New dining options (flex dining) effective October 1, 2019

[Thirdrail7]

Glassdoor.com says the average lsa salary is $23 per hour. Is that correct or incorrect?

Did Glassdoor tell you that there is a salary progression and it takes 7 to 11 years to achieve the maximum rate for most positions? Additionally, that is based upon the hourly wage. Since LARGE Swaths of the trips of OBS employees are UNPAID, what is the TRUE hourly rate for the obs service crew and do they double your unnamed convenience store based upon the hours they are on the property?

As for quality of life... that’s a whole different thing. Some may enjoy the so many days on and so many days off (which varies from train to train) schedule more than the typical 40 hour work week and sleep at home always. That’s a personal decision.

Quality of life must be considered in the compensation, just like perks are considered when people look at a job. However, since this job is apparently so easy, just being on a train is obviously perk enough!

Perhaps they should pay us to work on the train.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Forgive the rant and aside, but how does this keep happening? They raise the fares and people continue to ride. They cut the amenities and people continue to ride. They cancel trains for weeks at a time and people continue to ride. Perhaps all the hand wringing in the thread and talk of slippery slopes is irrelevant to what the majority of riders are willing to accept. As a disclaimer, I don't fly. As such, I'm not that familiar with what occurs. As such, here is my theory: The bar has been set so low, that what is occurring on the trains is normal. Heck, it may even be a step up for people that aren't accustomed to receiving "value." The company is betting on it and grooming people for the future....and it appears to be working. Whatever.

Here's my theory: Americans ride Amtrak for the same reason we do business with Ticketmaster. Namely, we have little or no choice in the matter. If we want to travel long distance by train then in the vast majority of cases Amtrak is our one and only option.

I'd like you to quantify that purported salary difference versus the quality of life and consider away time, held over time and downtime...per trip.

Yes they work away from home, are often unpaid when traveling to and from the next shift, and do not enjoy easy in-person access to friends and family while they are away. Just like millions of contractors, consultants, and salespeople...most of whom have no meaningful representation and few employment benefits. Most of the convenience store workers I've encountered were overworked for minimal pay. Your implied contention that convenience store workers somehow have it better than Amtrak OBS is honestly kind of embarrassing.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Did Glassdoor tell you that there is a salary progression and it takes 7 to 11 years to achieve the maximum rate for most positions? Additionally, that is based upon the hourly wage. Since LARGE Swaths of the trips of OBS employees are UNPAID, what is the TRUE hourly rate for the obs service crew and do they double your unnamed convenience store based upon the hours they are on the property?





Quality of life must be considered in the compensation, just like perks are considered when people look at a job. However, since this job is apparently so easy, just being on a train is obviously perk enough!

Perhaps they should pay us to work on the train.

??? I'm a bit confused here. You don't think the average LSA makes more than the average coffee shop worker? I suggested, based on a quick google on glassdoor.com as evidence, that an LSA makes double. Do you disagree? And what do they make then... 25% more?

I never said the job was easy or that riding the train is a perk of the job. I said I thought the LSA job was easy compared to most fast paced food service jobs. And that's my opinion.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Yes, they work away from home and do not enjoy easy in-person access to friends and family while they are away. Just like millions of contractors, consultants, and salespeople...most of whom have no meaningful representation and few if any dependable employment benefits. Your implied contention that convenience store workers somehow have it better than Amtrak OBS is embarrassingly out of touch.

We're not discussing contractors, consultants or salespeople. It was stated by a member of this board:

Yes and no. The LSA job is still pretty easy compared to most fast paced food service jobs in my opinion.

Personally, I don't think there is a comparison between since they are two different types of jobs, but one was made.

So, I'm not debating better or worse. I just want to know what the poster is using as criteria for the assessment of ease, plus if the total compensation is indeed double 9which I don't believe it ius,)

 

[Anderson]

Forgive the rant and aside, but how does this keep happening?

They raise the fares and people continue to ride.

They cut the amenities and people continue to ride.

They cancel trains for weeks at a time and people continue to ride.

Perhaps all the hand wringing in the thread and talk of slippery slopes is irrelevant to what the majority of riders are willing to accept.

As a disclaimer, I don't fly. As such, I'm not that familiar with what occurs.

As such, here is my theory:

The bar has been set so low, that what is occurring on the trains is normal. Heck, it may even be a step up for people that aren't accustomed to receiving "value." The company is betting on it and grooming people for the future....and it appears to be working.

Whatever.

