News on daily Sunset (incl older east of NOL discussion)

[zephyr17]

The 750 mile limit applies to everything, new and old. The only exception is the NEC. The whole country gets to pay for that.

 

[trainviews]

The 750 mile limit applies to everything, new and old. The only exception is the NEC. The whole country gets to pay for that.

Yes and no. The 750 mile rule applies to operating subsidy only, and the NEC needs none of that.

Capital investments is of course a whole other story, but there's no 750 mile rule here, whether it applies to renewing track, new rolling stock or whatever. The difference is that the NEC has an (insufficient) appropriation in the yearly Amtrak budget for investments, while this is very small for the rest of the system, which instead relies on states and random stimulus or petty TIGER grants.

 

[zephyr17]

The NEC was specifically exempted in the legislation in any case, even if it ran at a deficit on the "above the rail" operating expenses. And money is money regardless of how you classify it. The NEC doesn't generate enough revenue to cover it's capital and infrastructure maintenance needs and so requires a subsidy and a pretty big one. To cover its real loss on its real costs.

If California and Washington owned tracks, with all maintenance paid for by federal subsidy, and all our rolling stock paid for by federal subsidy, and could build ridership and with frequent, reliable service on its own infrastructure, the corridor service such as Santa Barbara-Los Angeles-San Diego or Portland-Seattle-Vancouver could probably get in the black, too. On paper.

 

[Paulus]

The Federal capital grants for the NEC are a result of 70 years of deferred maintenance. It covers more than enough to to pay for the normal upkeep of its trackage, a figure which is already included in the NEC route operating expenses.

 

[neroden]

The Federal capital grants for the NEC are a result of 70 years of deferred maintenance.

We have more than 70 years deferred maintenance on the New York Central mainline, but it's still in the grubby little hands of CSX.

 

[CHamilton]

Commission wants Amtrak rolling along Coast again http://ow.ly/OxEeX

 

[Caesar La Rock]

^

If the political environment is favorable (even then stuff does happen) in a few more years, I might be more enthusiastic about that.

 

[nshvlcat]

Does anyone have a more recent update concerning this topic?

 

[CHamilton]

Does anyone have a more recent update concerning this topic?

There have been several positive press reports stemming from the June 17 hearing, but nothing further that I've seen. If you're on Facebook, you may want to follow Friends of Sunset Limited to Florida.

 

[Alex M.]

Everyone talks about the Sunset east going to central Florida. How practical would it be to run it on the old Crescent route via Mobile and Montgomery to Atlanta, provided they ever get around to building a new station there? Depending on the schedule, you could either combine it with the Crescent if you want to go further north, or run it as a separate train, or terminate it in Atlanta. Could such a service be feasible?

 

[keelhauled]

Orlando can service Superliner equipment. Atlanta can't service anything.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Everyone talks about the Sunset east going to central Florida. How practical would it be to run it on the old Crescent route via Mobile and Montgomery to Atlanta, provided they ever get around to building a new station there? Depending on the schedule, you could either combine it with the Crescent if you want to go further north, or run it as a separate train, or terminate it in Atlanta. Could such a service be feasible?

It could be a good route. But. Congress in its wisdom has limited where a new Amtrak route could go, and it ain't Atlanta.

A state-supported line could go anywhere the state support went, even Atlanta, if Georgia would build facilities there. Not happening.

And history tells us, a train that ran in the 1990s, briefly, very briefly, New Orleans-Biloxi-Mobile-Montgomery-Birmingham, planned to operate with help from the three states, couldn't get even two of them to keep the deal.

Deep Dixie states are still fighting for the Lost Cause. It hasn't been going well for them. But they can still stop a train.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

The Sunset's East is the only LD train that could be restored with a minimal amounts of money, even with new equipment. The stations on the route still exist (except for Mobile, which was torn down by CSX), they need to be brought up to ADA standards.

North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Desert Wind, Broadway Limited, Floridian, etc... have obstacles that need to be addressed before those routes could be brought back.

 

[user 1215]

Orlando can service Superliner equipment. Atlanta can't service anything.

How do you figure? They haven't had Superliner service there since Katrina 10 years ago. Even Viewliners aren't serviced there. Perhaps, work can be done at the Sanford Auto Train station....

 

[keelhauled]

Orlando can service Superliner equipment. Atlanta can't service anything.

How do you figure? They haven't had Superliner service there since Katrina 10 years ago. Even Viewliners aren't serviced there. Perhaps, work can be done at the Sanford Auto Train station....

