News on daily Sunset (incl older east of NOL discussion)

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Here's another article, in USA Today, that's very friendly to the project:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/nation-now/2016/01/01/officials-pushing-return-passenger-rail-gulf-coast/78175902/

Interesting choice of words that I put in bold:

... re-establishing a Gulf Coast line could produce ... nearly 154,000 annual passengers for round trip service to Orlando. ...
Money to pay for it ... would come from local, state and federal sources. Amtrak ... owns only the lines in its profitable Northeast Corridor and uses subsidies from states in which it operates to fill the gap between revenue from passengers and federal funds.

Apparently the reporter was told about the funding formula for the state-supported corridor trains. But he doesn't mention the subsidies of the other LD trains from Congressional appropriations, without any state contributions.

Makes me wonder if Congress is pushing Amtrak toward getting the states to pay part, or all, of the costs for the LD trains, with the CONO sans chef extension as a $5 million test case.

I think the federal government and states/cities should share the costs of trains. I don't think the current separation is the right way. I have complained in the past about why Amtrak/federal government demands states pitch in for new or expanded services while the current services get a free pass (as far as the states are concerned). I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some funding from states for at least some of the current LD routes. If a given route benefits one or two states more than others, they should chip in at least some of the money. On the other hand, maybe if some of those burdens shift to states, it could free up federal Amtrak money to fund new or expanded shorter distance services that would be more successful.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

There should be no loss per rider...

There should be an explanation for how you came to this conclusion.

 

[TylerP42]

Probably just wishful thinking...

 

[neroden]

Florida quite famously has the most unsafe streets & roads in the nation for pedestrians. You take your life in your hands crossing the street there. It's been spectacularly autocentric for a disturbingly long time. I hope the trend is changing.

 

[GG-1]

Florida quite famously has the most unsafe streets & roads in the nation for pedestrians. You take your life in your hands crossing the street there. It's been spectacularly autocentric for a disturbingly long time. I hope the trend is changing.

Hate to say it but LV is worse, I think we averaged 1 every 3 days last year. I have almost hit several dressed in black walking down the middle of an unlit street.

Aloha

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Along the road (highway) I live next too, every block has a road side memorial. There is one outside of my neighborhood, but that was a different matter.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Pretty dangerous here in Austin for pedestrians and bike riders too!

We may not have the worst drivers and traffic, but as old Dizzy Dean used to say, "We're amongst them!"

 

[jis]

http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/news/local_news/riding-the-rails-in-madison/article_0a153d09-131c-5675-a310-2ed3b6ecb426.html

MADISON, Fla. — Moves are afoot which could bring passenger rail service back to the Valdosta region for the first time in more than a decade.

The Southern Rail Commission, a tri-state body representing Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi, is working to convince Amtrak, America’s intercity passenger rail organization, to restore service across the Gulf Coast that was suspended in the wake of Hurricane Katrina in 2005.

Although Florida is not a part of the SRC, a number of north Florida cities, including Madison, have thrown their support behind the organization, according to a paper by the commission.

In Washington, a bill has cleared the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee with a provision to establish a Gulf Cost Rail Service Working Group that would evaluate the restoration of passenger rail service between New Orleans and Orlando, Fla.

......

 

[Palmetto]

Interesting: Florida is not part of the coalition. Not surprising, though. Texas and Florida: two peas in a pod.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Interesting: Florida is not part of the coalition. Not surprising, though. Texas and Florida: two peas in a pod.

Yep, same kind of politicians and millions of tourists and immigrants mixed with the native rednecks and the working poor creating sort of a Mississippi/Alabama/Georgia with nice beaches!

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I'm pretty sure Texas can't level up to Florida's tourism. With that said, a lot of people want to see something go east of New Orleans. Florida included, whether the politicians in this state see that or not.

 

[jis]

Interesting: Florida is not part of the coalition. Not surprising, though. Texas and Florida: two peas in a pod.

Yep, same kind of politicians and millions of tourists and immigrants mixed with the native rednecks and the working poor creating sort of a Mississippi/Alabama/Georgia with nice beaches!

Interesting characterization.... sort of like Texas is more correct than anything like Mississippi, Alabama or Georgia as far as poverty goes.Actually the poverty rate in FL in the last year from which data is available was 17%, TX 17.5%, Alabama 18.76%, Mississippi 24%, Georgia 19%.

TX and FL are also similar in terms of the growing Hispanic population, and different from GA, AL, MS in that respect too. Florida is way more of a competitive state between red and blue at present than TX is though.

