News on daily Sunset (incl older east of NOL discussion)

[Seaboard92]

Interesting read. Looks like I won't see the equipment on 19. But I will see it on it's northbound trip which I'm thinking will be on 92. I'm really not happy that I have to miss this but it'll do. On regards to the Atlanta-Texas route. I would think running New York to Atlanta running as a day train New York Atlanta would be wonderful.

 

[pennyk]

Here is the schedule for the special. I am sure NARP will not mind dissemination of this information widely. The document in the photo of course is © NARP.

ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1455467217.287185.jpg

If you can make it to any of these stops, please do try to down up to show support. I will be at Jacksonville.

I am planning to be at Jacksonville also. I will be taking 98 (assuming it will be on time). I had an Amtrak Vacations gift card that I used for this short trip. After being on hold for over an hour trying to speak to an Amtrak Vacations agent and make a reservation, I am now waiting "patiently" for my e-ticket to arrive (which was supposed to be emailed about an hour ago).

 

[jis]

I will drive up from Melbourne - a 2.5 hour drive on I-95. I will probably stay overnight in the JAX area and then take a leisurely drive back along Route 1 and A1A the next day. Which reminds me, I should probably get a place holder hotel reservation.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

A Dallas-Shreveport line was proposed a few years ago, and then an extended version from Dallas-Jackson was proposed a year or two later; presumably Dallas-Atlanta is a further-extended version of the same thing. It would most certainly require a new Atlanta station, but apart from that Dallas-Atlanta is easy. From Dallas to Jackson would require stations at Shreveport (or Bossier City) and Vicksburg. And of course new rolling stock, locomotives, and agreement with KCS would be required.

There's a group in East Texas that's been campaigning for a train or trains Ft Worth-Dallas-Longview-Marshall-Shreveport for some years. From Ft Worth to Marshall is tracks used by the Texas Eagle. Dallas Metroplex-Shreveport/Bossier City is a likely corridor due to sin: Riverboat casinos along the Red River attract a considerable number of sinners from the wicked Big City, because Texas does not allow most gambling. In between are not-THAT-small towns left over from the great East Texas Oil Field.

Heading east from Shreveport there's Ruston, a town with 12,000 students at Louisiana Tech, Monroe with 170,000 metro pop. then Vicksburg n Jackson as you say. It would be nice to offer a connection at Jackson, north to Memphis and Chicago, south to New Orleans, Mobile, Orlando.

A second frequency, after the Crescent, from Atlanta to Birmingham could be the beginning of corridor service on that slow and twisty route.

Another wish-list item would be to extend the train west, thru Abilene and Midland-Odessa-to El Paso, to join the route of the Sunset Ltd, or Texas Eagle or whatever it will be called by then. But someone who sounded like they knew their stuff said that to get the Eagle onto the TRE line Dallas-Ft Worth, the UP bargained a provision that could block and future passenger train service on its longer route.

 

[neroden]

Thankfully the Dallas-Marshall-Shreveport-Vicksburg-Jackson-Birmingham-Atlanta-(onward to NY) route could use the existing stations at Marshall (albeit with a new second platform), Jackson, Meridian, and Birmingham; the railroads are arranged correctly for that.

This reduces the problem to:

(1) agreement with UP for Dallas-Shreveport (rumors have been that they're OK with it)

(2) agreement with KCS for Shreveport-Meridian (no rumors whatsoever as to how they would react; they don't host Amtrak for more than a couple of miles now)

(3) agreement with NS for Meridian-east (they will *definitely* demand a new Atlanta station, but are likely to be pretty OK with it otherwise)

(4) station funding for Shreveport and Vicksburg (I think these are the minimum; Ruston and Monroe would be bonus)

(5) funding to buy locomotives and rolling stock

(6) any track & signal improvements needed for decent speed, or demanded by the railroads (no idea how much)

(7) operational funding

I like this route for a few reasons. It's an east-west route which is south of Chicago, avoids the Appalachians, and is north of the flood zone along the Gulf Coast. The downside is the need for money from Mississippi, but it may be easier than funding for the Gulf Coast route since it goes through the state capital.