Yes, I was referring to Sanford, which is only a few miles away and is the Auto Train's primary maintenance facility.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

The Sunset's East is the only LD train that could be restored with a minimal amounts of money, even with new equipment. ...

North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Desert Wind, Broadway Limited, Floridian, etc... have obstacles that need to be addressed before those routes could be brought back.

The Sunset East has been studied in some detail. Figures below are 2009ish, so adjust accordingly. But no realistic adjustment that I tried could make them look very good:

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/904/671/GulfCoastServicePlanReport.pdf

Let's take Option B. Daily service by extending the CONO to Florida, with estimated 96,100 additional passengers and an annual operating loss of about $11.7 million. Sorry. Farebox recovery of 44% on revenues of only $9.2 million vs costs of $20.9 million. The operating loss exceeds total revenues. That farebox recovery is low- to mid-range with other LD lines, but is that good enuff to take on in this political climate? There's probably lots more bang for the buck elsewhere.

Just to crank up and get going -- crew training, fixing stations to ADA standards, purchasing new (or at least scavenging around for more) equipment, at least $20 million for Positive Train Control thru the dark Panhandle stretch, etc. (These expenses on top of an unknown capital cost for upgrades to be negotiated with CSX, which is in no mood to add passenger train disruption to this line.)

Amtrak does not include a loss per passenger in its Executive Summary of this study.

I'll do it, because it's the number the haters seize on to attack all Amtrak routes. So every year, a $11.7 million loss divided by 96,100 added pax would cost $121 per rider.

In a nearby thread, we're discussing a proposal to add one train a day to the Empire Builder's route Chicago-Milwaukee-LaCrosse-St Paul, to run at an estimated loss per rider of $36. If Congress ever said, "Hey, let's give Amtrak $1 billion to improve service with more trains across its system … would you rank the Gulf Coast revival above the beginning of corridor service in the North Woods? (btw I'm Texas born n raised, n love me some Gulf Coast. But when I do the numbers here …)

Of course, 2009 numbers are out of date. Let's adjust them a bit. A daily Sunset West and a daily Sunset Shuttle San Antonio-NOLA would feed some riders onto the Sunset East. Population growth continues, especially along the Panhandle Coast. Tourist traffic to the Biloxi casinos is still growing. Let's say the Amtrak brand has improved since 2009 and it will improve more when 110-mph running begins on St Louis- and Detroit-Chicago corridors, and some shiny new cars enter the fleets. Gas is probably well over 2009 prices, tho I'm too lazy to look it up. Perhaps by the time the Sunset East starts up, the Palmetto will be the Silver Palm again, adding a third LD connection (sort of) at Jacksonville. To save $25 to $100 million in equipment costs, maybe rehabbed Horizon cars could be used here and on the San Antonio shuttle service. (Reusing Horizons could result in a bad winter-weather problem for the CONO, but maybe the rehabs can contain it.)

So let's be optimistic. With figures brought into the sunshine from a dark place, figures like, say a 50% increase to 140,000 pax a year, but costs up hardly at all, if that could slash the operating loss down to, say, $5 million a year, wow, the Sunset East would come in around $36 per rider, just like the single St Paul corridor train.

The reality lies between the wished-for $36 per rider loss and the estimated $121 loss of the study (in 2009 dollars unadjusted for inflation), but probably more to the $100 per rider end.

So priorities: Daily Cardinal, daily Sunset/Eagle Chicago-San Antonio-L.A. And I've read a lawyer could make a good case for breaking the Lake Shore Limited into two trains, not the two sections splitting at Albany as now. That could legally create a like-new Boston-Albany-Upstate NY-Cleveland-Chicago train to bring daylight service Cleveland-Chicago and a second frequency to the rest of the route.

Then let's start to think about other routes. I tend to agree with you that the North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Desert Wind, Broadway Limited, and Floridian have large obstacles. Maybe the Sunset East route is ahead of them all. But let's not get our hopes up.

Now back to that study again:

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/904/671/GulfCoastServicePlanReport.pdf

 

[jis]

The Sunset's East is the only LD train that could be restored with a minimal amounts of money, even with new equipment. The stations on the route still exist (except for Mobile, which was torn down by CSX), they need to be brought up to ADA standards.

North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Desert Wind, Broadway Limited, Floridian, etc... have obstacles that need to be addressed before those routes could be brought back.

What problems do you figure Broadway Limited faces, other than of course getting trackage on NS? But then it is not like Sunset East has access to trackage on CSX either. In other words I am not convinced that Sunset East is actually more viable than Broadway restored. A restored Broadway would any day blow the socks off revenue generated when compared to a potential Sunset East, simply because it is in what is today an almost saturated market with relatively large demand and that too at a generally higher price point on a per seat mile basis.

