New dining options (flex dining) effective October 1, 2019

[user 14106]

For those who are in favor of outsourcing café and dining car service I think it would be instructive to study the New York attempt at this and see what went wrong. I can't recall what year this was tried. My recollection is that there was a lot of planning done to have Subway operate the café car service on some trains but it fizzled out miserably only a couple days after it went into effect. I think it proved to be very difficult in that environment to have union and non-union employees working on the same train. Maybe someone has further details about this attempt.

Amtrak is studying/considering the possibility of outsourcing some or all of F&B through some RFPs that were done last year so I wouldn't discount the possibility yet - and they were looking at food and beverage for the entire system not just the long distance trains.

 

[crescent2]

Wow, I've been away awhile and this is what I come back to see--more death by a thousand cuts, and to my beloved Crescent, not that I'm shocked by it.

Eating in the dining car was one of the more pleasant aspects of train travel for several reasons. I hate to see that experience downgraded on trains like the Crescent. (I also hate to see part of the money spent on the new dining cars wasted, but that's history at this point. Still a shame and a very inefficient use of scarce funds.) This does indeed sound like a significant downgrade for sleeper passengers.

But it's even worse for coach passengers, who will no longer even have access to the nice new dining car, nor to the "contemporary" meals. The cafe food just doesn't cut it.

I've taken a good many sleeper trips on several LD trains, but most of my Amtrak travel is now in coach; day trips south of Atlanta to New Orleans and back. My friends and I always eat in the dining car and greatly enjoy the experience. I have a feeling that on our next trip to NOL I may be outvoted on whether to take Amtrak or fly. My friends have mostly enjoyed traveling on Amtrak but aren't as big railfans as I am, although one of them does hate to fly even on a short hop. Guess we'll see. Cafe food only, with no access to the dining car at all, may prove to the camel's straw for our little group.

While sleeper travel might perhaps be seen as "land-cruise" travel by some people (although I'd disagree about most routes), coach travel certainly isn't in that category and appears to be utilized by all economic groups. More concern should be shown for the needs of coach passengers. The eastern long distance train routes are certainly long enough that satisfactory food service is a real need. It can't be logically compared to domestic air travel because of trip duration times.

It does seem (imho) that Anderson isn't very fond of the eastern LD trains in general. Of course the political mandate about food service was issued in 2015 by Congress. One would hope the current Congress would be a little more friendly but it appears not. IIRC Amtrak's subsidy did receive an increase two or three years ago but unfortunately the 2015 congressional mandate re food service profitability still stands.

I'm not usually a pessimistic person but I'm certainly not optimistic about the ultimate fate of the eastern LD trains under the current Amtrak leadership, especially if the 2015 congressional mandate isn't changed. I applaud those who've recently written their representatives and senators. I have in the past but not recently. (Regardless, I'm whining a little!) I love the long distance trains, and I don't see these changes as positive ones for passengers, employees, or the trains' long term sustainability.

 

[OBS]

For those who are in favor of outsourcing café and dining car service I think it would be instructive to study the New York attempt at this and see what went wrong. I can't recall what year this was tried. My recollection is that there was a lot of planning done to have Subway operate the café car service on some trains but it fizzled out miserably only a couple days after it went into effect. I think it proved to be very difficult in that environment to have union and non-union employees working on the same train. Maybe someone has further details about this attempt.

I can't help but think there were a multitude of problems, including the fact they had not obtained a liquor license when it started so no liquor for sale. Also I would guess having to access and stock trains in SSYD yard without proper equipment and facilities would be a herculean task, etc. The whole idea looks great from a corporate office....the reality...not so much...

 

[user 14106]

I find it completely unacceptable that they still haven’t announced the changes. They should give sufficient notice for this. The question is are they delaying the change for some reason or are they just going to lay it on people at the last minute.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

For those who are in favor of outsourcing café and dining car service I think it would be instructive to study the New York attempt at this and see what went wrong. I can't recall what year this was tried. My recollection is that there was a lot of planning done to have Subway operate the café car service on some trains but it fizzled out miserably only a couple days after it went into effect. I think it proved to be very difficult in that environment to have union and non-union employees working on the same train. Maybe someone has further details about this attempt.