 

[west point]

Neroden: Good summary. However Birmingham - Atlanta actually goes thru the southern Appalachians. There are several NNE - SSW glacier carved mountain ranges. Even has a few played out coal mines. Road mileage 155, rail mileage 164, crow mileage ~ 122 miles. So the 4:10 Crescent schedule including the Anniston stop averages just over 30 MPH. If only there was a HrSR line between the two cities getting with a 2 hour enroute time. That would make your whole route very workable.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Neroden: Good summary. However Birmingham - Atlanta actually goes thru the southern Appalachians. There are several NNE - SSW glacier carved mountain ranges. Even has a few played out coal mines. Road mileage 155, rail mileage 164, crow mileage ~ 122 miles. So the 4:10 Crescent schedule including the Anniston stop averages just over 30 MPH. If only there was a HrSR line between the two cities getting with a 2 hour enroute time. That would make your whole route very workable.

A long route has to have a dark segment somewhere, of course, and the slowest section usually works best. Like the plan for the extended CONO sans chef would go between Mobile at midnight and Tallahassee at dawn (and reverse).
The long desired "day train" NYC-ATL could leave ATL in the evening and pass thru this 30-mph zone in the dark. Even if it was night time passing thru Birmingham and Meridian (they already have service from the Crescent), an early morning arrival in Jackson would allow (with a wait of several hours) an afternoon connection to the CONO to Memphis and Chicago. Then a daytime ride thru on KCS's "Meridian Speedway" for evening arrival in the Dallas Ft Worth Metroplex.

 

[Seaboard92]

It really will be a mini gathering down in Jacksonville. Looks like I'm chasing Tallahassee to JAX. Me and another new AU member.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

... use the existing stations at Marshall (albeit with a new second platform), Jackson, Meridian, and Birmingham ...

This reduces the problem to:

(1) agreement with UP for Dallas-Shreveport ...

(2) agreement with KCS for Shreveport-Meridian

Wikipedia suggests that the Meridian Speedway is in good shape and underused:

In 1993, KCS acquired the line . . . 2005, KCS and NS announced . . . a joint venture. KCS contributed the rail line, NS $300 million in cash, almost all of which was slated for capital improvements to increase capacity and improve transit times. . . . By September 2007, about $135 million had been spent on the improvements. Several new and longer passing sidings were installed along with a new CTC signaling system. The mainline was effectively rebuilt from the ground up with new ballast, crossties and heavier welded rail. Soon after this first round of improvements, about 45 trains per day traversed the line.

Today the line sees fewer than 15 trains per day, mostly run-through Norfolk Southern/Union Pacific intermodal trains.

(3) agreement with NS for Meridian-east (they will *definitely* demand a new Atlanta station . . . )

No "day train" will come to ATL until it gets a working station. LOL.

(4) station funding for Shreveport and Vicksburg . . . Ruston and Monroe would be bonus

The casino interests will make sure a nice station is ready in Shreveport.

You're overestimating Vicksburg for historical reasons, and that could attract a disproportionate number of tourists. But it's about the same pop as Ruston, without a big college like Ruston's Louisiana Tech. Greater Monroe is 6 or 7x as big as Vicksburg, plus thousands of students at a Univ of Louisiana branch campus and at nearby Grambling State.

But it seems local funding (plus TIGER grants) is often easier to get than any help on the tracks, so I doubt that stations will be a stumbling block.

(5) funding to buy locomotives and rolling stock

Where's that 70-car CAF option when we need it! Might have to use rehabbed Horizons.

(6) any track & signal improvements needed for decent speed, or demanded by the railroads

Again, Wikipedia indicates it won't be much if any needed west of Meridian. Make sure the stations are on sidings not to block other trains. Build a couple of 10,000 ft sidings and good to go.

East of Meridian, and thru the tail end of the Appalachians, someone could make a persuasive case for tunnels, oh, boy.

(7) operational funding

Texas and Louisiana might well fund that Dallas-Shreveport corridor that largely overlaps the Eagle. That segment will show an operating profit on weekends. LOL. We'll see if the Pelican State puts in a million or two to extended the CONO eastward from New Orleans. Heck, we'll see if Mississippi chips in. If they do, that would set a nice precedent. And log-rolling would begin: "The state is paying for your train, now vote to pay for our train." Alabama and Georgia should help cover costs for the Atlanta-Birmingham corridor. And of course, it should be simply part of Amtrak's budget for the national system.

