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It is possible to run profitable dining cars; every "dinner train" in the country proves it. It requires VOLUME. Amtrak has made no efforts to achieve volume.

I should add that some trains just do not have the ridership to generate the volume of dining demand for a profitable diner... The Texas Eagle is an example. But the Silvers and LSL have more than enough ridership, as does the EB most months. If a dining car was operated to serve the maximum number of customers (which it has not been in my experience), it could likely be profitable on those services.
(1) "Dinner trains" don't have to carry a full crew all the way from end to end or deal with multiple commissaries.
(2) I doubt the diners could be profitable at full capacity (at mealtimes; you probably won't fill the diner at 1530 no matter what you're trying), at least as-is. If you were also spreading commissary expenses over an order of magnitude more trains that would be one thing, but if the diners weren't printing money in the 1950s and 1960s on 18-car trains I can't see them making money with the current equipment mix.
 
(1) "Dinner trains" don't have to carry a full crew all the way from end to end or deal with multiple commissaries.
(2) I doubt the diners could be profitable at full capacity (at mealtimes; you probably won't fill the diner at 1530 no matter what you're trying), at least as-is. If you were also spreading commissary expenses over an order of magnitude more trains that would be one thing, but if the diners weren't printing money in the 1950s and 1960s on 18-car trains I can't see them making money with the current equipment mix.
I frequently don't get hungry until around that 1500/1530 time, so often have breakfast around 7 am, lunch at 3:30 pm, and then a snack around 9 pm. Does anyone else have that kind hungry time clock or similar?
 
It is possible to run profitable dining cars; every "dinner train" in the country proves it. But the Silvers and LSL have more than enough ridership, as does the EB most months.

On the Silver Meteor (and the Star when it had a dining car), I routinely met British and European travelers who had flown into New York and were taking the overnight train to Florida specifically to experience the dining car. Some of them said they didn't get the chance at home anymore because all their trains were so fast now that there were no overnight ones, and they missed the experience, so added it to their American vacation.

I frequently don't get hungry until around that 1500/1530 time, so often have breakfast around 7 am, lunch at 3:30 pm, and then a snack around 9 pm. Does anyone else have that kind hungry time clock or similar?

I'm so glad I'm not the only one with a schedule like that! I have breakfast around 7:00 and lunch/dinner around 3:00. No snack later, though (oh, oops, forgot those little pieces of dark chocolate:).) So I always went to the earliest seating in the dining car.
 
It is possible to run profitable dining cars; every "dinner train" in the country proves it. It requires VOLUME. Amtrak has made no efforts to achieve volume.

How can dinner trains make money because of volume when they only operate one seating per train? Dinner train staff is part time low-wage employees vs. full time with benefits higher wage employees that have various transportation (transfers to hotels, hotels, etc.) paid for by the company. Dinner trains can just run to a local store the day of the train and load up supplies... it's a totally different operation that can't even remotely compare.
 
How can dinner trains make money because of volume when they only operate one seating per train? Dinner train staff is part time low-wage employees vs. full time with benefits higher wage employees that have various transportation (transfers to hotels, hotels, etc.) paid for by the company. Dinner trains can just run to a local store the day of the train and load up supplies... it's a totally different operation that can't even remotely compare.
When I read the original post of "dinner train" I almost died laughing. :p:p But seriously, based on past gripes about the prices that Amtrak charges in the dining car, I have a feeling there would be quite a bit of heart attacks if some saw the cost for a "dinner train." The Nappa Valley Wine Train would set one back a pretty penny.
 
On our recent trip from Greenville, SC to NYP on the Crescent, here are pictures of what was offered for breakfast:

IMG_6787.JPGIMG_6786.JPG

The Sleeping Car attendant advised that there were no breakfast sandwiches since they were all eaten by the New Orleans passengers the previous day. Note there was one banana ( we were early risers so there were none after my wife took it).

This is a far cry from the full breakfast which was being served when I bought the ticket and Amtrak received the “revenue” for the meal, whatever they chose to allocate for it.

