New Amtrak Single Leval Cars

[NE933]

Of all the blunders Amtrak has made in the past 40 years of its existence, specifying twin power car and trailer arrangements for the Acela (Ala TGV) rather than a distributed power EMU ranks up their with the greatest. EMUs make the most sense in high speed operations, especially when acceleration is an issue.

Yes but isn't the FRA to blame for this? If the Acela were an MU, the first car would have to be unoccupied. What should've been done was to have 7 or 8 cars before.

 

[Acela150]

Amtrak should think about buying EMUs for the Regional services that runs only on electrified section of NER.

Do you really think that someone will make a EMU capable of 125?? :blink: hboy: In fact I don't know if FRA would allow that. :help:

The original Metroliners were EMU's.

But look how they turned out. Not so good in the long run. I'm not saying it's been done before, I'm just saying it most likely won't be done.

 

[George Harris]

It appears that some people need a better understanding of reading plans, specifications, and laws.

1. The restroom size is virtually mandated by ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). If the crew does use it for storage, they may be looking for a job.

2. The windows: Read secton 3, titled carbody. It states:

The passenger side windows shall have a clear viewing area of at least 63 inches wide by 30 inches high, including the mullion strip.

3. Not all cars are cab cars.

4. Not in teh spec, but between Los Angeles and San Diego there is a good bit of 90 mph running done in push mode.

 

[Acela150]

Amtrak should think about buying EMUs for the Regional services that runs only on electrified section of NER.

Do you really think that someone will make a EMU capable of 125?? :blink: hboy: In fact I don't know if FRA would allow that. :help:

What!!!! Other than the French TGV, almost all high speed train sets ARE EMU's. The original Metroliners were EMU's. The Japanese Shinkansen trainsets are EMU's. When you get to very high speeds, EMU's are about the only practical trainset, as putting enough power to the rail through the driving wheels at very high speeds requires too much weight on them. (Aerodynamic resistance goes up with the square of speed, and at high speeds adhesion between wheel and rail goes down. Reuced adhesion is not really a problem in braking. Remember, the high aerodynamic resistance helps you stop. This is why ther is not need to worry about down grade run aways on a 200 plus mph railroad even on a 2 percent grade. Gravity simply cannot make the train go fast enough to go off the outside of a curve that will permit 200 mph.

Jeezzz you guys just don't know what my signature means do ya.. It says My posts are my VIEWS and OPINIONS for a reason! :angry2:

 

[Steve4031]

Amtrak should think about buying EMUs for the Regional services that runs only on electrified section of NER.

Do you really think that someone will make a EMU capable of 125?? :blink: hboy: In fact I don't know if FRA would allow that. :help:

What!!!! Other than the French TGV, almost all high speed train sets ARE EMU's. The original Metroliners were EMU's. The Japanese Shinkansen trainsets are EMU's. When you get to very high speeds, EMU's are about the only practical trainset, as putting enough power to the rail through the driving wheels at very high speeds requires too much weight on them. (Aerodynamic resistance goes up with the square of speed, and at high speeds adhesion between wheel and rail goes down. Reuced adhesion is not really a problem in braking. Remember, the high aerodynamic resistance helps you stop. This is why ther is not need to worry about down grade run aways on a 200 plus mph railroad even on a 2 percent grade. Gravity simply cannot make the train go fast enough to go off the outside of a curve that will permit 200 mph.

Jeezzz you guys just don't know what my signature means do ya.. It says My posts are my VIEWS and OPINIONS for a reason! :angry2:

I think where the misunderstanding occurred is when you questioned whether or not a builder would make a 125 MPH EMU or if the FRA allowed it. This is more a discussion of factual information than stating views. However, I think it is important that all poster remember that despite the fact we are all railfans, we may not all have the same knowledge about how things work. And that it would be better to respectfully provide accurate information than to clarify issues rather than criticize a poster for posting inaccurate information.

 

[JJJJJJ]

Only 2 4-person seating areas? Families love those. Should be at least 4 per car.

 

[George Harris]

Amtrak should think about buying EMUs for the Regional services that runs only on electrified section of NER.

Do you really think that someone will make a EMU capable of 125?? :blink: hboy: In fact I don't know if FRA would allow that. :help:

The original Metroliners were EMU's.

But look how they turned out. Not so good in the long run. I'm not saying it's been done before, I'm just saying it most likely won't be done.

