New train (40-41 Floridian) between Miami and Chicago via Washington DC

[OmahaRoad]

All this talk about the Star, got me thinking about RGH. Sure enough I did some checking for Jan 2025. Sold out coming and going between RGH-NYP. That means the Carolinian has the potential to see even more riders.

No kidding...this now-likely change will kinda screw over, to put it bluntly, many NC riders, mostly Triangle-area riders, but others as well. Sigh. Having a single solitary option to get north of D.C. without a train change is ridiculous for such a growing area, especially when the Carolinian is generally bursting at the seams as it is. Yes, I am aware of the S Line plans that should improve travel times + frequencies at least to Richmond and D.C., but those plans are what, 10 years or more from coming to fruition, at least? (I'm talking the whole corridor, not just the starter bit to Wake Forest or whatever that was funded late last year).

I live in the Triangle and much prefer taking the Star to the Northeast rather than the Carolinian. In addition to it being less crowded and having the option of a roommette for those who would like meals + peace, quiet, and space to work en route, the onboard staff have been friendlier and less harried. I don't blame the staff, but the Carolinian is not an altogether pleasant experience at times, especially since it is so consistently delayed. Additionally, the Carolinian just plain takes longer from RGH as it's the "milk train" and stops at more stations than the Star does.

I get the idea that "they must do something to improve superliner availability" but this is going to create challenges and will really bother folks in NC--it can't be just me?!

Although the best of both worlds (I guess) would be for NCDOT to somehow finagle a second daily Carolinian, there aren't current near-term plans for that, and I doubt there's a timeslot up on the NEC either?

 

[jis]

Although the best of both worlds (I guess) would be for NCDOT to somehow finagle a second daily Carolinian, there aren't current near-term plans for that, and I doubt there's a timeslot up on the NEC either?

I agree. Actually I believe that irrespective of what happens with the Star it is time to consider doing a second Carolinian, about two hours displaced from the current one. It will require pushing the current one an hour later northbound in order to stay clear of the Star. But it would work otherwise.

As for timeslots on the NEC, there are plenty of those outside of the rush hours. Both on the NEC in general and Hudson Tubes and Penn Station NY in particular.

I suspect the Silver Star and Capitol Ltd will be marketed as two separate trains whose equipment just happens to run through, with everyone one thrown off at DC, just as they had same day thru operations of the Empire Builder / City of New Orleans, Southwest Chief / Captiol Ltd, and Texas Eagle / City of New Orleans over the decades.

I don't think they will have enough time to take the train to the yard to service and then bring back to the platform. Whatever they do with the passengers and crew, they will have to service the consist in platform unless they are planning to drastically retime the trains.

 

[joelkfla]

I suspect the Silver Star and Capitol Ltd will be marketed as two separate trains whose equipment just happens to run through, with everyone one thrown off at DC, just as they had same day thru operations of the Empire Builder / City of New Orleans, Southwest Chief / Captiol Ltd, and Texas Eagle / City of New Orleans over the decades.

I don't see any reason for that. The current schedules have 1 hour separation in WAS north & westbound, and 2 hours east & southbound. Schedule changes would be minimal to compress it down to a normal crew change stop.

 

[Palmland]

I wouldn’t put it past Amtrak to ignore this opportunity to market a one seat ride Miami to Chicago as @Amtrak25 mentions.

But, done right, the dwell time at WAS would be minimal with maybe the power changed to eliminate fueling. The crew could certainly work through (total time maybe 45 hrs vs 52 on CZ). The train could be stocked for the entire run at origin with maybe perishables topped off at WAS.

The benefits to Amtrak are significant: improved crew and equipment utilization, reduced switching and servicing costs in Washington, more effective use of scarce Superliner equipment, and another slot for higher revenue NEC train.

Passengers could benefit from the much more convenient through routing between the south and Midwest and the Capitol portion gets real food again!

The only downside, as mentioned, is for those passengers from Tampa, Raleigh (although they have the Carolinian option) and Columbia area wanting to go to NEC points. Of course Amtrak could schedule a cross platform connection in WAS for NEC passengers. A better solution would be a through coach and sleeper connecting to an NEC train in WAS.

But then we are all just having a good time purely speculating!

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I wouldn’t put it past Amtrak to ignore this opportunity to market a one seat ride Miami to Chicago as @Amtrak25 mentions.

Well the rumor started here, I have yet to seen an explanation of what there doing.