So, a few thoughts here:
(1) Prior to the start of FY20, the only F&B cuts that had been put into place recently were:
-The Cap and LSL going to Contemptible Dining; and
-The loss of the PPC on the Starlight.

The Cap did have a significant drop in ridership (IIRC it was somewhere over 5%). The LSL had a significant drop as well, but that was confounded by the whole case of that summer of not-running-to-NYP, so putting blame at either cause's feet is tricky. Both were also complicated by the fact that the cut occurred in the middle of the fiscal year. I'm looking forward to the year-end numbers so I can do a full chart update. There appear to have been some knock-on effects on the Meteor at the same time. Steve Musen was doing back-of-envelope work on this front and I'll see if I can get him to help me out.

(2) As to the overall increase in ridership on the LD trains, it is not clear where that happened, but I have the following stuff from Steve as of August:
"Ridership for the first five months was more than 634,000 greater than the comparable period in FY2018. So far for the year, Amtrak has carried 29,828,1?? (Amtrak rounds to the nearest hundred). On the long distance trains, the Palmetto is still the biggest loser with a drop-off of 12.2% followed by the Texas Eagle at -4.9% and Capitol Ltd with -4.8% (Nothing like late trains and lousy food to drive away customers). The biggest winner was (believe it or not) the Cardinal at 10.5% followed by the Lake Shore Ltd up 6.2%, Silver Starvation which is up 5.7%, and the Crescent at 5.5%."

The Palmetto is complicated since it is basically a corridor train that runs all day. The LSL would seem to be a "dead cat bounce" from FY18 (remember, cut service into NYP). And I would note that the 1% ridership increase on the LD trains does not indicate what happened with revenue or length-of-ride. One other thing of note is that Amtrak has started selling seats on the NEC on the LD trains regularly (at least, SB), so that's probably an easy 25-50k for the Silvers, Cardinal, and Crescent.

Edit: And I suspect that the Star has seen increased ridership due to this. That would definitely explain the Crescent as well.

 

[Thirdrail7]

??? I'm a bit confused here. You don't think the average LSA makes more than the average coffee shop worker? I suggested, based on a quick google on glassdoor.com as evidence, that an LSA makes double. Do you disagree? And what do they make then... 25% more?

I never said the job was easy or that riding the train is a perk of the job. I said I thought the LSA job was easy compared to most fast paced food service jobs. And that's my opinion.

You are entitled to your opinion but I don't agree with the salary figures. I look at the totality of the compensation of the job. I regard it in the same light as I regard delivery employees and salespeople, where you see "now hiring, up to $XX.00 an hour." That may be true but it is based upon your tips and/or commissions, which causesa dramatic drop in hourly income.

It is the same thing with the OBS crews because this is what is often left out

Yes they work away from home, are often unpaid when traveling to and from the next shift, and do not enjoy easy in-person access to friends and family while they are away.

What was left out is they are unpaid DURING their trip. When you calculate downtime, away time, and held over time, the hourly wage drops dramatically from when you start duty and are released from duty.

When OBS crews are on their downtime, this is uncompensated time. They are on that train receiving benefits, but not salary. When they turn, they are on held away time which means a meal allowance.

Example
Perhaps @pennyk can correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe that the MIA crew of 92(8) will turn at NYP for the crew of 91(10). As such, they sign up at 11:20 am to depart at 11:50 am. The train is scheduled to arrive NYP at 6:50 pm on the 9th. That is 26 and 1/2 hours. However, the downtime (which differs by craft) isn't compensated. If a sleeping car attendant has two 5 slots of downtime (downtime has been increased), that is 10 hours that isn't compensated, yet you are still on the train, governed by the rules as if you were working. LSAs usually have two 2 breaks and night downtime (which varies by train) but it totals 10 hours on the Star

Assuming you arrive at NYP on time, you are now released. However, you can't go home. You are still governed by rules as if you are on duty. Technically, when you get to your hotel (or wherever they go when they disappear), they can't have a drink or take medicine even though they aren't being compensated.. Your uncompensated time is still governed by the same rules when you're working on the train.

At this point, the uncompensated time is from 720pm on the 9th to 1020am on the 10th.

91's crew signs up, leaves NYP at 1100am on the 10th and arrives in MIA on the 11th. If they are on time, they are released at 720pm.