Frankly I think the priority of the through cars from Pennsylvanian to Capitol, which is essentially a restored Broadway is way higher than Sunset East and is way more viable too. As a matter of fact I think it is more likely that a Gulf Coast service will happen is if it is funded by the involved states and it will be done with no specific equipment connection with either the Sunset or the CONO.

 

[west point]

There are several population MMAs that do not have a hub Amtrak presence. Major ones are Atlanta, Dallas - Ft. Worth. Minor ones are Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Denver, Minneapolis - St. Paul, Indianapolis. Cincinnati, Pittsburgh. Cleveland, St Louis, Kansas City, Orlando, South Florida., Houston

within- 50 miles the Major ones have over 10M+ residences and minor 4M+. Most have a large population numbers outside the 50 miles as well Maybe not Phoenix SLC, Denver.

Nowhere does New Orleans - Jacksonville fit here

Anyway they will probably be the hubs in the future but not now due to political considerations. Notice how many are presently in the ® camp

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Louisiana hasn't had a visionary leader since Huey P. Long, more than 75 years ago. His successors have usually got the power and corruption part down, more or less, but never much get the vision.

If the Pelican State ever got a visionary leader, a helluva lot could be done with passenger rail.

#1. Hourly departures New Orleans-Baton Rouge. This corridor has been studied to death. All it needs is leadership and funding. Lots of funding.

#1-A. Reroute the City of New Orleans thru Baton Rouge. (Harder than it sounds. Probably require laying tracks north of town.)

#2. Many Pelican Coast trains a day on the Baton-Rouge-New Orleans-Biloxi-Mobile corridor. This three-state corridor would need support from two of the three states. If Alabama wouldn't pay its share, turn the train at Biloxi. If Mississippi wouldn't pay its share, follow the Downeaster formula, where the deadbeat state of New Hampshire won't contribute, but passengers making on/offs at New Hampshire stops pay a full, unsubsidized ticket price.

#2-A. Not Louisiana's problem, but if Alabama wants to extend a Pelican Coast corridor train Mobile-Montgomery-Birmingham-Atlanta, that would be a lot easier once the Baton Rouge-New Orleans-Mobile trains got running.

#2-B. Not Louisiana's problem, but restoring the Sunset East to Florida would be much easier once the Baton Rouge-New Orleans-Mobile trains got running, with connecting passengers from #3, #4, and #6 feeding that train or trains.

#3. Three or four trains a day on the Sunset Shuttle route New Orleans-Houston-San Antonio. If Texas will help support the Heartland Flyer Oklahoma City-Ft Worth, why wouldn't it help Houston-New Orleans? (And if it won't support San Antonio-Houston-New Orleans, that's Texas' problem, not Huey P. Long's.)

#4. Two or three or four trains a day New Orleans-Baton Rouge-Alexandria-Shreveport-Marshall, TX -Dallas-Ft Worth. (Shreveport is a stronger market than you think: Riverboat casinos serving the Dallas Metroplex.)

#5. Help support the once-proposed Crescent Star: Atlanta-Birmingham-Meridian, MS -Monroe, LA -Shreveport-Marshall, TX -Dallas Ft Worth.

#6. Build new connection Baton Rouge-Lafayette to strengthen Sunset Shuttle route, which becomes New Orleans-Baton Rouge-Lafayette-Beaumont-Houston-San Antonio.

It's a lot of trains. A network. But we know that ridership and revenues usually increase faster than costs when additional frequencies come on line. The more trains Louisiana would get, the lower the needed subsidies.

So where is a new Huey P Long when Louisiana needs him?

If you do see him, mention the sweetheart contracts, cost overruns, and other tasty aspects of this network plan that would surely please the powerful men in good suits who infest the Capitol in Baton Rouge.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Louisiana is like Texas when it comes to Political Leaders. We used to elect Giants and now we elect Pygmies!

 

[neroden]

The Sunset's East is the only LD train that could be restored with a minimal amounts of money, even with new equipment. The stations on the route still exist (except for Mobile, which was torn down by CSX), they need to be brought up to ADA standards.

North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Desert Wind, Broadway Limited, Floridian, etc... have obstacles that need to be addressed before those routes could be brought back.

Well, if you run the Broadway along the existing Capitol Limited route west of Pittsburgh, it would be by far the easiest to restore. Just to nitpick here. I think of the Broadway as providing Philadelphia-Chicago service, so I don't really care what route it takes from Pittsburgh to Chicago.