But as far as the Sunset East route goes, it is about as red as red can be except for a small area around Tallahassee and the center of JAX, leaving aside Orlando and Orange County for the moment. But on matter of passenger service there are several population centers around the route which locally support it irrespective of the color of the politician or his/her party. Unfortunately, not so much in the state house. I have given an example from closer to my neck of the woods on how the politics goes.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/news/local_news/riding-the-rails-in-madison/article_0a153d09-131c-5675-a310-2ed3b6ecb426.html

MADISON, Fla. — Moves are afoot which could bring passenger rail service back to the Valdosta region for the first time in more than a decade.

The Southern Rail Commission, a tri-state body representing Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi, is working ... to restore service across the Gulf Coast that was suspended … in 2005.

Although Florida is not a part of the SRC ...

......

This Southern Rail Commission is sure ambitious, considering the territory.

It was SRC that provided that nice little map of the route. If you squint, you can see another proposed route peeling off from the Crescent onto the Meridian Speedway -- Meridian-Jackson-Vicksburg-Monroe-Shreveport-Longview-Dallas-Ft Worth (527 miles). And another split off from the Crescent -- Birmingham-Montgomery-Mobile-Biloxi-New Orleans (243 miles). Then New Orleans-Baton Rouge (82 miles) as well.

They seem to have overlooked the route Bobby Jindal's proposed before he learned that because Obama was for passenger trains, Repubs like him were supposed to be agin 'em. That one went New Orleans-Baton Rouge-Alexandria-Shreveport-Longview-Dallas-Ft Worth (540 miles).

The SRC lucked up with the proposal for an extended CONO sans chef getting around the 750 mile cutoff that would have put all their plans at the mercy of unfriendly legislatures.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/news/local_news/riding-the-rails-in-madison/article_0a153d09-131c-5675-a310-2ed3b6ecb426.html

MADISON, Fla. — Moves are afoot which could bring passenger rail service back to the Valdosta region for the first time in more than a decade.

The Southern Rail Commission, a tri-state body representing Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi, is working ... to restore service across the Gulf Coast that was suspended … in 2005.

Although Florida is not a part of the SRC ...

......

This Southern Rail Commission is sure ambitious, considering the territory.

It was SRC that provided that nice little map of the route. If you squint, you can see another proposed route peeling off from the Crescent onto the Meridian Speedway -- Meridian-Jackson-Vicksburg-Monroe-Shreveport-Longview-Dallas-Ft Worth (527 miles). And another split off from the Crescent -- Birmingham-Montgomery-Mobile-Biloxi-New Orleans (243 miles). Then New Orleans-Baton Rouge (82 miles) as well.

They seem to have overlooked the route Bobby Jindal's proposed before he learned that because Obama was for passenger trains, Repubs like him were supposed to be agin 'em. That one went New Orleans-Baton Rouge-Alexandria-Shreveport-Longview-Dallas-Ft Worth (540 miles).

The SRC lucked up with the proposal for an extended CONO sans chef getting around the 750 mile cutoff that would have put all their plans at the mercy of unfriendly legislatures.

How about New Orleans-Houston-Dallas? I proposed the possibility by extending the Heartland Flyer to Houston and having a change of trains there with a Sunset Limited with a new schedule for better connections in NOL, especially if the CONO extension to Florida happens (http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/65927-proposal-for-extending-crescent-to-sas-improving-te-schedule/?p=640928).

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/news/local_news/riding-the-rails-in-madison/article_0a153d09-131c-5675-a310-2ed3b6ecb426.html

MADISON, Fla. — Moves are afoot which could bring passenger rail service back to the Valdosta region for the first time in more than a decade.

The Southern Rail Commission, a tri-state body representing Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi, is working ... to restore service across the Gulf Coast that was suspended … in 2005.

Although Florida is not a part of the SRC ...

......

This Southern Rail Commission is sure ambitious, considering the territory.

It was SRC that provided that nice little map of the route. If you squint, you can see another proposed route peeling off from the Crescent onto the Meridian Speedway -- Meridian-Jackson-Vicksburg-Monroe-Shreveport-Longview-Dallas-Ft Worth (527 miles). And another split off from the Crescent -- Birmingham-Montgomery-Mobile-Biloxi-New Orleans (243 miles). Then New Orleans-Baton Rouge (82 miles) as well.

They seem to have overlooked the route Bobby Jindal's proposed before he learned that because Obama was for passenger trains, Repubs like him were supposed to be agin 'em. That one went New Orleans-Baton Rouge-Alexandria-Shreveport-Longview-Dallas-Ft Worth (540 miles).

