News on daily Sunset (incl older east of NOL discussion)

[JoeBas]

No high level platforms in New Orleans.

 

[west point]

The implications of the FRA ADA Roanoke decision cannot be minimized. They indicate that all new ( and maybe restored service )will need level boarding to meet ADA requirements. This poster hopes not but who knows ?

 

[Eric S]

Isn't the new/proposed Roanoke station going to be located on a side track? So any high level platform would not interfere with any passing high/wide freight traffic.

Maybe I'm completely mistaken or confused, but I thought that was sort of the guiding principle, that level boarding was required if the station is located on a track that sees little freight traffic (or something to that effect). So, New Orleans, with dedicated station tracks, would potentially be required to convert a platform to high level. But another station located on the main track would not be required to have full train length level boarding.

 

[afigg]

The implications of the FRA ADA Roanoke decision cannot be minimized. They indicate that all new ( and maybe restored service )will need level boarding to meet ADA requirements. This poster hopes not but who knows ?

The issue with Roanoke is not new news. The US DOT issued its level boarding requirements for ADA compliance in 2011 and Amtrak has been been dealing with it since then. There are exceptions to the level boarding requirement starting with that if the platform is adjacent to an active freight railroad track, then the freight railroad clearance needs trump the high level or 15" ATR platform. Amtrak has been looking at mini-high platforms with retractable edges as an alternative for the stations in the east that get single level equipment that have platforms on the freight tracks. The Roanoke station will apparently be off on a side track or siding, so VA DRPT should not have been surprised by the requirement for a full length high level platform.

 

[jis]

The NEC was specifically exempted in the legislation in any case, even if it ran at a deficit on the "above the rail" operating expenses. And money is money regardless of how you classify it. The NEC doesn't generate enough revenue to cover it's capital and infrastructure maintenance needs and so requires a subsidy and a pretty big one. To cover its real loss on its real costs.

If California and Washington owned tracks, with all maintenance paid for by federal subsidy, and all our rolling stock paid for by federal subsidy, and could build ridership and with frequent, reliable service on its own infrastructure, the corridor service such as Santa Barbara-Los Angeles-San Diego or Portland-Seattle-Vancouver could probably get in the black, too. On paper.

Not with their current fares. They are way below above the rail cash positiveness.
The argument about including capital costs to determine cash flow positiveness on operations is completely specious. That sort of accounting is not used for any mode of transportation. It is only trotted out by those who want to make the point that NEC needs capital money, which 0f course everything else does too, and none of the above rail computations include any consideration of the capital that goes into the operations of it. Such gets included only in the form of trackage charges and depriciations, as is also done on the NEC.

 

[west point]

The 800 pound bear in the room on level boarding is for those stations that have both present superliners and single level trains. New Orleans, Chicago, LAX, etc. New stations cannot meet both types on a single platform requiring both levels. Another problem is what ever may happen with future trains or even equipment substitutions. .

WASH union station is an example of both. The rebuild plan has provision of all the upper level platforms to be high level + the future very lower level platforms if built. The present lower level will have both high and superliner levels for Capitol and VRE.

 

[PerRock]

The Sunset's East is the only LD train that could be restored with a minimal amounts of money, even with new equipment. The stations on the route still exist (except for Mobile, which was torn down by CSX), they need to be brought up to ADA standards.

North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Desert Wind, Broadway Limited, Floridian, etc... have obstacles that need to be addressed before those routes could be brought back.

Well, if you run the Broadway along the existing Capitol Limited route west of Pittsburgh, it would be by far the easiest to restore. Just to nitpick here. I think of the Broadway as providing Philadelphia-Chicago service, so I don't really care what route it takes from Pittsburgh to Chicago.

A restored Broadway would any day blow the socks of revenue generated when compared to a potential Sunset East, simply because it is in what is today an almost saturated market with relatively large demand and that too at a generally higher price point on a per seat mile basis.

Frankly I think the priority of the through cars from Pennsylvanian to Capitol, which is essentially a restored Broadway is way higher than Sunset East and is way more viable too.

There's quite a lot of indications that a restored Broadway (following the Pennsylvanian / Capitol Limited routes) would preform a lot better than the Capitol Limited. It would probably be in the "profitable before overhead" category along with the Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Auto Train, and Lake Shore Limited.

It's frankly stupid of Amtrak management to not have restored it already, at least via the "through cars" option.