But, done right, the dwell time at WAS would be minimal with maybe the power changed to eliminate fueling. The crew could certainly work through (total time maybe 45 hrs vs 52 on CZ). The train could be stocked for the entire run at origin with maybe perishables topped off at WAS.

Not sure why you could not just run the original power all the way.

The OBS crew would be interesting on which jobs get eliminated or if the OBS switch trains at Washington.

Have the ability to restock enroute is interesting but a lot of work too.

The benefits to Amtrak are significant: improved crew and equipment utilization, reduced switching and servicing costs in Washington, more effective use of scarce Superliner equipment, and another slot for higher revenue NEC train.

Agree the benefits are strong.

Passengers could benefit from the much more convenient through routing between the south and Midwest and the Capitol portion gets real food again!

Agree with the passengers upside.

The only downside, as mentioned, is for those passengers from Tampa, Raleigh (although they have the Carolinian option) and Columbia area wanting to go to NEC points. Of course Amtrak could schedule a cross platform connection in WAS for NEC passengers. A better solution would be a through coach and sleeper connecting to an NEC train in WAS.

Not a big downside, you advertise it on the booking page as two trains. I purchased tickets this way all the time.

But then we are all just having a good time purely speculating!

Maybe or maybe not. Something a changing with the Sliver Star.

 

[Steve4031]

IMHO, marketing this as a one-seat ride to Florida is the only way. Many non-railfans lament the fact that there is no through train to Florida. Getting on and off of the same train is no better than changing from Capitol Limited to Silver Meteor or Star. They could schedule the stop in Washington, D.C., for the same amount of time as the trains going from the NEC to the south.

 

[joelkfla]

The only downside, as mentioned, is for those passengers from Tampa, Raleigh (although they have the Carolinian option) and Columbia area wanting to go to NEC points. Of course Amtrak could schedule a cross platform connection in WAS for NEC passengers. A better solution would be a through coach and sleeper connecting to an NEC train in WAS.

Another downside is the loss of sleeper inventory between FL & NYP, unless Amtrak restores the SM to 4 sleepers. I suppose transferring from the SS to a NER wouldn't be that terrible, except for the lack of checked baggage.

 

[cocojacoby]

Of course Amtrak could schedule a cross platform connection in WAS for NEC passengers. A better solution would be a through coach and sleeper connecting to an NEC train in WAS.

I don't think that will happen since the NEC corridor trains leave from the upstairs high-level platforms and the through trains use the lower level low-level platforms.

 

[jis]

I don't think that will happen since the NEC corridor trains leave from the upstairs high-level platforms and the through trains use the lower level low-level platforms.

They could do a cross platform with a properly timed Virginia train. When there is will there is a way.

 

[jis]

With thru cars, it becomes which NEC train northbound. Some of those trains come from Virigina, and then if 92 is late, then what ? Works on paper, not in reality.

I haven't looked at 92's performance, but we'll see how that impacts 29's punctuality in starting off on-time, ramifications of Pennsylvanian's refugees at Pittsburgh, and how NS behaves in being handed off a late train in the midwest.

When trains are late you miss the planned connection and have to do some additional footwork to make another connection. That is what will happen. On some days you won't get cross platform, big deal. Not like you won't get some connection within an hour or two. I think this is about as close to a non-issue that one can get to argue over

Incidentally this is relatively common in airline hub and spoke operation. There is a planned connection. Due to various reasons on a particular day it is missed and you get to connect to to a different flight, If the connection is to a heavily traveled route then the time lost is minimal. If it is on a sparsely served route you get to wait longer. The NEC is a densely served route so the missed connection issue northwards is not a show stopper at all.

 

[Amtrak25]

I was referring only to the logistics of thru cars that won't work.

 

[jis]

I was referring only to the logistics of thru cars that won't work.

Ah OK. My bad.

Thru cars are a non starter going forward even if all trains ran perfectly on time. The Virginia and indeed all NEC trains become Airo sets in a few years. No one is going to attach random cars to those trains. The only transfer could happen to or from another overnight LD train.

Someone also mentioned transferring cars in Richmond. That is not going to happen due to lack of infrastructure to do it.

 

[Amtrak25]

Even now, top and tailed Regional trains aren't going to get busted apart.

On an Ad Hoc basis, if a Regional train is chasing 92 a few minutes behind into Alexandria, they can evacuate there. But checked baggage is another matter, just like a Roanoke train and the Crescent sometimes have a horse race.