When I get my report on our trip, I’ll report on the experience but I’ll just say now that the pictures speak volumes!
 
I think the V2 diners make an attractive lounge. Since most sleeping car passengers coming to the lounge would like a table for either board games, books, laptops, or food... keeping the tables seems like the best move.

I disagree. They make an attractive cafe car but not a lounge. Some comfortable swivel seats would help but nothing will bring back the service or make the food taste better.

More likely, Amtrak will provide microwaving instructions and dump the last remaining person then have the SCAs clean the car once a day as part of their job. That last bit will mean announcements to sleeper passengers that they'd better clean the car themselves and, when it's not done, the car will be locked - just like they do with the bathrooms in coach. That of course, assumes the SCAs aren't removed and you find your linen (and a disposable toilet brush) in the room when boarding along with the demand that you must clean the room prior to disembarking. :(
 
On our recent trip from Greenville, SC to NYP on the Crescent, here are pictures of what was offered for breakfast:


The Sleeping Car attendant advised that there were no breakfast sandwiches since they were all eaten by the New Orleans passengers the previous day. Note there was one banana ( we were early risers so there were none after my wife took it).

This is a far cry from the full breakfast which was being served when I bought the ticket and Amtrak received the “revenue” for the meal, whatever they chose to allocate for it.

When I get my report on our trip, I’ll report on the experience but I’ll just say now that the pictures speak volumes!

Stop whining. We didn't even get Kind bars and every banana was rotten on our Crescent trip. As to the microwaved rubber sandwiches, they were worse than worthless.
 
Hopefully everyone is complaining to Amtrak about food runouts....there is no excuse for it....

Yes please complain to customer relations. At the very minimum they need to provide adequate stock of the food items and it seems they need much improvement in that department. Do they have the new point of sale on the Crescent yet? I saw it recently on Auto Train. The point of sale system is supposed to help with stocking over time. Once the POS is in place, they are supposed to be entering everything distributed (free or not free) into the point of sale to help make better statistics of what is consumed and assist with inventory. Over time they can compare this to the ridership data and be able to better predict how much food is needed. The real key thing will be the eventual online preselection of meals before the trip, and I hope they offer that option to the traditional diners on the western trains and auto train as well as I think that could be an improvement across the board.
 
Seeing the lack of anything substantive at breakfast, and the nothing in the current lunch/dinner menu I'd choose to eat, I'll continue my buy food before boarding and/or in the cafe car.

And to ensure I get my 'value' of the included meals in the sleeper fare, I'll likely start choosing my food then immediately dumping it directly into the trash in clear view of the hapless attendant. Maybe that will send a message to Anderson. My biggest gripe was, and still is, switching from edible to unhealthy food for this diabetic, there was no reduction in sleeper ticket prices. Given that the Great Annual Florida Migration is about to begin, how many of THOSE passengers will ever come back once they realize the poor quality of the food?
 
You may be better off bitching to Customer Service if you wish Anderson to know about it. Throwing food away just out of spite is stupid IMHO, no matter how distasteful the food is to you. You can rest assured that Anderson will only see things that are actually recorded in some metric, and I am sure some sap throwing food into garbage is not one of those things. :p
 
Seeing the lack of anything substantive at breakfast, and the nothing in the current lunch/dinner menu I'd choose to eat, I'll continue my buy food before boarding and/or in the cafe car.

I've got a big problem with "contemporary dining" but I was able to find a few things to eat for breakfast. I had 2 dishes of Cheerios, yogurt, fruit, and a kind bar. I'm not sure what you're getting from the cafe car that is any better. Now would I rather have scrambled eggs and potatoes? Yes of course.
 
And to ensure I get my 'value' of the included meals in the sleeper fare, I'll likely start choosing my food then immediately dumping it directly into the trash in clear view of the hapless attendant.

I agree with Jis that dumping food in the trash is not a good plan. I also agree that phoning or writing customer relations is a good idea with coherent complaints and avoiding rants. I have food allergies and am unable to eat any of the flex dining lunches or dinners. I have been communicating with customer relations for over a month and 2 (of the 3 encountered) agents have been pleasant, helpful, proactive and accommodating.
 
