New dining options (flex dining) effective October 1, 2019

[ehbowen]

Allow me to double-post (please...but I have no objection if the mod team combines this as an "edit to add"): I work at a thousand-room plus convention hotel. We're expected to provide certain amenities. What about the small boys, say with only a couple of dozen rooms? I submit for your consideration the Izaak Walton Inn in Essex, Montana. It's one of a very few places between Whitefish and Browning where you can purchase a sit-down meal between October and April. That's one of the reasons why BNSF still uses the former Great Northern hotel for snow crews in the winter...and I'm sure that when there's snow in Marias Pass and the crews are rocking and rolling that their restaurant does quite well. But I stopped in there with my father during the off-season for a quick visit, and I suggested to the manager that we might stay for dinner "if we can get a reservation". (The dining room was completely empty.) He said, deadpan, "I think we can arrange that," and the two of us had a very nice dinner. Yes, we paid more than we would have at Denny's or similar, and if you walk in and buy a steak at my hotel you'll probably pay more than you would at Outback, but in neither case would you feel "ripped off" unless you're an absolute penny-pinching curmudgeon (I apologize for bringing Mica into this...).

So, think about it. Did we pay our "fair share" of the chef, the waiter, the manager, the space, the utilities, upkeep on the kitchen equipment, plus the raw food when we walked into the Izaak Walton for a brief afternoon visit? No chance. Will you pay your "fair share" at my hotel if you walk in for a midnight burger following a Rockets game which runs into triple overtime? Not likely. If you're staying in either establishment you're paying through the (admittedly, high in both cases) room rates you pay, but what about those who walk in off the street? Do we or IWI turn away walk-in business because the customer is not paying the built-in subsidy? Not a chance! We love walk-in customers, and bend over backwards to make them feel welcome! Because, even though we may "lose money" on them in the eyes of some accounting standards, the costs are already baked in to our bottom lines and we simply can't cut them further without completely dropping out of the tier of the standard of service which our "profitable" customers expect. The added revenue which they do provide is a net positive to our profit and loss in both cases. We say, "Thank you for coming and please do come and see us again soon"...and we mean it. (Incidentally, do you want to take Mom out on Mother's Day without advance reservations and without a two-hour wait? Look for a full-service hotel in your vicinity. You're likely to be welcomed with open arms and with no wait to speak of at all.)

If I have to spell it out, this is exactly analogous to the role of the Amtrak coach passenger who might want to eat in a full service diner. Yes, you can charge more than he might expect to pay at Applebee's or IHOP; it would be unreasonable to demand otherwise. But the fixed cost of providing full service dining is (or should be) a given with any overnight train (and, I would argue, a long-distance daytime train covering two or three meal periods such as the old International between Chicago and Toronto). The private railroads, at least when they were being competently managed, understood this and baked a portion of the fixed cost into their ticket prices and then set the marginal cost of the meal itself at a level which optimized use of the fixed resources. You don't want the prices set so low that the staff and food storage capacity is overwhelmed; neither do you want it so high that only those who are splurging on "the trip of a lifetime" are interested. But I fear that "competence" and "management" are oxymoronic in the current Amtrak climate....

 

[crescent-zephyr]

That was my thinking as well. High end hotels provide a restaurant because they are expected to do so and it’s built in to the rate. I think the Amtrak sleeping car service is priced at a point that customers should expect a higher quality dining experience than what contemporary dining provides.

There is also a point to be made about downgrading an existing service so quickly. The dining cars on these trains have never been downgraded like this in Amtrak’s history. That has the potential to upset loyal long term passengers. (And shockingly that includes non-railfans!)

 

[ehbowen]

There is also a point to be made about downgrading an existing service so quickly. The dining cars on these trains have never been downgraded like this in Amtrak’s history. That has the potential to upset loyal long term passengers. (And shockingly that includes non-railfans!)

Weeeell...I'm old enough to remember the Stockman cuts. The kitchens in the Superliner diners were designed based upon operational experience with the ATSF Hi-Levels plus Pullman's century-plus of institutional memory. They were intended to be operated with a full crew as in the classic days. Scarcely was the paint dry, though, when Amtrak was ordered to cut food service losses (sound familiar?) "Tray meals" and other abominations were the order of the day. Fortunately, after a couple of years Graham Claytor took over and most of the cuts were restored. (Competence, management, and Claytor is NOT oxymoronic...)

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Simplified dining wasn’t a good era either. The Bob Evans breakfast scramble was at least better than the breakfast sandwich we have now.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

There is also a point to be made about downgrading an existing service so quickly. That has the potential to upset loyal long term passengers. (And shockingly that includes non-railfans!)

I ran into a lady waiting to board the sleeper on Silver Meteor 97 at TRE (sometimes I watch it come in when I have a few minutes between my two commuter trains there). She asked me if that was the track for 97 (so she obviously wasn't a dedicated railfan if she didn't already know that) and I said yes. The very next thing she said was that she had booked her ticket before the dining car changes, that she had looked at the changes and they looked terrible, that the dining car experience is one of the main reasons she takes the train, and that even though she hates flying she will fly to Florida in future instead of taking the train without the dining car.

 

[Manny T]

I think the Amtrak sleeping car service is priced at a point that customers should expect a higher quality dining experience than what contemporary dining provides.

I really do think that says it all.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I think the Amtrak sleeping car service is priced at a point that customers should expect a higher quality dining experience than what contemporary dining provides.

I really do think that says it all.

Agreed. You honestly can't get more concise and succinct than that.

 

[CAQuail]

Just as price comparison, on my last trips on the Lake Shore and Capitol (before the downgrades) on a per night basis I was paying about the same for a roomette as I paid for my last transatlantic crossing on the Queen Mary 2. And that includes the 80% single supplement that Cunard charges. So I have to second Crescent-Zephyr's comment that at the prices Amtrak charges for sleeping car space I expect more then what they are offering.

 

[MikefromCrete]

You're right, people paying thousands of dollars do deserve a better experience. Write to your congressman and tell them to change Mica's stupid "Amtrak food operations must make a profit" law. I believe Congress will be rewriting Amtrak's authorization soon. This will be more effective than whining to Amtrak's current management which seems fixated on the dining service costs.

 

[nferr]

Yup. Everybody's overlooking the Mica mandate. Food operations on their own have to break even. So all this provide service at a loss, provide food at a first class level etc., is just talk. It's very possible Amtrak may lose more in revenue overall than the dining cuts save, but that is irrelevant to the law. It must be changed. Until then you can blast Amtrak forever, but they're following the mandate given.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Does the first class food served on Acelas break even?

 

[Anderson]

Does the first class food served on Acelas break even?

It depends on how you calculate the transfers and costs. Consider that the "Accommodation Charge" for First is about $154 WAS-NYP. Even if you sock the meals in question with an average $50-60 charge and presume two drinks plus labor, you can probably charge $100 for the food and service and have $54 left over for "profit". But you could easily handle the transfers differently and get a different figure, especially depending on how you account for AGR upgrade coupons.

Of course, the truth is that the peak-hour trains almost assuredly "make money" with First on this front while off-hour trains are likely a stickier proposition (e.g. the 2100-ish departure from NYP or the 0500 from WAS) and a few may be chronic marginal "losers" that are absorbed as part of the overall service.

Now, as to sleeper passengers...the answer to this is (and always has been) buried in the accounting. It would really not be too insane for Amtrak to rejigger the accommodation charges (while not actually changing the fares) to fix this mess. For example, if Amtrak turned around and took the difference between the Star's current fares and the Meteor's current fares and applied them to the old diner? I suspect that would be a case of "Wham, bam, thank you ma'am" and the F&B loss would have mostly vanished (I think you could legitimately have hacked off $3-5m that way based on the sleeper ridership of the Meteor across the 40k or so sleeper pax as of 2017, accounting for existing transfers*).

By the same token, it wouldn't have been out of sorts for Amtrak to "fix" the Auto Train's F&B losses by simply charging an across-the-board "accommodation fee".


*As of FY17 (the last year I have properly complete data, though I'll try to integrate RPA's data as well) you had about a $90 difference in sleeper prices between the two trains. On the basis of the current changes, I expect that to open up to about $150-180. If the delta between the two rates is at the higher end (so $90), that would provide $3.6-3.7m/yr in "new" revenue. At the same time I think you would probably "get away" with rejiggering a bit more revenue per passenger into the diners flat-out with this (e.g. pax riding RVR-CHS would now actually have a diner charge assessed).

 

[cocojacoby]

Yup. Everybody's overlooking the Mica mandate. Food operations on their own have to break even. So all this provide service at a loss, provide food at a first class level etc., is just talk. It's very possible Amtrak may lose more in revenue overall than the dining cuts save, but that is irrelevant to the law. It must be changed. Until then you can blast Amtrak forever, but they're following the mandate given.

Yeah but there may be other ways to do that. For instance the 24 hour diner experiment that supposedly operated at a profit on the Sunset. Just think of how well that concept would work on the Lake Shore Limited.

 

[JCTakoma]

On the overnight trains I always find myself thinking about what Amtrak (or private rail service) might do to make service better, and my thoughts often run to cruise-line level service options. But since I’ve just had two trips (Crescent 19, 20) under the new flex meal service, here’s a comparison of just that one change, between what Amtrak offered last year to what it’s offering this year, as fact-based and opinion-free as I can make it, though I do offer a personal opinion at the end:

1. Service

BEFORE: 4 Staff, open to sleepers by reservation, open space-available to coaches, host seating at shared tables, menu orders, three-course service at table, sturdy but disposable plastic dinnerware and cups. Room service option through sleeping car attendant. Turnover typically 1 hour.

AFTER: 1 Staff, open to sleepers by reservation, closed to coaches, open seating generally without table sharing, menu orders, counter service on trays, sturdy but disposable plastic dinnerware and cups. Room service option through sleeping car attendant. Turnover typically 30 minutes.

2. Food Quality

BEFORE: Low-end diner.

AFTER: International airline coach.

3. Kitchen Capability

BEFORE: Short-order, warming oven, microwave, and cold entrees. Limited bar.

AFTER: Warming oven, microwave, and cold entrees. Limited bar.

4. Setting/Ambiance, All Meals

BEFORE: Tables set for each use with stacked/clean butcher paper, plastic flatware setups, plastic cups, condiments. Cardboard trash cans near entrance occupying wheelchair space. One table occupied by manager for bookkeeping.

AFTER: Clear tables, not always cleaned between use. Cardboard trash cans near entrance occupying wheelchair space. One table occupied by self-serve plastic flatware setups, condiments. Breakfast only, additional table occupied by self-serve food items (muffins, breakfast bars, cereals, etc). One table occupied by manager for bookkeeping.

5. Cost in Dining Car

BEFORE: Meals and soft drinks included in fare for sleepers, à la carte pricing for coaches. Limited cocktails, beer, wine at à la carte pricing for all passengers.

AFTER: Meals and soft drinks, plus one alcoholic drink per passenger per voyage, included in fare for sleepers, not available for coaches. Additional limited cocktails, beer, wine at à la carte pricing for sleepers, not available for coaches.

6. Lounge Cafe/Bar/Snack Service

BEFORE: Separate car for all passengers, some lines equipped with upper-level lounge and lower-level cafe. Service all day, access 24 hours.

AFTER: As above. Additionally, sleepers may access dining car for cafe/bar service all day, lounge 24 hours.

OPINION: Our family generally valued the service and ambiance — the experience — of the previous dining service on overnight sleeper travel. The food was ok then, maybe marginally better now, though within the family we debate this. But at the end of the day, the change in food quality doesn’t matter to us nearly as much as the change in service. Even there, it’s a mixed bag. Being able to hang out in the dining car with a drink is kind of nice, but we do miss the old service quite a bit. For travelers like us, we may switch back to first-class air rather than take the Crescent in the future for our periodic visits to family at holidays.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

If they actually retrofitted half the sleeper lounges with an actual lounge area I think a lot of the uproar would go away. Make it similar to the Parlour car. It doesn’t solve the coach dining situation but would help mitigate the sub par food quality currently being offered to sleeper passengers.
Won’t happen under Anderson he’s already been caught fibbing about V2 diner kitchen refits for quite some time now, over a year.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

If they actually retrofitted half the sleeper lounges with an actual lounge area I think a lot of the uproar would go away. Make it similar to the Parlour car. It doesn’t solve the coach dining situation but would help mitigate the sub par food quality currently being offered to sleeper passengers.
Won’t happen under Anderson he’s already been caught fibbing about V2 diner kitchen refits for quite some time now, over a year.

I think the V2 diners make an attractive lounge. Since most sleeping car passengers coming to the lounge would like a table for either board games, books, laptops, or food... keeping the tables seems like the best move.

There would be ways to make the current system better, but you would have to find employees who care. The report from the cardinal in this thread shows that there are ways to make the experience nicer, if the employees have the desire.

 

[Rail Freak]

I think the V2 diners make an attractive lounge. Since most sleeping car passengers coming to the lounge would like a table for either board games, books, laptops, or food... keeping the tables seems like the best move.

There would be ways to make the current system better, but you would have to find employees who care. The report from the cardinal in this thread shows that there are ways to make the experience nicer, if the employees have the desire.

Do the new cars have electric access at every table

 

[pennyk]

Do the new cars have electric access at every table

Every table at which I have sat has outlets (and I have made use of them while hanging out in the sleeper lounge on the Meteor)

 

[Ryan]

For instance the 24 hour diner experiment that supposedly operated at a profit on the Sunset.

Emphasis on the "supposedly". I've not seen a trustworthy source with access to actual data make that claim.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Emphasis on the "supposedly". I've not seen a trustworthy source with access to actual data make that claim.

Agreed. I’m guessing someone read “the experiment proved financially successful” or something along those lines and twisted that to mean “profitable.”

No Amtrak food service cars run at a profit do they?

 

[tommylicious]

Wow....61 pages. And I recall getting temporarily suspended from this site last year for complaining about the food changes and their impact. I'm sorry to see my concerns were well founded. The only solution at this point is to pack the Amtrak board with more sympathetic members and get a new CEO.

 

[Katibeth]

I plan to take the Capitol Limited, Silver Meteor, and Cardinal (on the return) next September. For those who have traveled those trains since the October 1, 2019 change, do the Sleeper Car Attendants try to coax you into taking your meals in the dining facities, or do they mind bringing the meals to you in your room? For this particular trip, I'd like to take my meals in my room. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[pennyk]

I plan to take the Capitol Limited, Silver Meteor, and Cardinal (on the return) next September. For those who have traveled those trains since the October 1, 2019 change, do the Sleeper Car Attendants try to coax you into taking your meals in the dining facities, or do they mind bringing the meals to you in your room? For this particular trip, I'd like to take my meals in my room. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

I have traveled on the Silver Meteor 4 times since October 1st and twice on the Capitol Limited since October 1st. In my experience, the Sleeping Car Attendants did not coax the passengers either way. I always ate in the sleeper lounge which I found very comfortable. The SCAs seemed to be quite busy taking orders, delivering the orders to the LSA and then delivering some of the meals to passengers in their rooms. I assume that the passengers who had their meals delivered tipped their SCA accordingly.
Since your trip is not until next September, the protocol may be different than it is now.

 

[Anderson]

Agreed. I’m guessing someone read “the experiment proved financially successful” or something along those lines and twisted that to mean “profitable.”

No Amtrak food service cars run at a profit do they?

So, this is complicated:
-I'm informed that the cafe on the Lynchburger was, a few years ago, producing a substantial profit even by Amtrak's accounting (due to heavy F&B sales and VA leaning on Amtrak to optimize food orders).
-On the Regionals overall, Amtrak shows a small "profit" on F&B (which is complicated by this covering everything from slam-full peak-hour trains to stupid-o'clock trains on Saturday night).
-If you look at railroad F&B losses from the 1950s, the "eastern" railroads tended to have cost recovery figures that were anywhere from 10-20% better than the "western" railroads. So my guess is that some of the packed NYC-Washington/Boston trains were also showing F&B profits (and many were showing smaller losses) due to a mix of heavy traffic and scaled commissary operations. I wouldn't be surprised if the same applied to, say, the San Diegans (which were a small part of ATSF's overall operation).
--I might expect similar notes on reduced losses to in-season Florida services (when the trains were running 18 cars long and where you had a single overnight trip) but that's a big "if", and it would have been a seasonal exception rather than an all-year thing (out-of-season the trains weren't nearly as long).

My guess, FWIW, is that the experiment was profitable...which is to say that the overall attributed loss on the operation under 24-hour service was less than it had been under normal operations.

 

[neroden]

As with anything else in the rail business, dining profits are all about scale. That is why 24 hour operation is more profitable than "we fill half the car for a couple of hours and then take a multi hour break before the next mealtime".

There were real problems with the way dining cars were being operated two years ago; it was inefficient, led to coach customers not getting meals when they wanted meals, and failed to make maximum use of the dining car.

Literally none of this was addressed by the dumb cuts. In fact, there is now lower usage and less scale. Every underlying lack of scale problem was made worse. I guarantee that Amtrak is losing more money on "contemporary dining" than they were before on full service dining, especially when you include massive lost ticket sales.

It is possible to run profitable dining cars; every "dinner train" in the country proves it. It requires VOLUME. Amtrak has made no efforts to achieve volume.

I should add that some trains just do not have the ridership to generate the volume of dining demand for a profitable diner... The Texas Eagle is an example. But the Silvers and LSL have more than enough ridership, as does the EB most months. If a dining car was operated to serve the maximum number of customers (which it has not been in my experience), it could likely be profitable on those services.