This route has been talked about for years. It ain't going nowhere until after the CONO sans chef is up and going. Then the Southern Railroad Commission can turn its efforts to this route and we'll see.

 

[DSS&A]

Hi,

Okay, here is the link.

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/02/do_you_want_more_passenger_rai.html

 

[neroden]

Huh. Woody, you're right and I'm wrong about the cities en route. Vicksburg is more of a transportation junction, but it's startlingly small for that role. It's also relatively close to Jackson.

You could definitely get by with just Shreveport, and Monroe would be the most valuable intermediate stop; in addition to the population it's roughly halfway between Shreveport and Jackson.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

Personally I would prefer to see shorter route of Miami-New Orleans rather than extending Sunset all the way to Florida again.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Personally I would prefer to see shorter route of Miami-New Orleans rather than extending Sunset all the way to Florida again.

I'm pretty sure the Sunset itself isn't coming east of NOL again. Everyone wants daily service and tri-weekly is out of the question.

 

[jis]

Personally I would prefer to see shorter route of Miami-New Orleans rather than extending Sunset all the way to Florida again.

What is planned is Orlando - New Orleans. No Miami. And no Sunset Limited extension. It is either a separate train or a CONO extension. No one wants tri-weekly service and it is impossible cost justify it anyway.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

If Amtrak goes through on its PRIIA, then the Sunset Limited (technically what's left of it, NOL-SAS) would be daily (then TE would be CHI-SAS and passengers would have to transfer in SAS during the graveyard shift to/from the TE, ughh!) If that scenario does play out, maybe they could do SAS to Florida daily? The "new" SL (NOL-SAS) would be less than 750 miles so if they can't do that based on the 750 mile rule, they then could do SAS-ORL or SAS-JAX.

 

[keelhauled]

The Sunset Limited is irrelevant. It wasn't even an option in Amtrak's study. Frankly I suspect that any and all PIP proposals are irrelevant by this time as well, and the SL will continue to muddle along as it is regardless of what happens on the Gulf Coast.

 

[jis]

If Amtrak goes through on its PRIIA, then the Sunset Limited (technically what's left of it, NOL-SAS) would be daily (then TE would be CHI-SAS and passengers would have to transfer in SAS during the graveyard shift to/from the TE, ughh!) If that scenario does play out, maybe they could do SAS to Florida daily? The "new" SL (NOL-SAS) would be less than 750 miles so if they can't do that based on the 750 mile rule, they then could do SAS-ORL or SAS-JAX.

That is not what is planned and is unlikely to happen anyway. It will either be a stand alone NOL - ORL service or an extension of the CONO to ORL or God forbid, an NOL - Mobile train and then a Thruway bus from there to JAX.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

As someone who lives along the Sunset Limited I would suggest Amtrak work toward making the SL daily, preferably with improved calling times for SAS and LAX. Either that or suspend the entire route and use the SL resources to improve or enhance a more productive route somewhere else. If Union Pacific is still demanding $750 million in exchange for a one time schedule change then maybe it's time to admit defeat and move on. It's not realistic to think Amtrak is ever going to have any functional leverage against a corporation of UP's size and the SL's resources could probably be used to greater effect elsewhere anyhow.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

As someone who lives along the Sunset Limited route I would suggest Amtrak work toward making it daily, preferably with improved calling times for SAS and LAX, or simply get rid of it altogether and use the SL resources to improve or enhance a more important route somewhere else. This perpetual limping along nonsense makes the current SL hard to use and even harder to support.

This was my shot at the SL reschedule.

Sunset Limited Heartland Flyer Reschedule Proposal January 2016.pdf

 

[Matthew1551]

As someone who lives along the Sunset Limited route I would suggest Amtrak work toward making it daily, preferably with improved calling times for SAS and LAX, or simply get rid of it altogether and use the SL resources to improve or enhance a more important route somewhere else. This perpetual limping along nonsense makes the current SL hard to use and even harder to support.

