New Amtrak Proposed Routes Map has Dropped

[toddinde]

The 2008 Hiawatha extension to Madison had an ultimate buildout of 17 daily trains CHI/MKE, with 10 of them continuing to Madison and 7 of them continuing to Green Bay.

The Eau Claire route is a bit of a mystery to me. The study for the 2nd daily for CHI/MKE/MSP did include this routing as an alternate. But that alternate has not been chosen (it will follow the existing Empire Builder route) and I don't think there is another study or plan for Eau Claire.

The 2nd daily CHI/MKE/MSP route is well on its way to running by 2024, with or without this new federal money. (it is very much being driven by Minnesota, and Wisconsin is playing along and not contributing nearly as much money) Wisconsin has the will to improve frequency on the MKE/CHI Hiawatha, but currently is being held back by northern Illinois NIMBYs. (longer passing tracks for freight trains to idle)

Unfortunately, given the current political climate in Wisconsin, I don't see how the route to Green Bay or the direct Madison access would happen.

Eau Claire is very interesting. Eau Claire is very close to getting service from Eau Claire to St Paul. This was a purely local initiative that WisDOT didn’t have much to do with from what I understand. From Eau Claire to Camp Douglas isn’t that far, the track is in good condition as far as Wyeville, and I don’t think that former North Western main is that busy. This could be viewed as low hanging fruit.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

The New Proposed Route Map has been dropped. ( as in taken down) I guess they were getting negative feedback from all directions. LOL management needs to be shown the door ASAP.

 

[frequentflyer]

The New Proposed Route Map has been dropped. I guess they were getting negative feedback from all directions. LOL management needs to be shown the door ASAP.

Why do you state this? Because Amtrak took the map down?

 

[Wolverine72]

No.
It’s hipster talk for “ the new map is out”.
As used in the music industry “ so and so’s new CD has just dropped”. I.E their new album was just released.
”Album” for all us boomers!

 

[Cal]

No.
It’s hipster talk for “ the new map is out”.
As used in the music industry “ so and so’s new CD has just dropped”. I.E their new album was just released.
”Album” for all us boomers!

Seems like they've edited to mean it's been taken down...

 

[jis]

Because we're not thinking "big"? The map is very corridor centric, and while not bad, the first word in Amtrak's original name is "National". I think the West deserves a few more former routes to achieve connectivity with the rest of the system. I'm thinking L.A. to Salt Lake City, and Portland, OR or Seattle to Denver.

That is my biggest beef with the map. This cannot be the only thing that Amtrak will do as expansion between now and 2035.

I think somehow we need to get it into Amtrak management's head that one of the primary reasons for its very existence is providing a national network. There are many other ways to handle local corridors. A national railroad is not necessary for running regional corridors, though having one certainly helps. It is the national network that cannot be managed without a national outfit like Amtrak. If they are not going to nurture and grow that then they are seriously failing in their mission and deflecting attention to other stuff to not face upto that truth.

 

[MisterUptempo]

The New Proposed Route Map has been dropped. ( as in taken down) I guess they were getting negative feedback from all directions. LOL management needs to be shown the door ASAP.

Still there, as of April 5, 2021, 5:00 PM CDT

 

[dlagrua]

That map of proposed routes that Amtrak put out mainly helps potential customers in or near the big cities. There are no new routes from Chicago South to GA or FLA, and no route proposal that extends west midway between the Empire Builder and SW Chief routes. I like the RPA map proposal far better. The Amtrak BOD is composed of unpractical deamers who should be running Metro North. Lets the states tackle the corridor routes. We need more National Routes

 

[jis]

Lets the states tackle the corridor routes. We need more National Routes

I would say national routes and multi-state regional routes. Those are the ones that are hard to handle using state run outfits, once you go beyond coverage of two states by a route, though there are a few examples of more than two that seem to work.

I fault the current map in having completely ignored national routes. And this is not simply because routes through sparsely populated areas have been ignored. Even routes through areas with considerable potential riderships have been ignored. For example all of the Eastern PIPs would be candidates, and they are mostly nowhere to be seen.

 

[me_little_me]

Which 2 would you pick?

And if it isn't one of my favorites, AM_Road will be taking a one-way trip somewhere so he'd better pick wisely!

 

[NSC1109]

It’s kind of disappointing to me not to see a direct connection from Grand Rapids to Detroit or any other expansion in the state of Michigan, other than the proposed Detroit to Toledo service. Not surprising just disappointing.

Gotta consider potential issues with CSX on that run. The Plymouth Subdivision isn't in rough shape but it also is going to take a lot of improvement.

Are we sure that every blue line or "enhanced" line will be receiving federal funding? I recall Chicago-Rockford was being fully funded by the State of Illinois. Same goes for improvements on the Illini/Saluki route, where the state pledged $100 million.

Also, it looks like the BNSF line out of Chicago would be "enhanced" only as far as Princeton. Is there a chance any capacity enhancements means we'll see more than the planned 2 round trips on the Chicago-Quad Cities run, whenever it gets started? Will Iowa be required to provide matching funds to extend the route to Iowa City, and will they whiff a second time?