Hopefully if enough Amtrak riders, not just AUers and AGR Members, complain about the Alpo Meals being served to Sleeping Car passengers, the Powers that be will at least consider providing Higher Quality and Healthier choices with Pre-Selection available when Booking!??? NOT!!!
 
Acela first class meals nothing less (but hopefully more). The logistics aren’t overwhelming if management wanted dining to be a success.

Another idea, how about bringing back the fresh baked bedtime cookies in the V2 sleeper lounge from 10 years ago? Cheap and easy. Airlines bake cookies onboard, hotel lobbies do as well.
It would be a nice touch and the LSA could easily do it with the pre made dough that’s readily available. Put them on a table in the lounge for passengers to enjoy between 7-9pm.

That one item would probably be the freshest item onboard sadly.
 
(1) "Dinner trains" don't have to carry a full crew all the way from end to end or deal with multiple commissaries.
(2) I doubt the diners could be profitable at full capacity (at mealtimes; you probably won't fill the diner at 1530 no matter what you're trying), at least as-is. If you were also spreading commissary expenses over an order of magnitude more trains that would be one thing, but if the diners weren't printing money in the 1950s and 1960s on 18-car trains I can't see them making money with the current equipment mix.

One of the things I noticed is that the dining cars on Amtrak have never, in my experience, really operated at full capacity.

Could they make a profit at full capacity? Who knows?

In the 1950s and 1960s I'm honestly not sure they were operating at full capacity either. Those 18-car trains were not typically sold out, and I'm not at all sure that everyone on the train was eating in the dining car. Worse, this was the period when railroads were losing business to airlines and cars; so they had to keep prices low.

In the 1930s, with wartime restrictions on car fuel purchase, I think they were operating at full capacity; but I've never looked at the railroad financial statements from that period. In the 1910s, I'm pretty sure they were also operating at full capacity.
 
How can dinner trains make money because of volume when they only operate one seating per train? Dinner train staff is part time low-wage employees vs. full time with benefits higher wage employees that have various transportation (transfers to hotels, hotels, etc.) paid for by the company. Dinner trains can just run to a local store the day of the train and load up supplies... it's a totally different operation that can't even remotely compare.

Actually, it compares pretty much perfectly.

Having read a few books on the history of dining cars on trains, *private railroads often just ran to a store the day of the train and loaded up on supplies*. They even did so mid-route, with chefs arranging to pick up fresh supplies at intermediate stations.

I don't think the difference in employee pay is fundamental. If what it takes to run a profitable dining car is to have non-unionized labor, fine, that works for me. I don't believe this, though; the difference in labor costs isn't enough to make sense.

Dinner trains may have one seating, but they have one kitchen car (possibly with pre-made food) serving *four or five table cars full of passengers*. That's your economy of scale right there. They may have one attendant delivering food per car... or they may have fewer! Again, economies of scale. I don't know of any which succeed with only a single table car, or even with two table cars come to think of it.

It is quite possible that a single car which is half kitchen and half tables is just too small to make a profit on one seating. It may be necessary to fill *two* (or even three!) cars full of tables per seating, in order to make a profit. And it may be necessary to have pretty high prices. And a pretty small selection of options. That is all stuff I'd believe, because I know something about the economics of restaurants.

It's quite possible that the scale necessary to have profitable dining cars is hard to come by. It may really require more than one table car. (That said, I'm pretty sure the Auto Train was at least close.)
 
Seeing the lack of anything substantive at breakfast, and the nothing in the current lunch/dinner menu I'd choose to eat, I'll continue my buy food before boarding and/or in the cafe car.

And to ensure I get my 'value' of the included meals in the sleeper fare, I'll likely start choosing my food then immediately dumping it directly into the trash in clear view of the hapless attendant. Maybe that will send a message to Anderson. My biggest gripe was, and still is, switching from edible to unhealthy food for this diabetic, there was no reduction in sleeper ticket prices. Given that the Great Annual Florida Migration is about to begin, how many of THOSE passengers will ever come back once they realize the poor quality of the food?