A restored Broadway would any day blow the socks of revenue generated when compared to a potential Sunset East, simply because it is in what is today an almost saturated market with relatively large demand and that too at a generally higher price point on a per seat mile basis.

Frankly I think the priority of the through cars from Pennsylvanian to Capitol, which is essentially a restored Broadway is way higher than Sunset East and is way more viable too.

There's quite a lot of indications that a restored Broadway (following the Pennsylvanian / Capitol Limited routes) would preform a lot better than the Capitol Limited. It would probably be in the "profitable before overhead" category along with the Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Auto Train, and Lake Shore Limited.

It's frankly stupid of Amtrak management to not have restored it already, at least via the "through cars" option.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

The Sunset's East is the only LD train that could be restored with a minimal amounts of money, even with new equipment. The stations on the route still exist (except for Mobile, which was torn down by CSX), they need to be brought up to ADA standards.

North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Desert Wind, Broadway Limited, Floridian, etc... have obstacles that need to be addressed before those routes could be brought back.

Well, if you run the Broadway along the existing Capitol Limited route west of Pittsburgh, it would be by far the easiest to restore. Just to nitpick here. I think of the Broadway as providing Philadelphia-Chicago service, so I don't really care what route it takes from Pittsburgh to Chicago.

A restored Broadway would any day blow the socks of revenue generated when compared to a potential Sunset East, simply because it is in what is today an almost saturated market with relatively large demand and that too at a generally higher price point on a per seat mile basis.

Frankly I think the priority of the through cars from Pennsylvanian to Capitol, which is essentially a restored Broadway is way higher than Sunset East and is way more viable too.

There's quite a lot of indications that a restored Broadway (following the Pennsylvanian / Capitol Limited routes) would preform a lot better than the Capitol Limited. It would probably be in the "profitable before overhead" category along with the Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Auto Train, and Lake Shore Limited.

It's frankly stupid of Amtrak management to not have restored it already, at least via the "through cars" option.

Getting off topic but All Aboard Ohio has suggested extending the Pennsylvanian to Chicago via Dearborn, taking advantage of the Wolverine route for which Amtrak does not pay usage fees (I believe it's their track). In addition to a direct route from PHL to CHI via PGH, it would also provide direct access from Dearborn and Ann Arbor to Pennsylvania and New York. The catch of course is you would need track between TOL and Dearborn. They also propose going to Youngstown which adds more expenses.

http://allaboardohio.org/2015/09/22/new-report-restore-passenger-rail/

 

[west point]

Sunset east ? Have many questions.

1. If it is extended as the SAS - HOU - NOL - JAX - Whatever with Horizons is the FRA going to require the stations east of NOL to have high level platforms ? Thinking of FRA ruling on Roanoke requiring a high platform. That requires station platforms served by movable platform ramps , a gauntlet track or separate platform tracks all to a high level platform.

2. Daily SAS - NOL Horizons will FRA try to require high level platforms ?

3. Extending City of NOL to JAX eliminates need for high level platforms. That would require Capitol to loose Superliners due to the failure of new Midwest hi-levels crush test.. Single levels short supply for capitol.

4. The question of loss per passenger is a false metric. Extreme example is loss of $5 per passenger on Hiawatha and $5 on the Auto Train . Average passenger stage length is much different.

5. IMO loss or profit per passenger mile is the proper metric.

Do not see any resolution for acquiring funds or changing Amtrak's various mandates. That is because of the at least 3 - way split in the House of Rep.

 

[haolerider]

I think this issue is dead on arrival!

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Sunset East ? ...

1. If it is extended as the SAS - HOU - NOL - JAX - Whatever with Horizons is the FRA going to require the stations east of NOL to have high level platforms ? Thinking of FRA ruling on Roanoke requiring a high platform.

.

2. Daily SAS - NOL Horizons will FRA try to require high level platforms ?

1. Trains from Roanoke will run on the NEC where almost all the platforms and all the trains are high level. So I don't see any implications beyond Roanoke. The Silvers at Jacksonville and the Crescent at New Orleans probably have high level platforms as well. But otherwise, Tallahassee, Mobile, Lafayette, Houston, San Antonio, and smaller Sunset Limited stations, there's no need for high level platforms at all.

2. Horizon cars have been serving corridors out of Chicago that do not use high level platforms. The Horizons would work well at any station that has used or is using bi-level Superliners, such as are used on the Sunset Limited.

...