New dining options (flex dining) effective October 1, 2019

[Mystic River Dragon]

I read a column by Jim Mathews in the latest Passenger Train Journal, and he seemed defiant about people not accepting flex dining and the change from traditional dining. I can't quite get where he's coming from--passenger advocate or unwitting tool of Amtrak management--and I'm not sure he knows himself. He sounded awfully defensive.

(The editor's column was labeled "Food Fight"--the editor said he had planned to address the Amtrak food issue in his column until he saw all the articles coming in and realized just about every one had something to say about the flex dining, so he let them speak for themselves. He also said that, in his 48 years of covering rail, he had never heard so much outcry about what was happening with the food.)

The articles, by the way, ranged from very negative about it to Jim's very positive about it.

 

[jis]

The real tragedy is that outside the rail advocacy and some of the frequent rider community, others don't seem to care much either way. That is why Amtrak's survey based data shows something different from what we in the advocacy community would like to see.

Unfortunately, no one has done a carefully designed sample survey, so it is hard to accept validity of any of the surveys whether it be Amtrak's or RPA's. The results simply depend on the self selected group that chose to respond. In the RPA surveys in the past things like Flower Vases seemed to occupy an inordinately high priority. Of course people also want their Filet Super Chief style, which everyone knows is not going to happen in a subsidized operation given the political climate.

Things like lower fare will always be in opposition to more expensive to provide better service. That is what some sort of a balanced scorecard kind of approach is important in managing something like this. But I have never seen anyone try to analyze the business in a well organized way that they have been willing to share.

 

[jis]

Why would RPA even mention such a side issue such as table cloths (how about flowers, were they mentioned?) which is a distraction and only provides fodder to the enemies of long distance trains?

Flowers is passe. That was fashionable to winge about several years back. Why would an issue that is mentioned over and over again in survey not be mentioned in answer to a question about what people complain about? Clearly something that is important to the customers is not just a distraction because you feel not so strongly about it. Many think it is a legitimate thing that costs almost nothing and takes something away from the overall dining experience.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

my experience, the "flex dining" and the cafe car fare (at least on the Northeast Regional) are superior to convenience store food.

The long distance trains have a rather more limited snack service than the Northeast Regional. Convenience stores where I live have better food than anything I've seen from flex dining. That being said I don't make a habit of eating cheap gas station food so I'm not sure why I'm expected to tolerate it at first class prices.

And why the apparent need to be critical of low ranking service workers just because they're fortunate enough to have a job that pay a living wage? It's so important to have fresh-cooked diner car food that we need to mistreat and underpay the service workers who make it happen?

Why do you keep trying to turn this into some sort of class warfare debate?

If Amtrak brass was hellbent on killing long distance trains, all they have to legally do is issue a discontinuance notice effective in 180 days. They fact that they haven't done so seems to me to indicate that their plans are at least somewhat less simplistic than a simple "long distance train=bad" equation.

Anderson has already said he's okay with removing some long distance routes while leaving others intact. If he received limited push back after threatening to turn parts of the Southwest Chief into a bus route I have little doubt he would have made good on his threats. If you disagree then it's Anderson you're arguing with and not us.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

The table cloth comments should never have been brought up in a hearing in front of Congress, legitimate survey or not. It plays right into Andersons narrative that long distance riders are just rail enthusiasts.

More disturbing to me was today’s RPA email at 10:00am eastern time. The two highlighted green areas sound like Amtrak PR. Touting all Amtrak’s achievements and progress in expanding corridors.

The second green highlighted area also could have written been by Amtrak management as reasons to kill/break up network trains. The gist was they aren’t feasible due to freight delays and aging equipment. While true keep in mind Anderson requested a lower subsidy for next fiscal year. Maintenance desperately needs to be done. Two 10 hour delays this week alone on the SWC due to power failures. I think RPA means well but I’ll leave it at that.

I’ll try to copy the boxes below.

RPA email 11/14/19

Did you know......?

• This year Amtrak carried over 32 million customers, a ridership increase that was seen across the Northeast Corridor and state-supported business lines.
• There is more work being done at the state level and the private sector than ever before, with great strides happening to bring next-generation passenger rail service to our nation’s three most populous states: Florida, Texas, and California.
• Rail Passengers has led conversations with Amtrak leadership about exciting growth plans for select short-distance corridors, including expanding the..