Will enhancing the Michigan services improve the chance of getting South of the Lake done, which would enhance a hell of lot more than the Michigan services?

SOTL is something that is still very much on Amtrak's wish list. I remember that their five-year plan from two years ago specifically listed ROW acquisition between CP 482 and CUS to avoid the NS traffic issues but there are a number of other problems. I've frequented that line for many years, most recently last week, and the ROW is not currently wide enough in some areas to handle additional mains (likely two). The big obstacles will be the bridges in NW Indiana near 502. There are structures in place but lord knows if they're still usable.

Overall, this looks like a solid map. The only problem I have with it is why does Denver to Cheyenne get a new route but not Grand Rapids to Detroit?

Demand, host railroad issues, etc.

Not impressed. Mostly a bunch of state-supported corridor trains. There is no restoration of long-distance trains like the Desert Wind or Pioneer. No daily Cardinal or Sunset. No Crescent extension to Dallas. And would it really be that hard to connect Louisville and Nashville, or Pueblo and La Junta ? This has Gardner written all over it. Congress needs to add some "requirements" before they give Amtrak $80 billion.

I'd love to see additional LD services but I'm wondering if a "SuperRegional" approach would be better, something that could tie in a modern SlumberCoach design with multi-state routes (like DEN-DFW, CHI-DEN, etc).

 

[Palmetto]

Whatever happened to the Caprock Express idea? Just one example of a north/south route west of the Mississippi that would have really improved connectivity.

 

[railiner]

For connecting all east/west routes, this north/south route, west of the Mississippi, would have crossed them all. Whether the connections would be good or not, is another matter....
But at least they would have been possible.

https://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/twinstar195707.html

 

[jiml]

For connecting all east/west routes, this north/south route, west of the Mississippi, would have crossed them all. Whether the connections would be good or not, is another matter....
But at least they would have been possible.

https://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/twinstar195707.html

A surprisingly fast schedule too.

 

[fredmcain]

Quite frankly, I’m disappointed in Amtrak’s plan and especially in the map they came out with.

A wise man once said “make no small plans”. I’m not sure who said that but in this case it most definitely applies.

For the first time in its history, Amtrak has a strong, vocal advocate in the White House and a sympathetic Congress to boot. Why not shoot the moon? Then if they don’t get everything that they want, they might still get the better part of it.

But it just seems to me that they are starting out here at a much lower base. Then, if they don’t get everything that they want, we won’t have made too much progress over what we have today.

I did see a few good ideas. The map suggests that they plan to try and return to Phoenix proper. The “Heartland Flyer” or whatever it’s called that now dead ends in Oklahoma City is slated to be extended to the Southwest Chief Route in Kansas – another good idea.

A new train from L.A. Las Vegas is also a good idea but why not take it to Salt Lake City and Denver? Southern Californians will be able to take the train to Vegas but people from SLC, Denver and points east will not be able to.

Where is the new talked-about route across southern Montana and what about ending the so-called “temporary” suspension of Sunset Limited service from New Orleans to Florida? What about a Chicago-Florida train? I would use that one for sure if they’d offer one!

The new route to Scranton and two that are slated to go west of Chicago to Rockford and Iowa were already in the works anyway so this isn’t really any new material here.

The plan is a step in the right direction but, like I say, I’m underwhelmed and disappointed.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain,
Topeka, IN

 

[Seaboard92]

Actually the Twin Star Rocket would make a lot of sense even now. Of course I wouldn't use the original routing the whole way. I would use the original routing at least as far as Kansas City. Then I would run it over the SWC route to Topeka. Drop down to Oklahoma City and down to Fort Worth down the Heartland Flyer route. And from there on I don't know which way I would go. Either down to Houston via the original route or via UP via College Station.

It is actually a fairly strong route. But that is about as far west as a north south train really makes sense.

 

[jebr]

For connecting all east/west routes, this north/south route, west of the Mississippi, would have crossed them all. Whether the connections would be good or not, is another matter....
But at least they would have been possible.

https://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/twinstar195707.html

That would've been really useful for me if it was around for the 2019 Gathering. Instead of taking to the skies I could've taken a quick overnight train down - easy peasy!

 

[fredmcain]

For connecting all east/west routes, this north/south route, west of the Mississippi, would have crossed them all. Whether the connections would be good or not, is another matter....
But at least they would have been possible.

https://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/twinstar195707.html

WOW ! ! ! Truly amazing what we've lost since 1957 !

You know there was a short period of time in America which only lasted about 30 years or so, that if you wanted to go from one city to another, you had the choice of a bus, a train, an airplane or your own automobile.

Sadly, that didn't last very long. Now today there are more and more destinations where if you don't get there in an automobile, you can't get there at all. First the trains went, then small town air service and finally most small town and even small city Greyhound service fell by the wayside.

Americans have been robbed of their choices. The only viable option left in many cases is the auto. I think that needs to change.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al...mtraks-fast-track-request.html?outputType=amp

 

[sttom]

More North/South trains besides a Chicago/Florida train and a Twin Cities/Texas route, both of which I support. If the North Coast Limited gets restored, which given the current goings on in Washington, Montana, and Minnesota, they are just need to get North Dakota on board and Amtrak to get the equipment to run the train and it will get going. A north/south train between Butte and LA would also make sense. It would link the new route with the western side of the system. Not to mention bring rail to eastern Idaho and bring rail closer to Yellowstone, all of which are good for the country as a whole. Not to mention the whole restoring of the Pioneer that has been studied to death.