The SRC lucked up with the proposal for an extended CONO sans chef getting around the 750 mile cutoff that would have put all their plans at the mercy of unfriendly legislatures.

I'm still not feeling the Meridian-Dallas route off the Crescent with the current timing (2:58pm into Meridian). Can they go 527 miles in 9 hours (including boarding/detraining in Meridian and the split if you don't do it in Birmingham?) Otherwise, it's a graveyard shift arrival into Dallas.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/news/local_news/riding-the-rails-in-madison/article_0a153d09-131c-5675-a310-2ed3b6ecb426.html

MADISON, Fla. — Moves are afoot which could bring passenger rail service back to the Valdosta region for the first time in more than a decade.

The Southern Rail Commission, a tri-state body representing Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi, is working ... to restore service across the Gulf Coast that was suspended … in 2005.

Although Florida is not a part of the SRC ...

......

This Southern Rail Commission is sure ambitious, considering the territory.

It was SRC that provided that nice little map of the route. If you squint, you can see another proposed route peeling off from the Crescent onto the Meridian Speedway -- Meridian-Jackson-Vicksburg-Monroe-Shreveport-Longview-Dallas-Ft Worth (527 miles).

I'm still not feeling the Meridian-Dallas route off the Crescent with the current timing (2:58pm into Meridian). Can they go 527 miles in 9 hours (including boarding/detraining in Meridian and the split if you don't do it in Birmingham?) Otherwise, it's a graveyard shift arrival into Dallas.

The Meridian Speedway was upgraded for fast freight. Fast. But I don't have a guess what the timetable could be. Wikipedia gives some info:



"KCS and NS ... a joint venture… closed the deal on May 1, 2006. By September 2007, about $135 million had been spent on ... new and longer passing sidings ... along with a new CTC signaling system. The mainline was effectively rebuilt from the ground up with new ballast, crossties and heavier welded rail.

Soon after this first round of improvements, about 45 trains per day traversed the line ...

Today, the line sees fewer than 15 trains per day, mostly run-through Norfolk Southern/Union Pacific intermodal trains."

Seems like there should be room now for a couple of passenger trains a day.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

An alternative timetable, of course, would be to take the fabled Day Train to Atlanta and extend its schedule to Dallas. That would put Birmingham in the middle of the night, but can't please everybody. And Birmingham has good times on the Crescent (tho not to Dallas, LOL.)

However, as that GA DOT study you turned up demonstrated, ATL ain't ready for serious trains in any case. It also showed that upgrading the ATL-Birminham stretch thru the southern tail end of the Appalachian Mountains, which today features many curves and even tunnels, could cost Billions to get corridor quality, and naturally it is top of nobody's To-Do list.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

iirc, the PRIIA rules for any new Amtrak L.D. trains requires that they begin or end (or both?) in one of a list of named cities where Amtrak had, or could have had, an established maintenance facility of some level. Another train NYC-CHI, no problem. Of course, New Orleans is on the list, Miami, Sanford/Orlando, and San Antonio thanks to the Eagle. iirc Houston was not on the list. Not sure if Ft Worth (Heartland Flyer) made the cut. Don't think ATL did. Well, Congress made that law, and Congress could change it, but I'm not counting on it until the Bill passes both houses.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

iirc, the PRIIA rules for any new Amtrak L.D. trains requires that they begin or end (or both?) in one of a list of named cities where Amtrak had, or could have had, an established maintenance facility of some level. Another train NYC-CHI, no problem. Of course, New Orleans is on the list, Miami, Sanford/Orlando, and San Antonio thanks to the Eagle. iirc Houston was not on the list. Not sure if Ft Worth (Heartland Flyer) made the cut. Don't think ATL did. Well, Congress made that law, and Congress could change it, but I'm not counting on it until the Bill passes both houses.

The Heartland Flyer is not an LD train so I don't think the PRIIA rule you mention applies to it in terms of the HF terminating in Houston.

 

[DSS&A]

The upcoming Tiger grants can be used to get this project moving. The various cities can apply for Tiger grants to rebuild their train station sites as multi-modal transportation facilities. Mobile and the next proposed town to the west can apply for a joint application to reach the minimum dollar threshold. The key to getting a Tiger grant is to have a good mix of local matching funds from more than one source. An example would be city funds, county funds, local transit agency funds and private operators such as a taxi company, bus tour companies and a local business or two that would operate in the building (if possible). The exact amounts of the different sources can very, but the important fact is as any multiple sources as possible, multiple beneficiaries AND some private funds in addition to public funds. Another idea is that the cities could include the project as a part of a 3 to 5 (or more) block downtown redevelopment project which could then gather more private investment funds and more total project beneficiaries. Project like this can definitely help get this Gulf Coast passenger rail service restarted.