You obviously didn't have parents that walked to school up the hill both ways with no shoes. :p Cause if you did, you'd NEVER be throwing away good food out of spite. :rolleyes::rolleyes: So far in this post, I think we've had like 3-4 people who mentioned throwing away food out of site. I guess it just never enters their mind to give it to someone else aboard the train who doesn't have the luxury of throwing away food out of site.
 
Actually, it compares pretty much perfectly.

Having read a few books on the history of dining cars on trains, *private railroads often just ran to a store the day of the train and loaded up on supplies*. They even did so mid-route, with chefs arranging to pick up fresh supplies at intermediate stations.

I don't think the difference in employee pay is fundamental. If what it takes to run a profitable dining car is to have non-unionized labor, fine, that works for me. I don't believe this, though; the difference in labor costs isn't enough to make sense.

Dinner trains may have one seating, but they have one kitchen car (possibly with pre-made food) serving *four or five table cars full of passengers*. That's your economy of scale right there. They may have one attendant delivering food per car... or they may have fewer! Again, economies of scale. I don't know of any which succeed with only a single table car, or even with two table cars come to think of it.

It is quite possible that a single car which is half kitchen and half tables is just too small to make a profit on one seating. It may be necessary to fill *two* (or even three!) cars full of tables per seating, in order to make a profit. And it may be necessary to have pretty high prices. And a pretty small selection of options. That is all stuff I'd believe, because I know something about the economics of restaurants.

It's quite possible that the scale necessary to have profitable dining cars is hard to come by. It may really require more than one table car. (That said, I'm pretty sure the Auto Train was at least close.)

No. Private railroads had commissaries, just like Amtrak did.

If you don’t understand the difference in pay you have no business knowledge. Most businesses are trying to only have part time employees to avoid the expense of providing benefits. And then there is the fact that Amtrak employees make 25-50% more, hourly than a dinner train employee and that they are provided with a hotel room and transportation at the end of the line. I’m not sure how anyone could say those costs wouldn’t make a difference.

The dinner train I worked for had a kitchen in each diner, with 3 diners. Each diner had 3 people in the kitchen, and 4 servers plus there was a head steward. How did the dinner train you worked for operate? ;)

And how on earth was the auto train close? All the meals were free!
 
You have a point about the way the Auto Train did meal accounting...

Interestingly I've never seen a dinner train which operated the way yours did. Seems pretty inefficient, I admit. Most of the ones I've seen leveraged a single kitchen car over multiple table cars!

How high were your prices? You had *14* food service employees and only three half-cars worth of tables! For one seating? I guess if your dining cars seated as many as Amtrak Viewliner IIs, that's about 132 customers if you sell out, so about one employee for every 10 customers.

A small high-end hole-in-the-wall restaurant might have about 40 seats and seat people three times, so that's about the right minimum size; they'd also have 4 or 5 waiters; but they'd have 1 kitchen with 3-4 people in it, not three kitchens. A restaurant with a bigger kitchen staff would have more seats (or do a lot of takeout).

And I'm not kidding about the private railroads picking up ingredients en route. They did that. Yes, they also had central commissaries *to save money* -- it's cheaper than going to the store. :eyeroll: That's a financial situation where the dinner trains are at a disadvantage, so the comparison is valid.

It certainly costs more to provide service on board than it does to provide it in a fixed restaurant. This means that either (a) the service has to be more upscale and have higher margins per item, or (b) it has to be higher volume, with more economies of scale.

I don't believe that the pay scale difference between Amtrak and a private operation is significant, meaningful or relevant, because as I said, if what you need for profitable dining cars is just cheaper labor, fine -- this seems extremely unlikely, but if it's the case, we can just start the Pullman Company and run profitable dining cars. I believe the problems are more fundamental issues of having sufficient volume of demand and providing food of a quality such that high margins can be charged.