Your recollection is incorrect. There was not much planning, it was very haphazard. This plan failed for the lack of planning, and training.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Outsourcing the food service is several steps. I'm not an expert but here's some of the things that I'm aware of...
1. You need a commercial commissary to store and prep the food. This location would require the rental of the space, cost of utilities, maintenance and service for the refrigeration and ovens, cost of employees to prepare / stock the food, and insurance on the space.

2. You need a way to get the supplies from the commissary to the rail yard on a daily basis. So you need a refrigerated commercial truck, and a driver with a CDL.

3. You need to staff the train. Qualifications for this job will vary on local laws, but if you are doing any food prep or serving drinks there will likely be some certification required.

That's the basic steps for a regional train.... if you are talking long distance now....

4. You need to provide lodging for the staff at the layover city, and transportation to the lodging.

All of these steps have costs associated with them. Obviously a company that already exists will already have the commissary and the delivery drivers.... but still that is a lot of costs rolled into food service on a moving train.

 

[Rasputin]

Your recollection is incorrect. There was not much planning, it was very haphazard. This plan failed for the lack of planning, and training.

Thanks for that correction. It seems to me that the news sources at the time indicated that the Subway employees all quit after their first trip claiming intimidation by the union employees.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Thanks for that correction. It seems to me that the news sources at the time indicated that the Subway employees all quit after their first trip claiming intimidation by the union employees.

Not sure they quit, but the intimidation part was correct.

 

[JustOnce]

Outsourcing the food service is several steps. I'm not an expert but here's some of the things that I'm aware of...

That's the basic steps for a regional train.... if you are talking long distance now....

4. You need to provide lodging for the staff at the layover city, and transportation to the lodging.

All of these steps have costs associated with them. Obviously a company that already exists will already have the commissary and the delivery drivers.... but still that is a lot of costs rolled into food service on a moving train.

Also the salaries need to reflect time away from home living out of a bag and the long hours and lack of sleep. If a cafe car is open from 6 AM to 11 PM, then the attendant gets at most 5 hours of sleep. Less if there's clean up and start up.

 

[Rasputin]

Not sure they quit, but the intimidation part was correct.

According to a friend who follows these things much closer than I do, the Subway café car service lasted ONE day.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Outsourcing the food service is several steps.

You would be surprised how simple it could be. Visit your local convenience store. See all the fruit bowls, sandwich, salads available. Not made in store. Sure a good store will have a grill we’re you can order things and watch them be made. Most product come via a truck, case ready. Open tote, remove products, place on self. You don’t need a kitchen yourself. A place to stage product before and after is a good idea, but you could live life on the edge, and have Right-in-Time truck delivers to your railcar.

It’s doable, it how things gets done in 2019.

Also the salaries need to reflect time away from home living out of a bag and the long hours and lack of sleep. If a cafe car is open from 6 AM to 11 PM, then the attendant gets at most 5 hours of sleep. Less if there's clean up and start up.

Or you up-staff so your people can get 10 hours off uninterrupted. Living out of bag is not a big issue for a lot of people. Never figured out a good reason why Amtrak staffs the way they do. (Inventory is why, but it’s not a good reason.)

 

[Winecliff Station]

If all the solutions are so complicated for the "new and improved" Amtrak to handle, why don't they just give the sleeper car passengers cafe car vouchers instead of contemporary dining? Take the staff member who would be heating and distributing box meals and add them to the cafe car so two are working the counter... this means more selection than the box meals, which for vegetarian passengers is basically one option. I am actually surprised they cut meals for sleeper passengers on the Star instead of keeping the same price and giving vouchers.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

You would be surprised how simple it could be. Visit your local convenience store. See all the fruit bowls, sandwich, salads available. Not made in store. Sure a good store will have a grill we’re you can order things and watch them be made. Most product come via a truck, case ready. Open tote, remove products, place on self. You don’t need a kitchen yourself. A place to stage product before and after is a good idea, but you could live life on the edge, and have Right-in-Time truck delivers to your railcar.

It’s doable, it how things gets done in 2019.

Yes... they are made in a commercial commissary / prep kitchen. And they are delivered to the convenience store by a refrigerated commercial truck driven by a CDL driver. And the convenience store is staffed by employees that are paid money... if the convenience store does food prep (like a Sheetz) than they also have to follow local health laws which usually include someone on duty be certified for food prep / safe handling.