Having worked with some people that were involved with the Metroliner when it was working, the "not so good in the long run" had nothing to do with the concept. There is a lot to be learned from some of the people on here, but to do it you need to put your opinions on the shelf for a while. Then they might not look quite the same when you pick them back up.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Another perspective on the new cafe car design and the lack of seating:

With their current configuration, cafe cars can effectively act as extra coach seating. When a NEC train has become overcrowded due to bad weather, system operational "issues" or at a time of peak ridership - i.e. holidays - I've been very thankful to have SOME place to sit. In a perfect world the cafe cars should never have to be used in such a manner, but from experience (its happened to me on a number of occaisions - usually when boarding at PHL) it is a heck of a lot better to ride sitting in the cafe car than it would be standing for an hour or two, or three. hboy:

 

[jis]

Why wouldn't they? MARC runs push/pull consists with a cab car on one end at 125 MPH every day.

As does Amtrak - Keystone Service trains on the NEC between New York and Philadelphia.

 

[afigg]

Another perspective on the new cafe car design and the lack of seating:

With their current configuration, cafe cars can effectively act as extra coach seating. When a NEC train has become overcrowded due to bad weather, system operational "issues" or at a time of peak ridership - i.e. holidays - I've been very thankful to have SOME place to sit. In a perfect world the cafe cars should never have to be used in such a manner, but from experience (its happened to me on a number of occaisions - usually when boarding at PHL) it is a heck of a lot better to ride sitting in the cafe car than it would be standing for an hour or two, or three. hboy:

The drawings in the Single Level Car specification document are described as conceptual drawings only as a guideline for contractors and vendors. The complete specification documents can be found at http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Pages/DocsSpecs.aspx. The Single Car spec is 550 pages, so this is not light reading.

The drawings linked to in the first post of this thread look to be Amtrak conceptual drawings. So they are probably not very far along in any detailed design process; besides any single level car order to replace the Amfleets is years away. I would hope so, because the food service car in that drawing is a terrible design and a colossal waste of space. The Amfleet I café cars with the table booths are much better than the useless stand-up and tall stool area in the Acela café cars. I almost never see anyone except maybe for crew using the area in the Acela café car while the Amfleet café car tables are busy with people and the crew using them for work space. In this day and age, people want to sit down with their laptop, iPad/tablet, electronics, and have enough table space to work. Is that hard for the designers to go with an improved layout based on the Amfleet café cars and not on some pretentious fancy impractical new café car layout? Unfortunately, the answer may be yes.

 

[Ryan]

besides any single level car order to replace the Amfleets is years away.

I recall reading (the last time these were discussed on here) that these were less about fleet replacements and more about providing a equipment spec to States that want to buy trains for state sponsored rail service. The idea is that if a common fleet of "state sponsored" equipment is used, the states save money on design in the beginning and then maintenance in the long run by having a larger base of installed equipment.

 

[jis]

Me personally I'd like to see Amtrak use someone like Alstom or Bombardier! A good quality builder!

And what exactly is the basis in fact of your opinion that Alstom is a good quality builder? The NJT Comet Vs would suggest otherwise, since they have materials and workmanship problems similar to the ones that you have been ranting about regarding Rotem

Amtrak should think about buying EMUs for the Regional services that runs only on electrified section of NER.

Do you really think that someone will make a EMU capable of 125?? :blink: hboy: In fact I don't know if FRA would allow that. :help:

Yes I do really think, nay I know for a fact that many do already make 125 mph and higher speed EMUs. Just answering your question so don't get all upset, even though the answer possible contradicts your view and fondly held belief. And in fact I do know for a fact that FRA allows cab car forward operation at 125mph with passengers in the cab car, look at Amtrak Keystone Service on the NEC as an example. So no reason they would not allow EMUs to operate at that speed. And as George has pointed out the fact that Metroliner EMUs did not work out has many reasons, but them being EMU was not one of them.

The highest speed EMUs in operation in the world today do so at 350 kph in China (Siemens Valero manufactured under license). There are numerous 300 kph EMUs in various countries. And 200+ kph (125mph) EMUs are the life blood of electrified trunk service run by the likes of Virgin in the UK (Virgin Class 390 Pendolinos by Alstom), and high speed commuter service (Hitachi Class 395 Javelins) on HS-1 in UK operating at 140mph.

Having talked to Amtrak NEC planners I also know for a fact that they do want to convert many of the regionals to push-pull as soon as they can get their hands on sufficient number of cab cars to reduce turnaround time at the ends of their runs.

Actually Amtrak could consider buying a subfleet of DEMUs that could operate on electrified and non-electrified territory. Sort of like what Virgin Trains and Bombardier are planning to do with the Class 220 Virgin Voyager sets by adding a Pantograph Car to each consist to add some more seats and provide a capability to operate using electric power in electrified territory and revert back to its core diesel power in non-electrified territory. I hasten to add though that at the present time they have no such plans.

