to ride a train across Canada?”

 

[Dustyroad]

Please cite your source on this information.

In November, 2020, an IDOT rep confirmed that they were in discussions with Iowa Interstate, attempting to determine the scope of improvements necessary to run the Quad Cities service on their tracks for the portion of the route between Wyanet and Moline. I have found no information to indicate otherwise.

I live on the outskirts of Moline. As far as I know the train station in Moline still is in limbo for the train. If I am wrong it would be nice not to have to drive all the way to Galesburg to get to the nearest train station.

 

[Dustyroad]

I live on the outskirts of Moline. As far as I know the train station in Moline still is in limbo for the train. If I am wrong it would be nice not to have to drive all the way to Galesburg to get to the nearest train station.

So far it is a bus stop that will take passengers to Union Station. The track is being worked on but not completed yet. Hopefully soon.

 

[railiner]

With GO planning increased service Niagara Falls ON once this thing is over.....it would make sense to terminate the Maple Leaf at the Border.

Passengers arriving on the Empire Service would clear Canadian CBSA in a joint facility in the new Amtrak Station on the US side then board a GO Train for Toronto. In the opposite direction....a couple of GO Trains a day could be extended to NF NY where passengers clear US CBP then continue on the Empire Service.

That would be a switch...
Historically, both Amtrak-VIA Rail joint trains from Toronto to either New York City or Chicago have had the Amtrak crews do the actual border crossing...Sarnia to Port Huron, or Niagara Falls, On. to Niagara Falls, NY....

 

[me_little_me]

Everyone keeps talking about Chicago to Atlanta and Florida, but lets be honest here. Who would actually use that route?

Me! Me! I have my hand raised!

Because taking the train is better than flying for under 400 miles. You boomers need to understand that that long distance rail doesn't fit modern America's travel needs and that multiple regional routes would be a much better use of resources.

Are you one of those "That's what the millennials want" Amtrak execs in disguise? We've heard that one before!

 

[Cal]

Me! Me! I have my hand raised!




Are you one of those "That's what the millennials want" Amtrak execs in disguise? We've heard that one before!

Not to mention, many of us aren’t boomers!

 

[sttom]

Because taking the train is better than flying for under 400 miles. You boomers need to understand that that long distance rail doesn't fit modern America's travel needs and that multiple regional routes would be a much better use of resources.

I'm not a boomer and I can see the value of having long distance trains. From a public service perspective, they allow a lot of people to make short trips along the length of the route. Short and Medium distance routes need to be funded by Congress, but that is a different story. A lot of places that long distance trains serve only need 2 trains per day. Having a bunch of short trains in the middle of say Nevada would be pointless. Having the Zephyr run twice per day makes much more sense. As it would on many other routes that Amtrak dropped long ago. Like the North Coast Limited, which a good chunk of Montana wants back.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Because taking the train is better than flying for under 400 miles. You boomers need to understand that that long distance rail doesn't fit modern America's travel needs and that multiple regional routes would be a much better use of resources.

Its comical how untrue the second sentence is. Seems you have a lack of understanding about how a LD network works.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

That would be a switch...
Historically, both Amtrak-VIA Rail joint trains from Toronto to either New York City or Chicago have had the Amtrak crews do the actual border crossing...Sarnia to Port Huron, or Niagara Falls, On. to Niagara Falls, NY....

Perhaps that changed in later years but the times I rode the International in the '80s it was the CN/VIA crew that did the border crossing and that matches up with old CN crew districts when they changed off with GTW in Port Huron.

 

[railiner]

Perhaps that changed in later years but the times I rode the International in the '80s it was the CN/VIA crew that did the border crossing and that matches up with old CN crew districts when they changed off with GTW in Port Huron.

Hmmm...now you’ve got me thinking...I had thought they changed at Sarnia, and the thru tickets were broken there, but I could be wrong...

 

[Seaboard92]

Yeah it’s really crazy. I was the passenger in a car and my mom was driving, the border patrol agent scolded me for not paying enough attention to her in the passenger seat. “Sir you need to look at me - I’m interviewing you as well!!” I was just looking straight ahead in a natural seated position.

And of course my favorite question when I took the Maple Leaf to connect with the Canadian “why would you want to ride a train across Canada?”

Your question is funny mine is down right hysterical. I went across the border on No. 510 the Morning Cascade from Seattle with my girlfriend. And they asked us when were last intimate. She gave me such a glare to say you better not tell the truth. That was a fun day.

 

[Seaboard92]

A lot of these routes don't really make sense on their list of "Improvements"

Charlotte-Asheville. The line from Salisbury to Asheville was recently downgraded to 25 mph by NS. So that's going to require improvement.

Raleigh (Wilson)-Wilmington a good 30 miles of track over swamp land were ripped out.

New York-Scranton again another good 30 miles of track is completely gone. Now they say they are going to rebuild that but at the speed it's moving I'll be dead first and I'm in my 20s. And even then it will be a New Jersey Transit route.

Then you have some trains that just make more sense as commuter runs.

New York-Ronkonkoma? Couldn't we just let the LIRR Run that.

New York-Allentown? Again this would make more sense as New Jersey Transit.

Philadelphia-Reading? This would make much more sense as SEPTA than anything else. In the 1980s I believe Septa went out to Reading and further out northwest as well. It just requires modifying the SEPTA Service territory which should be done anyway. Now I could see a New York-Harrisburg via Allentown, and Reading making sense.

Boston-Concord honestly that would make much more sense as a MBTA Train than an Amtrak route.

Then you have all of these odd places where they didn't connect the dots.

Louisville-Nashville seams like a very logical line that was left out.

Macon-Jacksonville also would be very logical for a train for Chicago-Florida.

Montgomery-Mobile again low hanging fruit.

Pueblo- Albuquerque. I don't see why this was left out just because it's an anchor that makes sense. When I look at successful corridors they generally have two strong anchors and a few strong intermediate stops. Albuquerque is a very strong anchor, as is Denver. Everything else are good strong intermediates.

Then there is the Atlanta mess.

NS is not going to allow any additional trains in the current station because that ties up their mainline every time the Crescent is there. The way the Atlanta railnetwork is laid out there really is no good place to put a station. But I see a potential work around.

Move the station to the site of the original Union Station and Terminal Station which is by the CNN Center now a lot of parking lots and vacant space in the area. Then reroute the Crescent back to it's original route via Montgomery and Mobile to eliminate the back up move from the Southern Railway from Charlotte. So now it's going straight thru no back up moves on congested junctions.

Then add a section of the Silver Star running New York-Washington-Richmond-Raleigh-Columbia-Augusta-Atlanta-Birmingham-Meridian-Shreveport-Dallas. Now that train picks up the Birmingham-NEC run the Crescent currently has. Plus it does a few other positive things.

-It doubles the sleeper capacity out of Atlanta to the NEC which is a hot market for the Crescent.
-It adds several new one seat rides from Atlanta/Birmingham to Shreveport, Dallas, Columbia, SC, Raleigh, Richmond that are all currently lacking.
-It allows for back up moves in Atlanta to not be needed.
-It eliminates the cancelations of the Crescent in January-February.
-It can run into the Gulf Coast corridor and provide an additional frequency on the federal dime.

It really isn't that complex.

 

[jiml]

That would be a switch...
Historically, both Amtrak-VIA Rail joint trains from Toronto to either New York City or Chicago have had the Amtrak crews do the actual border crossing...Sarnia to Port Huron, or Niagara Falls, On. to Niagara Falls, NY....

And therein is one of the problems I alluded to earlier. It is a very complicated issue.