With the same downtime on each train, you roughly received 34 hours of pay for this trip. Using your 23 dollar wage, that comes out to 782 dollars for this round trip. Not bad. However, you were on the property and subject to duty and conduct rules for almost 80 hours. You are not free to come and go as you please, drink (if that is your thing) take certain medications since you are not completely released from duty until you return to your crew base and are expected to respond if necessary. That, of course, assumes the train isn't canceled and you stuck for days in some city without compensation or you make it to your turn around point. I'm willing to bet convenience store workers can party down when they get off work and can often call for help if there is manpower available.

Calculating the total time, your true hourly wage for the trip closer to 10 dollars an hour. This is one of the reasons why there is such a high turnover rate in this department particularly since it takes 8 years or so to reach the top wage.

Again, this isn't about better or worse. I don't think these conditions (or bumping along the railroad for days at a time) scream "easy."

It's not something that I would prefer to do....and I did work at a convenience store. I also delivered food when I was in school.

 

[pennyk]

Example
Perhaps @pennyk can correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe that the MIA crew of 92(8) will turn at NYP for the crew of 91(10). As such, they sign up at 11:20 am to depart at 11:50 am. The train is scheduled to arrive NYP at 6:50 pm on the 9th. That is 26 and 1/2 hours. However, the downtime (which differs by craft) isn't compensated. If a sleeping car attendant has two 5 slots of downtime (downtime has been increased), that is 10 hours that isn't compensated, yet you are still on the train, governed by the rules as if you were working. LSAs usually have two 2 breaks and night downtime (which varies by train) but it totals 10 hours on the Star

Generally the crew of 92(8) will turn at NYP for the crew of 97(10). The crew of 98(8) will turn at NYP for the crew of 91(10). However, the SCA in 9812 and the LSA in 98 will turn on 97. The crew switch between the Star and Meteor was made 1-2 years ago. Prior to that, crews were exclusive to Star and Meteor. Generally, SCAs with more seniority chose the Meteor. Prior to the removal of the Star's diner, crews would switch (98/91; 92/97).
A friend of mine is a Silver SCA, and, up until recently, was working 92/97. As soon as she was able to switch, she did so. She is now working 98/91. 92 arrives in NYP fairly late and the down time tends to be shorter than the down time for 98/91.

 

[Chey]

Glassdoor.com says the average lsa salary is $23 per hour. Is that correct or incorrect?

If it is... that’s double what the average coffee shop employee is making.

More than double in a lot of places.

 

[jis]

I think a more relevant number is what would be something like the average monthly take home that employees get. As for what privation they choose to accept in order to make that much, that is between them and their maker. Hourly numbers don't make much sense for comparison purposes in jobs that require people to work (or not be free to do whatever they choose) beyond the hours that are billable for pay calculation. Some reasonable larger aggregate like monthly or annual makes more sense.

Thinking back I recall that when I was working, in general my billable hours were 40 per week, though in general I routinely worked 50 - 70 hours each week just to get rated in the top quartile. But the pay (and on rare occasions the bonus) was more than good, so I did not care whatever the accountants saw fit to plug in as the hourly rate for the fake number of hours they needed, to get the final number

 

[crescent-zephyr]

glassdoor lists average lsa makes $54k a year.

I’m not saying an lsa is paid too much by the way. I’m saying they have a comparatively easy job and are adequately paid for the inconveniences of all the travel.

 

[MARC Rider]

I agree that reducing the quality/quantity of the food service should result in cheaper sleeper prices - that said ...

My work and travels take me into many Convenience Stores of various brands. most of them offer breakfast and lunch items. I know these are not "1st class" offerings ... however, there are usually very few clerks in a convenience store and they handle sales, receiving, cleaning as well as keeping the hot foods hot and the cold foods cold and all of them stocked in far more quantities that any train offers.

They manage to offer food that is better than much of what I have had on the train, a wider variety of that food, and in much better condition even when "kept hot" than some of the "freshly heated" food I have had from the cafe car.

They do this and turn a profit!

If a Convenience Store can do this with less employees who are most likely paid less than Amtrak personnel - Amtrak should be able to do this also.

In my experience, the "flex dining" and the cafe car fare (at least on the Northeast Regional) are superior to convenience store food. The higher prices are simply the "captive audience" effect, same as why they sell overpriced beer and hot dogs at ballparks.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

In my experience, the "flex dining" and the cafe car fare (at least on the Northeast Regional) are superior to convenience store food. The higher prices are simply the "captive audience" effect, same as why they sell overpriced beer and hot dogs at ballparks.

I’m guessing you’ve never been to a sheetz!

 

[MARC Rider]

Glassdoor.com says the average lsa salary is $23 per hour. Is that correct or incorrect?