 

[fixj]

http://www.northescambia.com/2016/01/vip-train-will-roll-next-month-as-officials-study-rail-service-return-to-gulf-coast

 

[west point]

The statement about PRIIA limiting any new LD trains to present maintenance bases cannot be found by this poster. Can you enlighten us ?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

The statement about PRIIA limiting any new LD trains to present maintenance bases cannot be found by this poster. Can you enlighten us ?

No. My google search was as fruitless as yours. Does it count as a "statement" when it began, "iirc"? As it is, I may have recalled it correctly, or not, but I can't find a source. I'll keep looking.

Dayum. I even seem to recall a map. Hmmn. That's a clue.

 

[neroden]

That's from a subtle misremembering of the PRIIA rules. The definition of the "national network" is now, partly, "trains between endpoints which were served as of (some date)". The use of the term "endpoints" is the weird part. (Might have been "terminals" rather than "endpoints" but you get the point.) I forget the date but it's roughly the date of passage of PRIIA.

Amtrak is charged with running trains on the "national network" and is allowed to subsidize them with Congressional funding. If you run through the text of the law backwards and forwards, you eventually figure out that in order to run trains which are *not* on the "national network" Amtrak is required to not use Congressional subsidy (though Amtrak is not required to use the "PRIIA formula" used for the state corridors, so charging avoidable cost might be OK).

So Amtrak absolutely could start a new LD train between any endpoints if the train is profitable, or if the net costs are covered by an outside source. If Amtrak wants to start a new *federally subsidized* LD train, however, it has to use the same endpoints as the existing trains.

...which means that Amtrak can legally start a federally subsidized Broadway Limited, or North Coast Hiawatha, or Silver Palm, just in case anyone was wondering. I think this may have been written this way deliberately.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

That's from a subtle misremembering of the PRIIA rules. The definition of the "national network" is now, partly, "trains between endpoints which were served as of (some date)". ...

Amtrak is charged with running trains on the "national network" and is allowed to subsidize them with Congressional funding. ...

So Amtrak absolutely could start a new LD train between any endpoints if the train is profitable, or if the net costs are covered by an outside source. If Amtrak wants to start a new *federally subsidized* LD train, however, it has to use the same endpoints as the existing trains.

...which means that Amtrak can legally start a federally subsidized Broadway Limited, or North Coast Hiawatha, or Silver Palm, just in case anyone was wondering. I think this may have been written this way deliberately.

Thanks, Nathanael, for the info to rescue me! LOL.

I was trying to warn some enthusiasts that when we draw our imaginary new routes, preferably they should not end in Houston, or El Paso or Cheyenne, or Winnipeg, because those were not "endpoints" on the date named, and probably Atlanta wasn't either. So to get the federal subsidy, stick to the tried and true endpoints. Of course, Congress made the law, and Congress could change it.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

That's from a subtle misremembering of the PRIIA rules. The definition of the "national network" is now, partly, "trains between endpoints which were served as of (some date)". ...

Amtrak is charged with running trains on the "national network" and is allowed to subsidize them with Congressional funding. ...

So Amtrak absolutely could start a new LD train between any endpoints if the train is profitable, or if the net costs are covered by an outside source. If Amtrak wants to start a new *federally subsidized* LD train, however, it has to use the same endpoints as the existing trains.

...which means that Amtrak can legally start a federally subsidized Broadway Limited, or North Coast Hiawatha, or Silver Palm, just in case anyone was wondering. I think this may have been written this way deliberately.

Thanks, Nathanael, for the info to rescue me! LOL.

I was trying to warn some enthusiasts that when we draw our imaginary new routes, preferably they should not end in Houston, or El Paso or Cheyenne, or Winnipeg, because those were not "endpoints" on the date named, and probably Atlanta wasn't either. So to get the federal subsidy, stick to the tried and true endpoints. Of course, Congress made the law, and Congress could change it.

By the definition of past service, Houston should be OK (Lone Star).

 

[neroden]

It was "endpoints served as of 2008" if I remember correctly, which shuts out Houston. But as I say, this restriction is strictly for trains receiving federal subsidy; if Amtrak can get any operating deficit funded by states or cities, anything's possible.