So yeah... everything is exactly the same except for the fact that a convenience store doesn't get daily deliveries at an ultra specific time.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Ultra specific deliver time is what I do for a living. (Not ever load, but all loads need to be someplace, at a certain, or range of time.)

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Ultra specific deliver time is what I do for a living. (Not ever load, but all loads need to be someplace, at a certain, or range of time.)

I’m not really sure how Amtrak trains get loaded... does the delivery truck go right to the train from the main commissary, or does each yard have a separate commissary and then a local truck delivers to the train?

 

[Maverickstation]

Here is a good read about the Southwest Chief and it's route being safe for now.

I am posting it here as they talk about the importance of the dining car, AND the fact that the Silver Meteor and Crescent loose their Diner
effective October 1.

https://www.latimes.com/travel/la-tr-travel-southwest-chief-train-2019-story.html

 

[Dakota 400]

Thank you for posting this Maverickstation. It's an interesting article.

 

[me_little_me]

If all the solutions are so complicated for the "new and improved" Amtrak to handle, why don't they just give the sleeper car passengers cafe car vouchers instead of contemporary dining? Take the staff member who would be heating and distributing box meals and add them to the cafe car so two are working the counter... this means more selection than the box meals, which for vegetarian passengers is basically one option. I am actually surprised they cut meals for sleeper passengers on the Star instead of keeping the same price and giving vouchers.

Yuck!

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Yuck!

Well the question now is are these "contemporary meals" worth the added expense sleeper passengers pay for them?

February 2020, Philly to Orlando, 1 person

Cheapest Roomette: Star: $340, Meteor: $415

You're paying $65 for a dinner and a breakfast. I don't think the "Amtrak steak" and omelets were worth $65, can anyone with a straight face tell me these new meals are worth $65? Is the food better than what's in the cafe car? Probably. But is it worth the extra expense you pay? You tell me.

 

[ehbowen]

But if the train is late, you might get a free lunch!

 

[Palmetto]

Here is a good read about the Southwest Chief and it's route being safe for now.

I am posting it here as they talk about the importance of the dining car, AND the fact that the Silver Meteor and Crescent loose their Diner
effective October 1.

https://www.latimes.com/travel/la-tr-travel-southwest-chief-train-2019-story.html

Those trains do not lose their diner. They lose the current sit-down restaurant style service model in the diner. Which leads me to observe: the title of this topic is inaccurate.

 

[jis]

Well, the Diner in any form is definitely getting cut for the Coach passengers in the Contemporary stuff on the Eastern trains.

 

[Rasputin]

Those trains do not lose their diner. They lose the current sit-down restaurant style service model in the diner. Which leads me to observe: the title of this topic is inaccurate.

I think it is more correct to say that the present dining cars are being converted to table cars (maybe even picnic table cars but hopefully without ants) where packaged food can been eaten. They are even being disguised as sleeping car lounge cars even though they are not well suited for lounge cars in the usual sense (i.e. the Pacific Parlour cars).

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

The LA Times article is spot on. The photos and story could have summed up my ride last week from GBB to Fullerton.

The SWC is a perfect example of what Amtrak was founded for. Well patronized from all walks of life. The most efficient schedule of any long distance train providing benefits to small communities along the way. The LA based crews are some of the best on Amtrak.

The dining issue is just a shame. We’re putting the network in danger just to break labor. I met at least five people of various ages who connected from the Capital or Lake shore last week. To a person they said the food was not acceptable and two people said “inedible”. They all said if the SWC gets the “take away” (their words) dining they won’t be traveling on Amtrak anymore. They had very strong feelings and were not rail enthusiasts like the majority of us.

I get the Mica law and concern for being more efficient but Amtrak management is just using it as a crutch for their agenda of dismantling Amtrak. If they truly wanted to find a workable solution they would have tried Acela first class meals on the Capital and Lake Shore. Airline catering on both sides and the routes are not much longer than ultra long haul flights.

 

[pennyk]

I came across a survey posted by several individuals on FaceBook regarding Amtrak food service. I am not sure who is behind the survey. The survey that I completed was posted by someone I know and who works for Amtrak - so I trust it.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...rEABvILbFzsIv9b8g/viewform?platform=hootsuite