But this proposal is still crap. Biden at least says supports Amtrak to some extent and has used it and the part of Congress that matters is at worst ambivalent to passenger rail. They could get so much more than this and most of this won't get through because of the 750 mile rule and states not wanting to put up the funding to keep these routes running. Or it they do, the routes won't be that frequent. If the 750 mile rule was replaced with a dividing line at a run time of 20+ hours, that would change the discussion over what is a long distance train and should routes like the Palmetto still be a federal concern. Most of us do think train like the Palmetto should be a federal concern, but a discussion needs to be had as to how Amtrak services are classified, what is expected out of them and how they are funded. Which isn't going to happen if Amtrak doesn't get more ambitious with what they want.

The only problem I have with encouraging Amtrak's management to get creative would be them rolling the clock back to 2007 instead of coming up with a plan that involves a funding mechanism that adds service whether or not a state is cooperative in the endeavor. Asking Congress for a guaranteed, essentially operating subsidy, of $3.35 billion for the states and for more services like the Palmetto wouldn't be that big of an ask. No idea what they would call the program to keep from calling it subsidy, but my politician speak is a bit rusty on that front.

 

[ShiningTimeStL]

I think it's pretty clear that we all agree on the obvious and now long-standing bias against western long-distance trains. We all want more routes, more frequencies, better service to more communities, etc.

There are reasons why we haven't seen much of a response to this from Amtrak, Congress, major advocacy groups, or local governments. If this is something we the people decided that we want, and furthermore, that it's something worth fighting for, we have to understand that we'll have to fight like cornered velociraptors in order to get anywhere with it. Unfortunately, it seems the majority of the American people are losing more and more interest in the plight of our dying rural communities every day. "Flyover country" is fast also becoming "drive-past-country," and "move-out-of" country. If we want to save the American long-distance passenger train, we have to save the rural American small town that it relies on--and we have to act fast. Time is running out. A rather significant portion of the rural population is elderly, and once they go, there's practically nobody coming in to replace them.

PS--before anyone corrects me, yes, I'm also aware of the flight of middle class Americans from major urban centers and their outlying suburbs into the rural outskirts. That's a different situation.

 

[jruff001]

That map of proposed routes that Amtrak put out mainly helps potential customers in or near the big cities.

Yes, that is where the people (i.e., most potential customers) are.

There are no new routes from Chicago South to GA or FLA, and no route proposal that extends west midway between the Empire Builder and SW Chief routes.

Apologies if I am misunderstanding, but wouldn't that (approximately) be the California Zephyr?

 

[ShiningTimeStL]

Once more, let's be honest here. Seems like a majority of the board is pining for the North Coast Hiawatha (rightly, as are people along its route) and the Pioneer/City of Portland, along with the Desert Wind it sounds like. What was it that killed the Pioneer, again?

 

[Cal]

Once more, let's be honest here. Seems like a majority of the board is pining for the North Coast Hiawatha (rightly, as are people along its route) and the Pioneer/City of Portland, along with the Desert Wind it sounds like. What was it that killed the Pioneer, again?

I believe it was equipment shortages and possibly funding running out, not 100% sure. I'm sure someone will come with a correct answer soon!

 

[Willbridge]

I believe it was equipment shortages and possibly funding running out, not 100% sure. I'm sure someone will come with a correct answer soon!

One of the reasons I write about Berlin in my website is because it keeps me from thinking about the Pioneer, Desert Wind, Canadian/Super Continental, the Edmonton<>Calgary corridor and other atrocious actions by people far removed from the scenes of their crimes.

Attached are samples of the stuff regarding the Pioneer that has gone on or that should have been done. The negativity began in 1970-71 when no West Coast route was included in the original FRA Railpax plan. I won't get into the obvious problems created by tri-weekly operation and by horrendous schedule adherence problems on the UP as those are well-known.

Attachments:

1. A last ditch effort by someone anonymous in DC to abort the new train.
2. Tariff and reservation system blocking sales during the two-year "use it or lose it" experimental status of the train.
3. One of many times that discontinuance or severe cuts was proposed. West Coasters were used to that tactic as pioneered by the SP. The way that media work, the proposed cutbacks are widely reported and then the cut is dropped or scaled back and the story runs on page 15. My "favorite" was being on a Broadway bus passing over Portland Union Station while two in front of me discussed the "fact" that there were no more passenger trains. I looked down and could see at least one passenger train.
4&5. The Wyoming routing was planned to include the Desert Wind, making a better SLC<>DEN schedule. The Pioneer was to continue a through car service into SLC. These things did not happen, but the Wyoming mileage was charged to the Pioneer. There never was an explanation.
6. And finally, the traditional last gasp promotional brochure to provide evidence that an effort was made. Sort of poetic because that was done combined with the public timetable for the launch in 1977.

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