Where does Glassdoor get their "average salary" number from, anyway? Do they survey every Amtrak LSA, or is this a self-selected sample of people who happen to register for Glassdoor? This might not be a representative sample, and so the "average" might not really mean anything.

And why the apparent need to be critical of low ranking service workers just because they're fortunate enough to have a job that pay a living wage? It's so important to have fresh-cooked diner car food that we need to mistreat and underpay the service workers who make it happen?

 

[MARC Rider]

I’m guessing you’ve never been to a sheetz!

I have a Sheetz discount card. My daughter lived on Sheetz when she was in college, the dorm food was so bad. I am a regular patron of Sheetz when I am driving through the Sheetz service area. (They haven't made it to Baltimore yet, but they are in Carroll County.)

Sheetz does not serve "convenience store" food. They are a convenience store with a fast-food operation. The sandwiches are cooked to order by a kitchen staff. This would not scale up (or over) to train operations. You would need the same staffing as in a traditional dining car. So you're back to square one. Sheetz is not a model for Amtrak, and, indeed, I don't think they'd be interested in taking on the contract.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Where does Glassdoor get their "average salary" number from, anyway? Do they survey every Amtrak LSA, or is this a self-selected sample of people who happen to register for Glassdoor? This might not be a representative sample, and so the "average" might not really mean anything.

And why the apparent need to be critical of low ranking service workers just because they're fortunate enough to have a job that pay a living wage? It's so important to have fresh-cooked diner car food that we need to mistreat and underpay the service workers who make it happen?

I don’t know. That’s why I said “Glassdoor.com says” and not “this is a fact.” If anyone has a better source for the average salary or average hourly pay please let me know.

I wasn’t trying to be critical... and certainly I don’t think I was suggesting anyone should mistreat service workers?

 

[Qapla]

I can see both sides of the time/salary/home difference in land based workers as opposed to train based workers.

However, when I forst posted about the convenience store food - it was not meant to be taken as a shot at the Amtrak employees and the service they provide ...it was intended to be aimed at the "food".

Since I have not had the new dining options on the trains as yet - I can only go by what was reported. With that in mind, the point I was trying to make was that, since the food offered in most of the name brand convenience stores I have been in sounds to be far superior to the new meals on board the train ... why can't Amtrak adjust their food to something better and still turn a profit.

I do know that the food service in name brand convenience stores operate at profit



As a side thought - when was the last time you tipped a clerk in the convenience store?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

That was my original point too. It seems that 1 employee in the kitchen could still cook a few items on board, not just reheat frozen dinner trays.

Sure you couldn’t do steaks cooked to order, but it seems there are better options.

I do hope we will see small improvements when the pre-ordering is introduced. Perhaps then I can at least get a gluten free dessert.

 

[SarahZ]

I'd be pretty stoked if Amtrak started serving nachos and taquitos, but I'm guessing that isn't what you guys mean when you say "convenience store food".

 

[Qapla]

I'd be pretty stoked if Amtrak started serving nachos and taquitos, but I'm guessing that isn't what you guys mean when you say "convenience store food".

Sure, why not.

The convenience stores I go to have nachos, taquitos, hot dogs, pulled pork sandwiches, pizza, breakfast sandwiches, lunchables, fresh fruit, a variety of cold sandwiches and other selections.

 

[jis]

I thought Amtrak Cafes did have a Chip and Salsa pack. Has that disappeared of late?

 

[SarahZ]

I thought Amtrak Cafes did have a Chip and Salsa pack. Has that disappeared of late?

I don't think I've seen those. I usually get either the crackers and cheese platter or the pretzels with hummus.

 

[PVD]

I seem to remember them some years ago, but I don't remember which trains. Haven't seen them in quite some time....But I keep looking for cheesecake slices from the New Skete Nuns (long time ago on Empire Service)....

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I thought Amtrak Cafes did have a Chip and Salsa pack. Has that disappeared of late?

They were rolled out with the original cross country cafe concept from about 10 years ago. They were on many national menus also along with other appetizers such as chicken wings. Most of the time the dining car was “out” of the appetizers. I’m not sure if the staff didn’t want to serve them, or they stopped stocking them on certain trains. I do remember riding the lake shore limited and a table mate ordered the chicken wings.

 

[OBS]

I thought Amtrak Cafes did have a Chip and Salsa pack. Has that disappeared of late?

Gone about 5-6 years ago....

 

[nferr]

This topic is off the rails. trying to compare the LSA position on a long distance train to a convenience store worker is insane IMO.