Host Railroad Delays Threaten National Network Viability

• Roughly 54% of all long-distance trains are delayed, which translates to two-thirds of the passengers on these interstate corridors arriving at their destination late.
• While the average delay for long-distance passengers is 49 minutes, it is often much longer, with one in every five long-distance trips resulting in delays of two hours or more.
• Across the entire network, delays caused by freight trains totaled nearly 1.2 million minutes of delay to Amtrak trains in FY 2018 — that’s over two years of lost time.

Passengers at the Mercy of an Aging Fleet

• Amtrak’s fleet averages nearly 33 years of age and its diesel locomotives average nearly 21 years of age.
• As of last year, the 461 Amfleet I’s ranged from 41 to 44 years old; the 145 Amfleet II’s are about 38 years old.

I read a column by Jim Mathews in the latest Passenger Train Journal, and he seemed defiant about people not accepting flex dining and the change from traditional dining. I can't quite get where he's coming from--passenger advocate or unwitting tool of Amtrak management--and I'm not sure he knows himself.

 

[jis]

Almost anything that highlights Amtrak sorry state could be viewed as an invitation to dismantle Amtrak, and yet the same thing could be about appealing for greater support for Amtrak to catch up on the backlog. It depends a lot on the state of mind of the reader perhaps.

In the hearing Amtrak was also criticized for the higher costs, lack of transparency and user unfriendliness in the space of contracted state supported operations (Amtrak gets over $200 million added to its bottom line from the state supports alone), and there was a very informative discussion about how PRIIA 2008 is partly to blame for that. The lady from California was very forthright in providing a clear example contrasting their experience with Herzog - the primary contractor for the ACE service, and Amtrak, the primary contractor for the San Joaquin service. Amtrak looks pretty miserable, and one could come to the conclusion that it should be dismantled in its entirety, or at least be banned from contracting state supported services. And yet, the same facts could be used to fix the next Authorization removing the one size fits all requirement in PRIIA Clause 209 which leads to these kinds of silliness, like California is not allowed to have any say on what maintenance should or should not be done on equipment that California owns, or see any break down of how the prices quoted by Amtrak are arrived at!

 

[MARC Rider]

The long distance trains have a rather more limited snack service than the Northeast Regional. Convenience stores where I live have better food than anything I've seen from flex dining. That being said I don't make a habit of eating cheap gas station food so I'm not sure why I'm expected to tolerate it at first class prices.

Hey, I just had lunch at a "gas station" convenience store yesterday. And bad as flex dining is, it's better than what I had yesterday. (I'm really afraid Sheetz is going downhill on the food quality side.) Oh, and by the way, there were 4 people back in the kitchen at Sheetz, as well as 2 cashiers. Not to mention the fact that the location is on a highway with thousands of cars passing by every day. Not a very good model for emulation by Amtrak, whose trains may have, if they're lucky, a couple of hundred people on board at mealtime, most of whom don't seem to be interested in dining. On my recent trip on the Cardinal, we had 12 sleeper passengers. Added to that was maybe 10-15 people in business class, and three coaches, one of which was filled up by what seemed to be a school excursion from Prince to White Sulfur Springs. That's not exactly a huge potential market for selling any kind of food.

Why do you keep trying to turn this into some sort of class warfare debate?

Hey, I'm not the one who keep bringing up the fact that Amtrak OBS are so "well paid." (With the implication that if we only treated those undeserving lazy bums the way other food service workers are treated, we could go back to the golden age of tablecloths and filet mignon included with a cheap sleeper ticket price.)

 

[MARC Rider]

Read the article the counterproductive table cloth quote came from Jim Matthews of RPA.

“I got stacks of letters in my office from folks who really don’t want to see that pass,” Mathews said. “They understand that maybe we can’t have the big, thick filet anymore, but the idea of sitting at a table with no tablecloth … that’s just not what they were looking for and certainly not what they paid for.”