This was my shot at the SL reschedule.

I like that schedule. It makes the San Antonio stop very doable while keeping the terminal ends at decent arrival/departure times. Nice job.
(Edited)

One thing to consider is the connection at LA to the Coast Starlight. How would that work out at the current schedule?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

If Amtrak goes through on its PRIIA, then the Sunset Limited (technically what's left of it, NOL-SAS) would be daily.

Daily would 133% better -- much better -- than 3 days a week. I've been calling that the Sunset Shuttle. What that segment needs is not rejiggering the schedules. It needs a second (or better a third) train, like the Peidmont Corridor has now.

The line should be strong: tourism, oil&gas NOL - oil&gas, Univ of Louisiana Lafayette - oil&gas Lake Charles - oil&gas Beaumont - oil&gas, tourism HOU - tourism, oil&gas SAS. But it's terribly slow now, about 40 mph. So start slow, with a daily Sunset Shuttle.

then TE would be CHI-SAS

The Texas Eagle would be CHI-SAS-L.A.

Sunset Shuttle passengers would have to [transfer] walk across the platform in SAS [during the graveyard shift to/from the TE, ughh!] before midnight or in early morning. Eagle pax likewise.

If that scenario does play out, maybe they could do SAS to Florida daily? The "new" SL (NOL-SAS) would be less than 750 miles so if they can't do that based on the 750 mile rule, they then could do SAS-ORL or SAS-JAX.

You're looking at things upside down. The WB Eagle, with riders from CHI-STL-DAL-FTW-AUS and intermediate points, will far outnumber Sunset Shuttle riders from NOL and HOU. Look out for them first.

Anyway, I'm perfectly happy with the announced plan to extend the CONO to Orlando. The numbers work: Adding well over 100,000 riders a year for a modest $5 or $10 million, with new national system connections at NOL and Jacksonville.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

As someone who lives along the Sunset Limited route I would suggest Amtrak work toward making it daily, preferably with improved calling times for SAS and LAX, or simply get rid of it altogether and use the SL resources to improve or enhance a more important route somewhere else. This perpetual limping along nonsense makes the current SL hard to use and even harder to support.

This was my shot at the SL reschedule.

I like that schedule. It makes the San Antonio stop very doable while keeping the terminal ends at decent arrival/departure times. Nice job.
(Edited)

One thing to consider is the connection at LA to the Coast Starlight. How would that work out at the current schedule?

It would have to be an overnight in LA. My goal was to eliminate the overnight requirement in NOL between the Sunset and the Crescent/CONO and the transfer to the CS had to be a casualty. I think the transfers in NOL were more important and allowed for faster coast to coast travel along the south and between Florida and Texas. Even with the CONO extension, travel between the two states would require an overnight in NOL.

 

[Matthew1551]

As someone who lives along the Sunset Limited route I would suggest Amtrak work toward making it daily, preferably with improved calling times for SAS and LAX, or simply get rid of it altogether and use the SL resources to improve or enhance a more important route somewhere else. This perpetual limping along nonsense makes the current SL hard to use and even harder to support.

This was my shot at the SL reschedule.

I like that schedule. It makes the San Antonio stop very doable while keeping the terminal ends at decent arrival/departure times. Nice job.
(Edited)

One thing to consider is the connection at LA to the Coast Starlight. How would that work out at the current schedule?

It would have to be an overnight in LA. My goal was to eliminate the overnight requirement in NOL between the Sunset and the Crescent/CONO and the transfer to the CS had to be a casualty. I think the transfers in NOL were more important and allowed for faster coast to coast travel along the south and between Florida and Texas. Even with the CONO extension, travel between the two states would require an overnight in NOL.

That's unfortunate, but it isn't perfect, as we can see now. I can see your point about making for quicker C2C travel in the US and I might even agree with you, but I know there are people who like the short "layover" in LA when the CS gets in at ~9:00pm and they can board the SL at 10:00pm. Either way, it's going to be uncomfortable for somebody :/

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

If Amtrak goes through on its PRIIA, then the Sunset Limited (technically what's left of it, NOL-SAS) would be daily.

