North East Corridor (NEC) speeds, new stations and state of repair

[JuniusLivonius]

It would be interesting to know the equipment of each snag that has happened. Seems that it is a large number of NJ Transit trains have been involved. Now were most of the snags 10 or12 car EMUs? Could it be 5 or 6 PANs set up some kind of standing wave that would enable a snag? Could be that would happen at only certain conditions? Too few incidents with too many variables. Wire Temp, wire spacing,, PAN speeds, number of PANS, PAN pressure on wire, equipment, trains on other tracks,

Whether or not you are correct, this is good reasoning.

Remember the Arrow III set that broke down at Metuchen on April 15th? The same train somewhere in the last 3 weeks (by schedule, not trainset, but still Arrow III EMUs) broke one or more pantographs somewhere near New Brunswick but with no apparent catenary damage. I do not remember what day and I don't feel like finding the audio clip.

Another Arrow III set had pantograph trouble in Metropark in the morning on May 22nd.

So I would not be surprised if Arrow IIIs are causing the most problems, but the catenary could just ready to fail and Arrow sets are more likely to finish the job.

I’m sure this has been covered repeatedly and I’m sorry for asking again, but with this mornings NEC delay I was curious—what portion of the NEC actually has constant tension catenary? I know the Boston / CT area does and the Brunswick / Princeton area does, but how about other areas on the NEC around NYC?

With all the track work going on the last 2 decades, have they been installing it piecemeal or keeping the old designs (ie will the portal north and areas outside the new Hudson tunnels in NJ use the new or old design?) Can you have sections of constant mixed with variable or is that a disaster?

Metro North New Haven Line is all Constant Tension. A short segment of the Hell Gate Line adjacent to what used to be Shell interlocking is Constant Tension. Other than that the only other Constant Tension in the NYC suburban area is the new Constant Tension in sections between Jersey Avenue and Hamilton on the NEC in NJ, and NJTransit Jersey Shore Line between Matawan (exclusive) and Long Branch.

I think Amtrak has generally decided to stick with variable tension if speeds do not exceed 130mph in a section. So I would guess that all the new/modified trackage between New York Penn and Newark will not be Constant Tension, including Portal Bridge(s), new Sawtooth Bridge, new Swift interlocking and new layout of Secacus Jct.

But of course, we will know for sure only when it actually is installed. The posts can be used interchangeably for Constant Tension or not, so just looking at the posts by itself does not settle the issue.

In New Jersey on Amtrak lines, only the 7 or so miles from Midway to CP Clark are constant tension. The catenary from County to Midway was improved, allowing 145MPH on the inner tracks save for the curves, but not totally replaced. They use some sort of different hangar or whatever.

You can take a look here:


36:54 County interlocking (west) - Change to "different hangar"
42:00 Midway interlocking (west) - Constant tension begins just after
46:00 CP Clark - Constant tension ends before this; note the unused poles and concrete foundations for the next few miles that haven't been used or completed yet

It was NJT Mechanical Department which forgot to maintain the return current brushes which caused overheating of a bearing as all that current was trying to flow through the bearing instead of the normal path through the brush, causing a bearing to overheat and fail causing a derailment holding up traffic for a day, which is a bit more serious than some catenary pulled down by a broken pantograph, which also NJT specializes in.

Can that put a dangerous potential on the car body?

 

[thefirewarde]

Looks like they did it again today!

This one seems to be power infrastructure, not NJT trying to floss their pantographs.There's also an adjacent fire (possibly unrelated but inconvenient) which I'm sure helps with repairs.

 

[Amtrak25]

Friday AM rush

Rail service is suspended into and out of Penn Station New York due to AMTRAK overhead wire issues in Penn Station New York. Midtown Direct trains are being diverted to Hoboken. NJ TRANSIT rail tickets and passes are being crossed-honored by NJ TRANSIT and private carrier buses and PATH at Newark Penn, Hoboken and 33rd Street, New York. Customers should visit njtransit.com/ABC for alternate service information.

 

[jis]

In New Jersey on Amtrak lines, only the 7 or so miles from Midway to CP Clark are constant tension. The catenary from County to Midway was improved, allowing 145MPH on the inner tracks save for the curves, but not totally replaced. They use some sort of different hangar or whatever.

You can take a look here:


36:54 County interlocking (west) - Change to "different hangar"
42:00 Midway interlocking (west) - Constant tension begins just after
46:00 CP Clark - Constant tension ends before this; note the unused poles and concrete foundations for the next few miles that haven't been used or completed yet

Yup You are absolutely correct. They actually have the funding now to complete the work all the way to Fair, but it is happening in its own sweet time.

Can that put a dangerous potential on the car body?

The resistance through the axle and bearing is low enough to not create any significant potential, though it is high enough to generate significant heat when that enormous amount of current flows through it. The brushes are there to provide an even lower resistance path.