Whoops, mea culpa. I need to read more carefully next time.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Regarding table cloths, flowers, etc. - nobody has a fetish for such things.... they are simple things that show that someone cares about presentation.

For what it’s worth... tablecloths for roomette tables exist, when my sca on the meteor brought me my dinner she put down a nice little table cloth on my roomette table.

 

[MARC Rider]

I don't know what the fetish is about table cloths. I dined recently at about 8 or 9 very good restaurants in DC including one that was listed in a recent New York Times article about the best new restaurants in DC. Only two of the restaurants used table cloths. The restaurant mentioned in the Times article did not.

The RPA's concern about the lack of table cloths is misguided and counterproductive. It is the quality of the food, period.

Well, the quality of the service also has some importance. At the very least, it should be fast and courteous.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Some of the best Meals I've had in my Long Life were served without a Table,let alone White Table Clothes or Fancy Table Wear.

When you're paying Big Bucks for a Stared Dining Expierence, this is part of the Total Package, but riding on a Train or Plane, such things are not really necessary, just tasty,healthy,affordable well prepared food is the thing!

 

[crescent-zephyr]

From my personal experience, my #1 complaint is the quality and variety of food followed by the over all presentation. It screams microwave dinner.

Even though the service style leaves a lot to be desired... I can be happy with all of the other changes including the lack of table service, lack of tablecloths, even lack of real silverware.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I don't know what the fetish is about table cloths. I dined recently at about 8 or 9 very good restaurants in DC including one that was listed in a recent New York Times article about the best new restaurants in DC. Only two of the restaurants used table cloths. The restaurant mentioned in the Times article did not.

The RPA's concern about the lack of table cloths is misguided and counterproductive. It is the quality of the food, period.

Care to offer the names of these restaurants? I’d love to google them and see what the interiors look like. I’m guessing that despite the table cloths they seemed a bit more classy than an Amtrak dining car.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Without trying to be cliche I think the old “Denny’s on wheels” analogy is appropriate. Reasonable food at reasonable prices. No table clothes or flowers required. For cheap (almost free) ambiance put some classy looking posters back in the empty diner poster frame holders.

 

[Palmland]

Regarding table cloths, flowers, etc. - nobody has a fetish for such things.... they are simple things that show that someone cares about presentation.

For what it’s worth... tablecloths for roomette tables exist, when my sca on the meteor brought me my dinner she put down a nice little table cloth on my roomette table.

I would agree with others that tablecloths and linen napkins are not necessary. Amtrak efforts at faux fine dining were pointless.

But would it be too much to ask to have a stack of paper table mats available for passengers to use to: give the semblance of a decent restaurant as well as some sanitary protection when your roll falls off the plastic dish so that it doesn’t hit the tabletop that probably hasn’t been cleaned in some time. They even do that at McD!

Also, if they can serve wine in a plastic cup, why not coffee? I liked the ones in the past and coffee is more enjoyable when served in them especially for the second or third cup. Or can you even get seconds with flex dining?

 

[Palmetto]

You have to remember that a representative of this organization told us that s/he was excited about the new "flexible dining" options, and that we would be, also. Really? Conclusion: food quality isn't important, at least to that spokesperson. While we're on the subject: bring back the real flowers, and the metal creamers.

 

[ehbowen]

For dinner in a moving restaurant (rail or ship), a tablecloth is appropriate to help keep plates from sliding around!

 

[MARC Rider]

Regarding table cloths, flowers, etc. - nobody has a fetish for such things.... they are simple things that show that someone cares about presentation.

For what it’s worth... tablecloths for roomette tables exist, when my sca on the meteor brought me my dinner she put down a nice little table cloth on my roomette table.

An ancient religious sage once wrote, "Don't pay attention to the bottle, but rather to the wine that is inside."
Unfortunately, in our culture, we pay too much attention to outward appearances, like "presentation" of food, and less attention to the food itself, whether it is nutritious or even tastes good.
I was perfectly happy with the place mats they had in the diner on the Texas Eagle. It didn't detract from the food in any way.
If eliminating tablecloths or fancy presentation makes the bean-counters happy, thereby preserving what food service we have, it doesn't bother me.