Daily would 133% better -- much better -- than 3 days a week. I've been calling that the Sunset Shuttle. What that segment needs is not rejiggering the schedules. It needs a second (or better a third) train, like the Peidmont Corridor has now.

The line should be strong: tourism, oil&gas NOL - oil&gas, Univ of Louisiana Lafayette - oil&gas Lake Charles - oil&gas Beaumont - oil&gas, tourism HOU - tourism, oil&gas SAS. But it's terribly slow now, about 40 mph. So start slow, with a daily Sunset Shuttle.

then TE would be CHI-SAS

The Texas Eagle would be CHI-SAS-L.A.

Sunset Shuttle passengers would have to [transfer] walk across the platform in SAS [during the graveyard shift to/from the TE, ughh!] before midnight or in early morning. Eagle pax likewise.

If that scenario does play out, maybe they could do SAS to Florida daily? The "new" SL (NOL-SAS) would be less than 750 miles so if they can't do that based on the 750 mile rule, they then could do SAS-ORL or SAS-JAX.

You're looking at things upside down. The WB Eagle, with riders from CHI-STL-DAL-FTW-AUS and intermediate points, will far outnumber Sunset Shuttle riders from NOL and HOU. Look out for them first.

Anyway, I'm perfectly happy with the announced plan to extend the CONO to Orlando. The numbers work: Adding well over 100,000 riders a year for a modest $5 or $10 million, with new national system connections at NOL and Jacksonville.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/970/304/PRIIA-210-SunsetLtd-TexasEagle-PIP,0.pdf

Westbound, the 1 would arrive in SAS at 11:00pm. If everything goes as planned, the TE will arrive in SAS at 10:30pm and passengers east of SAS could board the TE immediately.

Eastbound, the 22 would arrive in SAS at 6:50am with the 2 leaving SAS at 7:50am.

They should require the 2 to not leave SAS until the 22 arrives and passengers have the chance to board the 2. Otherwise, you've got stranded passengers if the 22 arrives late into SAS. Currently passengers don't have to worry about that scenario.

As for westbound, they should require that passengers should be able to stay in the 1 until the 21 arrives. Otherwise if the 21 arrives in SAS late, what happens to the passengers from the 1? Stuck in SAS's Am-shack in the middle of the night?

If Amtrak trains are on schedule, it's no big deal. You laughed after that first statement didn't you?

Why can't Amtrak just keep the through cars? Seems easier to me.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

If Amtrak goes through on its PRIIA, then the Sunset Limited (technically what's left of it, NOL-SAS) would be daily.

Daily would 133% better -- much better -- than 3 days a week. I've been calling that the Sunset Shuttle. What that segment needs is not rejiggering the schedules. It needs a second (or better a third) train, like the Peidmont Corridor has now.

The line should be strong: tourism, oil&gas NOL - oil&gas, Univ of Louisiana Lafayette - oil&gas Lake Charles - oil&gas Beaumont - oil&gas, tourism HOU - tourism, oil&gas SAS. But it's terribly slow now, about 40 mph. So start slow, with a daily Sunset Shuttle.

then TE would be CHI-SAS

The Texas Eagle would be CHI-SAS-L.A.

Sunset Shuttle passengers would have to [transfer] walk across the platform in SAS [during the graveyard shift to/from the TE, ughh!] before midnight or in early morning. Eagle pax likewise.

If that scenario does play out, maybe they could do SAS to Florida daily? The "new" SL (NOL-SAS) would be less than 750 miles so if they can't do that based on the 750 mile rule, they then could do SAS-ORL or SAS-JAX.

You're looking at things upside down. The WB Eagle, with riders from CHI-STL-DAL-FTW-AUS and intermediate points, will far outnumber Sunset Shuttle riders from NOL and HOU. Look out for them first.

Anyway, I'm perfectly happy with the announced plan to extend the CONO to Orlando. The numbers work: Adding well over 100,000 riders a year for a modest $5 or $10 million, with new national system connections at NOL and Jacksonville.

When I calculated a few weeks ago I saw more passengers east of SAS than north of SAS traveling west of SAS.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/65416-the-gulf-sunset-limited-coming-back-again/?p=642846