Getting off topic but All Aboard Ohio has suggested extending the Pennsylvanian to Chicago via Dearborn, taking advantage of the Wolverine route for which Amtrak does not pay usage fees (I believe it's their track). In addition to a direct route from PHL to CHI via PGH, it would also provide direct access from Dearborn and Ann Arbor to Pennsylvania and New York. The catch of course is you would need track between TOL and Dearborn. They also propose going to Youngstown which adds more expenses.

http://allaboardohio.org/2015/09/22/new-report-restore-passenger-rail/

There is track there to do the run (NKP765 does it...) I can't tell who owns the line from TOL to Dearborn (the MDOT map doesn't give enough detail). But it looks like the line is run by CN or NS/CR. Essentially it runs up the CN from TOL to the Detroit area, then there is a jog over (and an almost complete turn-around) that uses NS or CR (two routings, a third could use CSX)

The other 2 lines running from TOL to the Michigan Line are the CSX line & the AA, The CSX line does connect to the MI Line, but would require running thru a factory & a reversing the rest of the way to Chicago; or installing a switch allowing the train to go in the correct direction; either way, not ideal. The Ann Arbor RR option is aligned much better for the trains to make the connection; however the connection in Ann Arbor between the two railroads has been out of commission for a very long time & would pretty much need to be completely replaced. Not to mention it is a very steep, very tight curve on a hill the train has to take. It also connects just west of all (bar one unlikely option) the ARB station options.

 

[jis]

Large terminal stations will tend to have separate platforms for single level high boarding and multi-level low boarding cars.

Chicago union Station is scheduled to get a pair of high level boarding platform tracks.

Miami Central will have high level for AAF and low level for Tri-Rail.

For smaller stations the least common denominator platform will be it, with lifts providing boarding of wheen chairs onto high level trains.

 

[neroden]

The 800 pound bear in the room on level boarding is for those stations that have both present superliners and single level trains. New Orleans, Chicago, LAX, etc. New stations cannot meet both types on a single platform requiring both levels. Another problem is what ever may happen with future trains or even equipment substitutions. .

WASH union station is an example of both. The rebuild plan has provision of all the upper level platforms to be high level + the future very lower level platforms if built. The present lower level will have both high and superliner levels for Capitol and VRE.

This is going to be easy for the stations you named because they have lots of platforms. Chicago will have four high-level platform tracks and the rest low-level. New Orleans has four or five double-sided platforms; one will be high-level. Los Angeles will have some high-level platforms and some low-level platforms.

What's problematic is stations like Cleveland and Pittsburgh. There is a specific rule for what to do at those stations (platform at the lower boarding level, with lifts), but honestly it would be a lot easier if the Capitol Limited switched to high-floor equipment. These are not small cities.

 

[neroden]

I can't tell who owns the line from TOL to Dearborn (the MDOT map doesn't give enough detail). But it looks like the line is run by CN or NS/CR.

Why yes.... in fact, you have a choice of:

CSX to Wayne

Conrail double-tracked to West Detroit

Grand Trunk Western (CN) single track on the west side of the Conrail tracks

Grand Trunk Western (CN) single track on the east side of the Conrail tracks

...with some other variants available as well.

http://knorek.com/RR/SAA/SAAIndex.htm

There's plenty of track available, from multiple hosts. There's even room for more tracks in the ROWs and this is all cheap land. It's just a matter of political will. The railroads are very tangled in the Detroit area with lots of unnecessary diamond crossings, and frankly need a project a bit like CREATE in Chicago to sort them out in any case.

 

[DSS&A]

Hi,

Michigan DOT is currently performing a Phase 1 Environmental Assessment that analyzes route options from Chicago Union Station to Porter, IN. to add additional train frequencies between those two locations. The current information on the analysis can be found online.

 

[jis]

Hi,

Michigan DOT is currently performing a Phase 1 Environmental Assessment that analyzes route options from Chicago Union Station to Porter, IN. to add additional train frequencies between those two locations. The current information on the analysis can be found online.

Could you perhaps post a pointer to the online location where it can be found? Thanks.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Michigan DOT is currently performing a Phase 1 Environmental Assessment that analyzes route options from Chicago Union Station to Porter, IN. to add additional train frequencies between those two locations. The current information on the analysis can be found online.

Could you perhaps post a pointer to the online location where it can be found? Thanks.

This is one good site I watch:

http://greatlakesrail.org/

And it's been updated! The first page no longer reads that the draft EIS will be finished Summer of 2015. It now says "The Final EIS/ROD is targeted for completion by the end of 2015.The Service Development Plan is also underway and will be completed by early 2016."