 

[Barb Stout]

Friday AM rush

Rail service is suspended into and out of Penn Station New York due to AMTRAK overhead wire issues in Penn Station New York. Midtown Direct trains are being diverted to Hoboken. NJ TRANSIT rail tickets and passes are being crossed-honored by NJ TRANSIT and private carrier buses and PATH at Newark Penn, Hoboken and 33rd Street, New York. Customers should visit njtransit.com/ABC for alternate service information.

I got onto the Amtrak website for another reason and saw that notice in a big red box and I also noticed that the chatbox said "Chatbusy". I haven't ever seen that before on any website. Do you think there is a correlation between the disrupted service at Penn station and the "Chatbusy" box?

 

[xzperu42]

Amtrak was blaming NJT (or perhaps this is another problem!)

Service Temporarily Disrupted at New York Penn Station
June 21, 2024 10:00 AM

Empire Service Trains are currently suspended between Yonkers (YNY) and New York Penn Station (NYP) due to reports of a disabled New Jersey Transit Train blocking the tracks at New York Penn Station. Crews are working to remove the disabled commuter train off the tracks. As of now, operations are expected to resume at approximately 12:00 pm. All other services are reportedly experiencing delays due to the disabled New Jersey Transit blocking New York Penn Station tracks. Trains are able to get through, but delays should be expected. We will provide more updates as we receive them from personnel on the scene. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and thank you for your patience as we work through this unexpected situation.

 

[Amtrak25]

Some NJT honcho on Reddit said "Amtrak is deflecting" - it was sagging wires. Perhaps. How come SEPTA with all their MU's doesn't tear down catenary all around Philly with the same ancient catenary system ? He and someone else gave me down votes when I brought up that inconvenient observation. Another is that NJT abandoned service on the Waterfront Connection to Hoboken, which is another escape valve for passengers for which NJT shot itself in the rump after Covid..

The ambient temperature was around 71 this morning. If wires were sagging there, I suspect covering up that open cut west of Penn Station with buildings was not a good idea since the hot air has no way to rise to cool the interlocking off.

 

[jis]

There was a time when NJT used to get awards for being the best transit agency in the days of Warsh. It has come down a long way baby.

 

[Amtrak25]

There was a time when NJT used to get awards for being the best transit agency in the days of Warsh. It has come down a long way baby.

Take that with a grain of salt. Didn't they get the APTA award again last year ? Like getting a Gold Star on your middle school paper that got a D.

 

[xzperu42]

I’m taking the Lake Shore Limited tomorrow and was planing to take NJT to NYP tomorrow… it seems NJT has rerouted Midtown Direct trains to Hoboken, so I guess I can take PATH from there if that happens. Really annoying to have to worry about this, but after 3 disasters this week…

 

[Amtrak25]

Take a bus. You have until 3pm to make it to PABT, then a 10 minute walk south. If you have time to kill in NYC, walk over to Andrews Coffee Shop at 7th Ave & 35th Street for a nice slow lunch.

I am going to Montreal by bus in July, which leaves at 1140am. I have to seriously consider taking Suburban Transit out of Princeton that AM rush hour.

 

[jis]

Take that with a grain of salt. Didn't they get the APTA award again last year ? Like getting a Gold Star on your middle school paper that got a D.

Yeah, that is there too. I wonder what strings they had to pull to get that.

I’m taking the Lake Shore Limited tomorrow and was planing to take NJT to NYP tomorrow… it seems NJT has rerouted Midtown Direct trains to Hoboken, so I guess I can take PATH from there if that happens. Really annoying to have to worry about this, but after 3 disasters this week…

If NJT can reliably take you to Hoboken then you could take PATH from there to herald Square and walk a block west to NY Penn from there. Leave plenty of time to work around kinks in the half broken transit system around New York though.

 

[xzperu42]

Was also considering taking the Raritan valley line because it is diesel
(but then parking becomes an issue)

 

[Amtrak25]

Was also considering taking the Raritan valley line because it is diesel
(but then parking becomes an issue)

PATH is only running every 40 minutes on weekends from NWK.

 

[xzperu42]

Yes, I’m aware and I imagine it would be packed, but I’m planning to arrive very early. Fortunately I will be able to enjoy the lounge at NYP.

Currently still planning to take the Gladstone branch.

 

[AFS1970]

I am planning on taking NJT fora brief trip tomorrow morning, I didn't see any delays on the schedule app.

 

[Amtrak25]

Tomorrow is another day. Check back. Every day is a new adventure.

 

[daybeers]

They actually have the funding now to complete the work all the way to Fair, but it is happening in its own sweet time

Sigh...that project has been such a boondoggle.

PATH is only running every 40 minutes on weekends from NWK.

Absolute joke of a system.

 

[MARC Rider]

Sigh...that project has been such a boondoggle.

The word "boondoggle" implies that the project wasn't necessary. I would think that switching to constant-tension catenary is a worthwhile objective. The problem seems to be that the project was (is?) poorly managed.

 

[jis]

The word "boondoggle" implies that the project wasn't necessary. I would think that switching to constant-tension catenary is a worthwhile objective. The problem seems to be that the project was (is?) poorly managed.

I agree. The project is not a boondoggle. It is a very necessary project that was poorly executed. One of its Chief Engineers got fired due to well proven corruption on the job. And somehow the contractor that was hired to drill the foundations for the poles failed to dig things vertically etc. There were lots of weird problems on the civil engineering side of things for as yet not fully explained reasons. but hopefully that bunch of Keystone Kops are behind us now.

For those of that recall how it came to be funded, one fine morning Amtrak was told to come up with a project within a few weeks that was shovel ready and important and could absorb $450 Million. Well they met those criteria. What they failed to meet was the full delivery of what they said the project was going to do. This was when FRA was running against the clock to commit the fund before it was potentially rescinded by then a more hostile Congress. So it has as much to do with how broken our federal project management and funding processes are as anything else.

The Constant Tension Catenary portion was a part of a much larger project of which another part - refurbishment of A Interlocking of Penn Station was not even touched. But what was achieved is complete upgrade of the power delivery system and capacity between New Brunswick and Trenton, including addition of capacity in the form of additional static converters. Complete re cabling of the signaling and control system making it much more resilient to natural calamities, and also complete reconstruction of the tracks from ground up. And partial completion of the Constant Tension Catenary.

But honestly, I have never come across a situation where this amount of money was spent to argue about why not to do CT Catenary for part of the segment that was supposed to get CT Catenary. But such things are bound to happen when everything is a special case turnkey project with no established broader plan to staff up an organization and keep it going beyond a few years. With the NEC Commission now the situation is probably significantly better.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Coincidentally, the Odd Lots podcast by Bloomberg has recently covered two shortages in electrical components. I wonder if it's affecting these projects. Various stories on Oddlots would be of interest to people here, but the two on components were:

• "Lots More on America's Electrical Components Crisis. Why can't you buy a switchgear?" April 12, 2024.
  A developer of strip-mall-sized commercial buildings has to go to extraordinary lengths to find switchgear, something at the service to the building. It's his major problem.
  
  
• "CoreWeave's CSO on the Business of Building AI Datacenters. What are the real constraints to growth?" July 21, 2024.
  At the end is a discussion about some giant transformer or something that takes a year to "cure" after manufacture.

Consolidation, and the decimation of G.E., plays a role. Also, hoarding.

 

[George Harris]

But honestly, I have never come across a situation where this amount of money was spent to argue about why not to do CT Catenary for part of the segment that was supposed to get CT Catenary. But such things are bound to happen when everything is a turnkey project with no established broader plan to staff up an organization and keep it going beyond a few years. With the NEC Commission now the situation is probably significantly better.

I have never understood why all overhead is not converted to constant tension as quickly as possible, nor why the extreme costs to do so are consistently proclaimed. That use of constant tension is the far better way is a no-brainer, and should not be excessively expensive, as your fixed points that have to carry the horizontal forces in fixed catenary would instead of carrying a force that would vary considerably with temperature are now carrying a constant load with the thermal expansion and contraction in the wire being absorbed by weights going up and down along the pole. Anyone that can tell me what I am missing, have at it.

 

[thefirewarde]

I have never understood why all overhead is not converted to constant tension as quickly as possible, nor why the extreme costs to do so are consistently proclaimed. That use of constant tension is the far better way is a no-brainer, and should not be excessively expensive, as your fixed points that have to carry the horizontal forces in fixed catenary would instead of carrying a force that would vary considerably with temperature are now carrying a constant load with the thermal expansion and contraction in the wire being absorbed by weights going up and down along the pole. Anyone that can tell me what I am missing, have at it.

I've heard PRR catenary has a longer spacing between supports than modern installations, so there's digging. And enough utilities are in the ground/buried surprises that any time you get the construction yellow fiber finders out (aka backhoe or excavator) it's bound to get complicated. This leads to missing timelines and blowing out budgets.

I'm sure that's not the only reason, but it definitely doesn't help.

 

[daybeers]

The word "boondoggle" implies that the project wasn't necessary. I would think that switching to constant-tension catenary is a worthwhile objective. The problem seems to be that the project was (is?) poorly managed.

That's true; I didn't mean to imply that the project was unnecessary. It definitely was mismanaged. I appreciated the explanation from Jis.

 

[west point]

Am not CAT engineer. Have heard that PRR straight track spacing between line poles was 180 feet maximum between cross support or hangers. For whatever reason constant tension standards appear to be max spacing 120 track feet. If all the PRR line poles were good (most are not due to burying steel poles directly in ground) then a a pole between original PRR poles would suffice.

Potholing for concrete casinos to support new poles may be very expensive.

It would appear that the amount of tension might to be higher for each increment of higher speed, As well hanger spacing from the traveler to contact wire may need to be closer? Another is the expected wire temperature extremes causing wire expansion from low to high + a fudge factor. All this to reduce sag of the contact wire with train PANs.