 

[frequentflyer]

So there is a rumor over on Trainorders of the Capital Limited going single level and the Silver Star stopping at Washington DC instead of NYC. The Cap would use the Silver Star's equipment and the Superliners would love back west. Or possibly combined into one train?

Back in the day, didn't Amtrak have a thru coach from the Cap Ltd. to one of the Silver trains?

 

[Palmland]

Someone also mentioned transferring cars in Richmond. That is not going to happen due to lack of infrastructure to do it.

I agree RVR would not be a good transfer point because of the lack of frequent NEC service if the Star is late (and unhappy sleeper passengers if they have to transfer before WAS). But with a third run thru track added a couple years ago, the infrastructure should be ok, especially during day light when nothing is laying over.

 

[jis]

So there is a rumor over on Trainorders of the Capital Limited going single level and the Silver Star stopping at Washington DC instead of NYC. The Cap would use the Silver Star's equipment and the Superliners would love back west. Or possibly combined into one train?

We have been discussing this here at AU for almost a week now. See the thread at:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/thread...ce-discussion-q4-2023-2024.86123/post-1038692

There is nothing new mentioned on Trainorders that has not been covered in detail here.

Back in the day, didn't Amtrak have a thru coach from the Cap Ltd. to one of the Silver trains?

Yes. Also discussed in the Atlantic Coast Service thread. See:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/thread...ce-discussion-q4-2023-2024.86123/post-1038840

 

[cocojacoby]

They could do a cross platform with a properly timed Virginia train. When there is will there is a way.

Good point although lugging a bunch of luggage down and up the stairs won't be much fun.

 

[jis]

Good point although lugging a bunch of luggage down and up the stairs won't be much fun.

High level platforms are slated to be constructed at Washington Union Station Lower Level. In fact there will be only two low level platform tracks and three or four high level platform tracks when all is said and done at the lower level IIRC>

 

[cocojacoby]

High level platforms are slated to be constructed at Washington Union Station Lower Level. In fact there will be only two low level platform tracks and three or four high level platform tracks when all is said and done at the lower level IIRC>

So not eliminating the possibility of Superliner equipped trains in the future. Glad the option for future Superliner trains D.C. to Florida or even Chicago to Florida would still be feasible.

 

[jis]

So not eliminating the possibility of Superliner equipped trains in the future. Glad the option for future Superliner trains D.C. to Florida or even Chicago to Florida would still be feasible.

The low level platforms are primarily for VRE trains which require low level platform. Incidentally Amtrak could run Superliner through there too.

 

[frequentflyer]

So why not combine the two trains and have Silver Star run to Chicago?

Never understood why the Silver Meteor was considered the premier train of the two. The Silver Star goes to bigger population centers.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The Sliver Meteor has connections to north and east. Both ways. For me to catch the Star from upstate NY it’s a bit harder than the Meteor. Therefore the better train for those not in NYC.

 

[Palmland]

lugging a bunch of luggage down and up the stairs won't be much fun.

I wonder if the new high level platforms could include a small enclosed waiting area for transferring passengers. The one at the center platform in Wilmington works quite well.

 

[fdaley]

The Sliver Meteor has connections to north and east. Both ways. For me to catch the Star from upstate NY it’s a bit harder than the Meteor. Therefore the better train for those not in NYC.

This, plus the Meteor is much faster from NYP to Jacksonville than the Star, given the latter's roundabout routing via Selma.

From New England and Albany, the southbound Star requires a very early morning departure, and the northbound requires a late night -- plus the risk of missing the last connection if the Star is late. The Carolinian and Palmetto are basically impossible to use from anywhere north of NYC, as is the Star from points west of Albany.

 

[TransitTyrant]

This is an interesting idea. I hope it’s true. Potentially a much better utilization of the available equipment and would help with the superliner fleet situation…..if they also were able to get superliners off the Carbondale service would go a long way towards getting towards pre pandemic capacities out west. I guess the biggest draw back is the loss of a one seat ride for New York and Philly to Tampa…..but given the ample transfer options on the corridor the benefits probably outweigh the loss of that one seat pairing. And for every other Florida destination you could just use the Meteor to avoid a transfer. Interesting stuff.

Not really related to this discussion but Amtrak applied for a waiver from the FRA to install antenna on their locomotives to properly shunt crossing signals.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/04/19/2024-08365/petition-for-waiver-of-compliance