Click "Take the Tour" bottom left of the home page.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

The Sunset's East is the only LD train that could be restored with a minimal amounts of money, even with new equipment. The stations on the route still exist (except for Mobile, which was torn down by CSX), they need to be brought up to ADA standards.

North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Desert Wind, Broadway Limited, Floridian, etc... have obstacles that need to be addressed before those routes could be brought back.

I would say the biggest hole in the national LD system is the Sunset East. Think about it. You have the two largest states in the South and two of the four (soon to be three?) largest states in the country. Try going from Orlando to Houston on Amtrak or Miami to Dallas on Amtrak or Tampa to San Antonio. Yes, the old Sunset East wouldn't have connected all of them directly but at least you have opportunities to connect.

How would you go from anywhere in Florida to anywhere on Texas now? I think that's a big problem.

 

[Palmetto]

If people in the area make enough noise, we may see a return of this train. Is there anybody along the Gulf States that's raising any dust on the issue?

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

If people in the area make enough noise, we may see a return of this train. Is there anybody along the Gulf States that's raising any dust on the issue?

Did they ride it in the past? Was Amtrak satisfied with the ridership/revenue? I mean if Katrina hadn't happened, it would probably have not been canceled.

 

[jis]

My guess is that we will never see the reinstatement of the Sunset Limited East. What we might see at some point is the introduction of what used to be the L&N Gulf Wind - a New Orleans to Jacksonville service with possible extension to Orlando. But the local states will have to step up with funding for it, and I don;t at present see the level of enthusiasm for such in Florida that would divert scarce funding from other rail projects over the next 5 or 6 years.

 

[Palmetto]

That was my real question, I suppose. There does not seem to be any signifcant enthusiasm along the route for a return of passenger train service to it.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If people in the area make enough noise, we may see a return of this train. Is there anybody along the Gulf States that's raising any dust on the issue?

Here in San Antonio we amended the city charter to require voter approval before any proposal of passenger rail can use any public land and/or public money. Is that noisy enough for you?

 

[jis]

That was my real question, I suppose. There does not seem to be any signifcant enthusiasm along the route for a return of passenger train service to it.

Well, I think there may be a bit more enthusiasm at its western end than the eastern end at present I was told by a reliable source that certain Alabama and Mississippi congresscritters have asked Amtrak to explore the possibility of restoring service between New Orleans and mobile. Of course words ar cheap. The question is are they able to back it up with an ap[appropriate appropriation matching the numbers that Amtrak (or anyone else that is credible for that matter) comes up with.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

That was my real question, I suppose. There does not seem to be any signifcant enthusiasm along the route for a return of passenger train service to it.

Well, I think there may be a bit more enthusiasm at its western end than the eastern end at present I was told by a reliable source that certain Alabama and Mississippi congresscritters have asked Amtrak to explore the possibility of restoring service between New Orleans and mobile. Of course words ar cheap. The question is are they able to back it up with an ap[appropriate appropriation matching the numbers that Amtrak (or anyone else that is credible for that matter) comes up with.

Don't they need a station in Mobile?

 

[jis]

I am sure they need all sorts of things including rebuilding of stations or reacquiring of facilities that have since been re-purposed. that is why a more upto date cost estimate is necessary before anyone can do anything about it.

 

[neroden]

That was my real question, I suppose. There does not seem to be any signifcant enthusiasm along the route for a return of passenger train service to it.

From Mobile to New Orleans, there's been quite a lot of local government activism. But not enough to shake loose money from Alabama, Mississippi, or Louisiana. The state governments are uninterested -- which is probably a dynamic in these states, where the state capitols are in the interior and the Gulf Coast is culturally distinct. Upstate/downstate divides, maybe? I don't think the Gulf Coast will have any luck getting money from those state governments.

 

[Palmetto]

If people in the area make enough noise, we may see a return of this train. Is there anybody along the Gulf States that's raising any dust on the issue?

Here in San Antonio we amended the city charter to require voter approval before any proposal of passenger rail can use any public land and/or public money. Is that noisy enough for you?

No.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Here in San Antonio we amended the city charter to require voter approval before any proposal of passenger rail can use any public land and/or public money. Is that noisy enough for you?

So off topic but why? Don't you elect city leaders? Why amended the charter? Seem a bit over the top. Someone working on a solution for a issue that does not exist? Or was it back by the local newspaper, radio, and TV stations. (Position Ads cost money.)