 

[NE933]

What exactly were the issues with NJT's Comet V's? They seemed to work well when I'm on them.

 

[Ryan]

Having talked to Amtrak NEC planners I also know for a fact that they do want to convert many of the regionals to push-pull as soon as they can get their hands on sufficient number of cab cars to reduce turnaround time at the ends of their runs.

Which explains why some of the AEM-7's will be converted to cab car/cabbages (can't remember which), yes? Is it really faster to go through and turn all of the seats on a Regional than run it around the wye? Or is the plan to flip the seats to a "half facing each way" configuration?

 

[jis]

Having talked to Amtrak NEC planners I also know for a fact that they do want to convert many of the regionals to push-pull as soon as they can get their hands on sufficient number of cab cars to reduce turnaround time at the ends of their runs.

Which explains why some of the AEM-7's will be converted to cab car/cabbages (can't remember which), yes? Is it really faster to go through and turn all of the seats on a Regional than run it around the wye? Or is the plan to flip the seats to a "half facing each way" configuration?

It is certainly faster to flip all the seats than to push back to a Y or a loop and then push back into the station to receive passengers.

That is why several Acelas already are turned at platform rather than being taken to the yard.

As for which seats they will turn or not, I have no clue.

 

[jis]

What exactly were the issues with NJT's Comet V's? They seemed to work well when I'm on them.

Mainly premature rusting at welds, and perennial problems with door controls. There are some defects in materials used too, like Stainless Steel that is rusting!!!!

 

[steamtrain6868]

Amtrak should do a mock-up on the floors of Union Station and Grand Central and get customer feedback. They could also do a virtual 3 D on line and for those new 3 D TVs

 

[AlanB]

Having talked to Amtrak NEC planners I also know for a fact that they do want to convert many of the regionals to push-pull as soon as they can get their hands on sufficient number of cab cars to reduce turnaround time at the ends of their runs.

Which explains why some of the AEM-7's will be converted to cab car/cabbages (can't remember which), yes? Is it really faster to go through and turn all of the seats on a Regional than run it around the wye? Or is the plan to flip the seats to a "half facing each way" configuration?

It is certainly faster to flip all the seats than to push back to a Y or a loop and then push back into the station to receive passengers.

That is why several Acelas already are turned at platform rather than being taken to the yard.

As for which seats they will turn or not, I have no clue.

While it is probably slightly fsster to flip the seats (assuming you have enough people), than to wye the train, that's not the real reason. The bigger issue here is tying up the already overloaded interlocking plant with train movements for no reason other than to get the power back on the head end.

Amtrak trains typically come in on the east side of the station. The wye is over in the yards on the west side of the NEC approach tracks to Union Station. That means that every train movement to the wye essentially shuts down all access to the NEC twice while the train moves over all the required switches to reach the wye.

When you're trying to get a dozen trains out of the station in an hour and another dozen into the station during a rush hour hour, the last thing in the world you need is a train tying up the entire interlocking plant for 10 minutes or so.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak should do a mock-up on the floors of Union Station and Grand Central and get customer feedback. They could also do a virtual 3 D on line and for those new 3 D TVs

Why would Amtrak put something in Grand Central, a station that they no longer serve?

 

[jis]

Amtrak should do a mock-up on the floors of Union Station and Grand Central and get customer feedback. They could also do a virtual 3 D on line and for those new 3 D TVs

Why would Amtrak put something in Grand Central, a station that they no longer serve?

Besides, if they have to do a mockup they might as well do it on a real car. Afterall it is mostly the interior, so that they can take it to many locations to gather comments.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Amtrak should do a mock-up on the floors of Union Station and Grand Central and get customer feedback. They could also do a virtual 3 D on line and for those new 3 D TVs

Amtrak should make 3D floor maps for 3D TVs.

Two questions:

What do you smoke in your pipe?

Can I get a dime of it?

 

[rrdude]

India has solved Amtrak's capacity issue.....

e.

 

[Eric S]

Amtrak should do a mock-up on the floors of Union Station and Grand Central and get customer feedback. They could also do a virtual 3 D on line and for those new 3 D TVs

Union Station? Which Union Station?

And Grand Central? Why Grand Central?

 

[Steve4031]

How can they stand on top of a moving train? There must be a Ron of fatalities from these conditions.

 

[JayPea]

How can they stand on top of a moving train? There must be a Ron of fatalities from these conditions.

Especially if there are a lot of tunnels!!!! :lol: