New dining options (flex dining) effective October 1, 2019

[Rasputin]

Previously he has specifically named three routes - the Empire Builder, the California Zephyr and the Coast Starlight. So we sort of know which the stellar routes are. Maybe there are additional ones yet to be named, maybe not.

It might soon be 1967-71 all over again. Time to ride the non-stellar trains while they are still with us.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

And no guarantee those trains won’t be tri-weekly or less, especially considering he keeps using the code word “experiential”. As important as what Anderson says, it’s also important what he doesn’t say. I could see him proposing the Zephyr once or twice a week ala the Canadian.

 

[jis]

There is absolutely no guarantee about anything regarding passenger rail in the US until the establishment embraces the concept across the board. They have resisted mightily for half a century believing in its obsolescence. We will know things have changed when people start losing elections because they were seen as causing something bad to happen to someone’s train service. This happens in some regions, but not yet at a national level. So LD trains remain at risk for the time being.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

There is absolutely no guarantee about anything regarding passenger rail in the US until the establishment embraces the concept across the board. They have resisted mightily for half a century believing in its obsolescence. We will know things have changed when people start losing elections because they were seen as causing something bad to happen to someone’s train service. This happens in some regions, but not yet at a national level. So LD trains remain at risk for the time being.

Amtrak was embraced at the national level with full support by the Obama administration and his first congress, which turned out to be the kiss of death in the eyes of the "loyal opposition."

 

[jis]

Presidential administration is only a part of the establishment. If the establishment had really embraced then the embrace would have continued beyond Obama, like for example the highway program.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Presidential administration are only a part of the establishment. If the establishment had really embraced then the embrace would have continued beyond Obama, like for example the highway program.

Both Obama and his first congress embraced passenger rail at the national level. I'm not sure what you expected our glacial judicial branch to do during that time span. Emboldened and undaunted the opposition simply threw passenger rail under the bus at the state and regional level until they could regain control at the national level. My own hometown amended the city charter to ensure metro rail proponents would never come knocking again. The point being that there is nothing a two party "Jekyll and Hyde" government can embrace today that cannot be stabbed in the back tomorrow. If you doubt me just ask the Kurds what they think of being embraced by our establishment.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Emboldened and undaunted the opposition simply threw passenger rail under the bus at the state and regional level could until they could regain control at the national level. My own hometown amended the city charter to ensure passenger rail proponents would never come knocking again.

It does depends on the state, though, DA. Maine and Virginia, for example, seem pretty good at not only keeping rail going, but also improving or expanding it. Also, how did your town amend the city charter? (I'm just curious so as to be prepared if I see it being tried somewhere around me.)

 

[TiBike]

Who has lost an election because of a long distance train? Maybe someone who rail fans opposed lost an election, but is there the slightest bit of data that shows a causative link? Can you even point to a causative link between a local, a mass transportation/mass voter issue particularly involving a train that cost an elected official his/her job? The only one I can think of that even tangentially involved trains was Christy shutting down that bridge, and it was a mighty slim connection at that.

That's not going to change, at least not in regards long distance trains. Anderson is right to position a few as "experiential", and make them the rail equivalent of the Queen Mary 2 – a cruise ship that does a 21st century imitation of a passenger liner. The rest need to be reconfigured to move people – lots of people – to places they need to go every day. There's no secret about how to do that -- look at Europe, Britain, China or Japan.

Rail is too valuable to waste on amusement park service.

There is absolutely no guarantee about anything regarding passenger rail in the US until the establishment embraces the concept across the board. They have resisted mightily for half a century believing in its obsolescence. We will know things have changed when people start losing elections because they were seen as causing something bad to happen to someone’s train service. This happens in some regions, but not yet at a national level. So LD trains remain at risk for the time being.

 

[tricia]

Who has lost an election because of a long distance train? Maybe someone who rail fans opposed lost an election, but is there the slightest bit of data that shows a causative link? Can you even point to a causative link between a local, a mass transportation/mass voter issue particularly involving a train that cost an elected official his/her job? The only one I can think of that even tangentially involved trains was Christy shutting down that bridge, and it was a mighty slim connection at that.

That's not going to change, at least not in regards long distance trains. Anderson is right to position a few as "experiential", and make them the rail equivalent of the Queen Mary 2 – a cruise ship that does a 21st century imitation of a passenger liner. The rest need to be reconfigured to move people – lots of people – to places they need to go every day. There's no secret about how to do that -- look at Europe, Britain, China or Japan.

Rail is too valuable to waste on amusement park service.

To the contrary, I think rail is too valuable to waste by devoting it entirely to the service of short-term private profit. There are other public goods, and a national rail network ought to serve those as well.

For example: A national rail network that enables citizens to travel throughout their entire country, and along the way meet strangers in a context of mutual appreciation of the rich variety of places far from "places they need to go every day"--that builds a kind of "we're all in this together" solidarity that's both essential to democracy and in very short supply in our current culture.

Please don't denigrate that by calling it "amusement park service."

 

[jis]

Who has lost an election because of a long distance train? Maybe someone who rail fans opposed lost an election, but is there the slightest bit of data that shows a causative link? Can you even point to a causative link between a local, a mass transportation/mass voter issue particularly involving a train that cost an elected official his/her job? The only one I can think of that even tangentially involved trains was Christy shutting down that bridge, and it was a mighty slim connection at that.

That's not going to change, at least not in regards long distance trains. Anderson is right to position a few as "experiential", and make them the rail equivalent of the Queen Mary 2 – a cruise ship that does a 21st century imitation of a passenger liner. The rest need to be reconfigured to move people – lots of people – to places they need to go every day. There's no secret about how to do that -- look at Europe, Britain, China or Japan.

Rail is too valuable to waste on amusement park service.

Where trains form a really deeply integrated part of the economy, (US being a rather bad example of such, except at a few places) entire governments have fallen due to screwup of train service. In the US a complete cockup in the highway system could conceivably lead to such a calamity. That was the point I was making regarding what it means for the broad establishment to be on board about something.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

For example: A national rail network that enables citizens to travel throughout their entire country, and along the way meet strangers in a context of mutual appreciation of the rich variety of places far from "places they need to go every day"--that builds a kind of "we're all in this together" solidarity that's both essential to democracy and in very short supply in our current culture

Absolutely right, tricia. I sometimes wonder if this ability of trains to give people the chance to talk to others of different backgrounds in a civilized way is what the real target is. From flex dining (no more sitting with strangers) to an attempt to cut up the national network, a lot of the changes seem to be intended to keep us separated from others with different views and backgrounds just as much as they are intended to cut costs.

By the way, if I wanted "experiential," I would take Via across Canada if I wanted a northern route from east to west or a cruise through the Panama Canal if I wanted a southern route. More expensive than Amtrak, but a whole lot more quality for the money. So I don't know who Anderson thinks is going to take an Amtrak train for luxury when they could do one of those other options.

 

[user 14106]

Absolutely right, tricia. I sometimes wonder if this ability of trains to give people the chance to talk to others of different backgrounds in a civilized way is what the real target is. From flex dining (no more sitting with strangers) to an attempt to cut up the national network, a lot of the changes seem to be intended to keep us separated from others with different views and backgrounds just as much as they are intended to cut costs.

By the way, if I wanted "experiential," I would take Via across Canada if I wanted a northern route from east to west or a cruise through the Panama Canal if I wanted a southern route. More expensive than Amtrak, but a whole lot more quality for the money. So I don't know who Anderson thinks is going to take an Amtrak train for luxury when they could do one of those other options.

I think the idea is, from reading the five year plan, to have a traditional dining service that's more akin to what Via provides (something better than what it is now) on a couple select trains rather than offering the current traditional dining product on a lot of trains. They would invest on making the accommodations and food service on these select trains more of a luxury/premium type service. Not saying that's what I would do, but I think that's where they are moving.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

By the way, if I wanted "experiential," I would take Via across Canada

I actually think the Coast Starlight in the Parlor Car days was the best option for the money. The Parlor Cars were more plush than the VIA Domes, just as historic and almost as good of a view (I know nothing truly compares to a short dome). VIA never offered a true wine and cheese tasting or "private" dining like the Parlor Car did.

 

[user 14106]

If Anderson got his way 100% the only trains that would likely remain undisturbed would be the three mentioned earlier plus the auto train. It would probably still be possible to get to many other places - I’m sure you’d still be able to somehow get from Chicago to NYP and WAS somehow and NYP to MIA somehow. But it may be some type of broken up system requiring transfers in some cases. And you may still have a couple overnighters as part of the new corridor arrangement somewhere they feel it’s appropriate but it would undoubtedly look different. One change I’d almost bet money on is the replacement of the crescent with a NYP - ATL daily train and ATL - NOL with something less than daily.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Rail is too valuable to waste on amusement park service.

Which trains do you think are an amusement service? Why do you think that?

 

[Bob Dylan]

If Anderson got his way 100% the only trains that would likely remain undisturbed would be the three mentioned earlier plus the auto train. It would probably still be possible to get to many other places - I’m sure you’d still be able to somehow get from Chicago to NYP and WAS somehow and NYP to MIA somehow. But it may be some type of broken up system requiring transfers in some cases. And you may still have a couple overnighters as part of the new corridor arrangement somewhere they feel it’s appropriate but it would undoubtedly look different. One change I’d almost bet money on is the replacement of the crescent with a NYP - ATL daily train and ATL - NOL with something less than daily.

Plus riding on Buses on the broken up Routes!( see the moronic Southwest Chief Plan the Flyboys tried to get off the Ground)

 

[Seaboard92]

VIA does offer a welcome reception in each activity car on board the Canadian after major stations. At that time wine, and other things are available free of charge. For sure they do it out of Toronto, Jasper, and Vancouver. I think they do it out of Winnipeg too. They also have other activities like craft brew tastings of wine. Tastings.

 

[Anderson]

I think the Builder, the Zephyr, and the Starlight all have the best scenery in the system (alongside the Cardinal and Adirondack, at least to my eyes, though I've always also had a soft spot)) for the Chief as well). I think they attract more tourist traffic than some of the other routes (particularly international tourist traffic) and I've said before that I think there's a case for Amtrak to put together a Prestige Class-esque batch of equipment (perhaps 2-4 sets) that it does run less-than-daily for those routes.

My guess is that the "investment routes" would be the three named trains plus the Auto Train (which I suspect is going to be strategically bifurcated between Coach and Sleeper) on the basis of its operating performance. One or two others could work their way in as well (the Lake Shore Limited is a solid candidate, as is the Capitol Limited; the only real issue with the Lake Shore Limited is a lack of connectivity on the eastern end when heading east, while the Meteor and Crescent have also generally been strong performers).

 

[crescent-zephyr]

VIA does offer a welcome reception in each activity car on board the Canadian after major stations. At that time wine, and other things are available free of charge. For sure they do it out of Toronto, Jasper, and Vancouver. I think they do it out of Winnipeg too. They also have other activities like craft brew tastings of wine. Tastings.

The reception was nice, but not on the level of the classic wine and cheese tastings on the starlight, it was just small glasses of champagne and some small appetizers. They did that again departing Jasper when I rode.

 

[Anderson]

VIA does offer a welcome reception in each activity car on board the Canadian after major stations. At that time wine, and other things are available free of charge. For sure they do it out of Toronto, Jasper, and Vancouver. I think they do it out of Winnipeg too. They also have other activities like craft brew tastings of wine. Tastings.

I've never run into it out of Winnipeg, but it is definitely possible that they do so during the summer (when loads are high enough that they could be loading a few cars' worth of people).

 

[jis]

When I rode the Canadian last they did do a wine and cheese reception out of Winnipeg.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I've not seen one out of Winnipeg, but Toronto and Vancouver are every Train and Jasper occasionally " In Season ",in my expierences on the Canadian.

 

[jis]

I have ridden the Canadian four times, and each time the wine/Champagne thing was done differently at different place (for the en route one) varying between Jasper, Winnipeg and Edmonton. That was in the old three day schedule days. I have never been on it on any one of its latter day extended schedules with half day delays.

BTW, in that schedule Winnipeg was in the afternoon and one could visit that neat Museum in the station during the somewhat extended stop.

 

[JRR]

I've never run into it out of Winnipeg, but it is definitely possible that they do so during the summer (when loads are high enough that they could be loading a few cars' worth of people).

It was late at night when we stopped at Winnipeg (traveling East) so no refreshments were offered as far as I know( I was asleep).

 

[pennyk]

MODERATOR NOTE: please be reminded that this topic pertains to the new dining options (flex dining) on Amtrak. Thanks for returning to and staying on topic.