 

[MARC Rider]

Also, if they can serve wine in a plastic cup, why not coffee? I liked the ones in the past and coffee is more enjoyable when served in them especially for the second or third cup. Or can you even get seconds with flex dining?

Actually, if I can't get coffee in a ceramic mug, I prefer a paper cup. Those little plastic cups they used to use in the dining cars hardly held any coffee, and the coffee got cold too quickly.

In flex dining, you can get all the non-alcoholic drinks you want. No refills if you buy in the cafe car, but that's true even on the Acela.

 

[Rasputin]

Care to offer the names of these restaurants? I’d love to google them and see what the interiors look like. I’m guessing that despite the table cloths they seemed a bit more classy than an Amtrak dining car.

The ones that I recall offhand were (spelling may be off on some):

La Plaza (Eastern Market area)
Miketto
IMMMThai
Pizzeria Paradiso
St. Anselm
Cava at Union Station

They were all very good places. Cava is fast food and the one at Union Station comes with pigeons.

 

[Anderson]

Read the article the counterproductive table cloth quote came from Jim Matthews of RPA.

“I got stacks of letters in my office from folks who really don’t want to see that pass,” Mathews said. “They understand that maybe we can’t have the big, thick filet anymore, but the idea of sitting at a table with no tablecloth … that’s just not what they were looking for and certainly not what they paid for.”

I think the overarching point, and indeed one thing I got at in my trip report, is that while breakfast may be an unfixable challenge in some respects (though I wouldn't mind being able to order some bacon (or other breakfast meat) and I know there's microwavable bacon out there...or even getting a "cold meat and cheese" breakfast a la what I often end up with in Europe), lunch/dinner goes from being a modest negative to a massive negative when the presentation goes from "served at a table with a passing thought on presentation" to either self-service at a counter or a takeout bag.

A pretty good example of "Amtrak doesn't give a f***" presentation was in my trip report in the last Hotline: Something as simple as having a plastic bowl for cream and sugar packets (for my coffee) would have had a slight positive impact. Just tossing them on a paper plate almost comes off as intentionally not caring.

 

[Anderson]

Actually, if I can't get coffee in a ceramic mug, I prefer a paper cup. Those little plastic cups they used to use in the dining cars hardly held any coffee, and the coffee got cold too quickly.

In flex dining, you can get all the non-alcoholic drinks you want. No refills if you buy in the cafe car, but that's true even on the Acela.

The first issue is that on the Acela, food/drink service is available in First Class at all times, so you don't have an extended period where you can't get a drink. The hours of the ex-diner are somewhat scattershot.
The second issue is that Amtrak is clearly capable of offering free non-alcoholic beverages out of a cafe car and handling the accounting. Witness the receipts you have to sign for on a Regional.
The third issue is the big one, however: The relevant literature says you get free non-alcoholic beverages. It does not say "only from the dining car" (or lounge or whatever).

Issues one and three mean that there are decent slugs of time where the cafe is open but the diner is closed, so sleeper pax can't get a free drink (alcoholic or otherwise and one free alcoholic beverage is included) and that this is the case isn't clear from their literature. If the hours were mirrored, that would be one thing; they aren't, so it isn't.

Issues two and three come off as Amtrak either being neglectful, lazy, or intentionally deceptive in the marketing. "Complimentary beverages are available throughout your journey" with no disclaimer of "from car X", particularly when providing the benefit in question from the cafe would be as simple as copying over a set of F&B prices from the Regionals, is pretty stupid.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I’m pretty sure the sleeper lounge LSA was “available” all day, except during required breaks (like the cafe car LSA). On at least one of the 3 trains I was on for my recent trip the LSA was getting drinks for people throughout the morning up to when I detrained at lunch time.

 

[user 14106]

I watched the full congressional hearing from the other day. After saying how he appreciates that some rail fans enjoy the traditional dining and have fond memories of the old days, he stated something like that he thinks they should invest in that on a "few stellar routes." Maybe this means the cuts won't be coming to all the western trains. I guess we'll have to see.

 

[jis]

Previously he has specifically named three routes - the Empire Builder, the California Zephyr and the Coast Starlight. So we sort of know which the stellar routes are. Maybe there are additional ones yet to be named, maybe not.