I *know* the Texas Eagle never has enough demand to fill its dining car. There's just no way to come close to breaking even under those conditions.

The Empire Builder and Lake Shore Limited have repeatedly been in the position of turning away customers due to having too much demand. *That* is where a profitable dining car may be possible... if you can figure out how to serve everyone without hiring a lot more employees.
 
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You have a point about the way the Auto Train did meal accounting...

Interestingly I've never seen a dinner train which operated the way yours did. Seems pretty inefficient, I admit. Most of the ones I've seen leveraged a single kitchen car over multiple table cars, and NONE of them had as many servers as you had! How high were your prices? You had *14* employees and only three half-cars worth of tables!

(Also, seriously, 25% - 50% wage difference? This is not the difference between profit and loss, not in a restaurant with high prices. The hotel rooms make a bit of a difference, but not that much. Number of employees is a much bigger issue.)

And I'm not kidding about the private railroads picking up ingredients en route. They did that. Yes, they also had central commissaries *to save money* -- it's cheaper than going to the store. :eyeroll:

Even Strasburg Railroad has 3 employees in their dining car for lunch. And they are just serving pre-made food that’s loaded up from the snack bar at the station. I’m not sure what dinner train operation you rode that has 1 attendant for a full 48 seat diner.

And 25-50% wage increase in addition to full time benefits. It’s the benefits that change everything.
 
Benefits, *specifically* health insurance benefits, have messed up the economics of almost every industry in the country. They more-than-double the costs from the actual pay. So point taken.

But you seem to be making the case that we literally could start a Pullman Company and run profitable dining cars, just by not providing benefits. Wanna do it?

Dinner trains do have another, subtler advantage over Amtrak: if they don't sell enough tickets they can cancel the run entirely. Most on-the-ground restaurants have the same advantage.

Most restaurants actually make the majority their money on a couple of evenings per week (Friday and Saturday, typically), and if they're open the rest of the week, this is efforts to defray fixed costs which exist whether the restaurant is open or not. (But many restaurants have one or more days per week when they don't open, often Mondays.) Amtrak suffers by having to run the same dining car on Thanksgiving Day, when ridership is nearly 0, as they do on the day before, when all the trains are packed.

Come to think of it, this is another advantage the original Pullman Company had. When they first started with their one dining car, the Delmonico, they could run it on the days when they expected high traffic, and not run it on the days when they didn't. Hmmm. And of course they were profitable -- at first.

This has been an interesting discussion which is getting me deeper into the weeds of dining car finance...

(... and everything I learn or see is pointing to pre-ordering meals weeks before as being the core change which would allow for matching service to demand.)
 
Back maybe 20 years ago or so, when Amtrak diners routinely had 3 in the kitchen and 4 on the floor, I watched them turn the tables 3, sometimes 4 times at dinner. How many times they can turn the tables is 90% dependent on the number of employees doing the work. These days, in the Superliner diners out west except for #1/2 & 21/22, I think it's 2 downstairs and 2 or 3 upstairs serving on both sides. During 2019, I've had 7-8 dinners in full-service Superliner diners and I think that, at best, they turned 1/2 the tables once. Yes, they had multiple seating times, but that was only to spread out the flow of meals and even the workload for the minimal staff they had. And this year on the Meteor and Crescent prior to 10/1? I'd say they only turned the tables once, and perhaps a couple tables twice, mostly due to not enough staff as well as 2 or 3 sleepers full of passengers don't put that much 'demand' on the diner. It was a far cry from 40 years ago on the Meteor when 2 diners were serving full speed ahead for 7-8 sleepers and perhaps 4-5 coaches full of passengers.
 
When I was doing scratch-pad math on sleeper limits for the eastern LD trains, I used three dinner seatings as my basis. It's possible you could turn a table four times, but that would likely involve a relatively rushed experience or heavily-stretched meal times. My guess is that three is the "normal" limit while you could get to 3.5 or 4.0 seatings on super-peak days.
 
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