overweight wheelchair

[jojo144]

I see that the limitations on a wheelchair are 31 inches wide and 600 pounds. My wheelchair (a Permobil M. 300 with a corpus 3G rehab seat) is 26 inches wide, so that's no problem. However, although this wheelchair is a standard power wheelchair, it's very heavy. 430 pounds WITHOUT the driver. Now, since I weigh about 220 pounds we have a total of 650 pounds. Does anyone know whether this weight is likely to be a problem? (I am reserved for a round trip from Emeryville California to Seattle Washington in a superliner accessible bedroom).

Regards,

Joe

 

[Alice]

I think you'll be okay on the Superliner. The ramps are real sturdy. Some trains use a lift instead of a ramp. The portable ones with cranks are also real sturdy. What I'm saying is I expect the rated capacity of these devices is over 600 lbs, but I'm not positive.

Ramps are stored onboard and lifts are at the station. If you can, I think you should go to Emeryville and ask to see their lift and look yourself at the rated capacity. If the lift has a rated capacity more than the minimum of 600 lbs, then they are required to allow people up to the capacity even if more than 600 lbs.

How well do you transfer independently? An alternative would be transfer to a manual chair for the ramp or lift, then transfer back into your chair once on board. Both EMY and King Street should have manual chairs available. Staff will help push their manual chairs but staff will not help you transfer.

You'd want to be sure to disable the electronic controls so they have to manually push your power chair as those controls are so sensitive and people not used to them are likely to cause a collision and damage. Much better if you are traveling with someone who can take care of that, or maybe you can get a remote so you can drive your power chair from elsewhere.

How are you planning on getting around in Seattle?

If I were you, I'd be complaining to Permobil about the weight they are selling. ADA standards are 600 lbs, this is not a new rule, that chair is designed for big people, up to 300 lbs. At a minimum they should have told you before purchase, "This is a great chair for travel and distance and adventure, but you may not be able to use it on any public transportation and you'll be limited to higher end vehicles and lifts in your own vehicle."

Since Permobil is buying up so many other wheelchair companies, we are going to get asked this question more and more. So please, after you find out the rated capacity of lift, ramp, etc., please post them for the future, and also please post your experience. My experience is staff at EMY are less than helpful, hope you do better, I usually drive to Martinez when I want bay area help.

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

The lifts I have done maintence on were certified at 600 pounds. With the safty margins you should be fine. What usualy is the problem is turning radius. With some chairs backing on is saffer and better than driving on forward, even though the manufacture recomends forward.

 

[jojo144]

Thanks for the replies.
It never occurred to me that weight would be an issue in such transportation situations. The Permobil M. 300 with corpus 3G seat is not really a bariatric wheelchair (the maximum user weight is specified by Permobil as 300 pounds) and, I was completely surprised after purchase to find that the weight of the unloaded wheelchair was 430 pounds! (My previous wheelchair was a quickie freestyle F11, also with a rehab seat, and an unloaded weight of about 275 pounds if I remember correctly.)
I will call up the Emeryville and Seattle Amtrak stations to check on the weight capacity of their lifts/ramps and I will post back here with my results.
Transferring is not an option without something like a hoyer lift. On the train I will sleep in the wheelchair, which I have done before and is quite comfortable.
If there is no other solution to the 600 pound limit I could have my traveling companions remove one or both batteries (about 45 pounds apiece). A bit of a pita.
In Seattle we will rent a wheelchair van (I don't drive) and drive up to Leavenworth where we will spend a few days participating in Oktoberfest and visiting relatives in the vicinity. Then we drive back to Seattle, have the van picked up at the train station and head on back South.
Thanks again
Joe

 

[Alice]

Sounds like you have everything in order.

The way the lifts work is they roll it into position, you roll up a side ramp and turn 90 degrees to face the train. Then the operator cranks up the platform. How hard he/she has to push that handle depends on how heavy you are. When you are up to the right height, they jiggle the lift with you on it to get it in the exact right position. How easy that is depends on your weight and the surface. (My opinion is the wheels on the lifts are too dinky to be used on anything rougher than a basketball court.) Then they fiddle with some cables to deploy the bridge into the car. Since the boarding platform is not exactly smooth and level, chances are the bridge doesn't lay exactly flat in the train's doorway, but it'll be close enough for your chair. (There are some other steps, this is a simplification.)

So you see that the ideal person to operate the lift is someone who does it all the time (so they can put the lift in the right place before you get on it), who is also strong. The good part is everybody there wants to get you on, and quickly, so both land-based and train-based crew will help even if it is not technically their job.

I looked and you'll have lifts (not ramps) at both Emeryville and King Street. Here is a video of a similar lift. I think the door into a Superliner is a little wider than the door shown in the video.

 

[CHamilton]

NARP posted this link on Facebook today.

Amtrak is honoring the 25th anniversary of the landmark Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) signed into law on July 26, 1990. With input from station owners and stakeholders from the disability community, and state and federal officials, America's Railroad has taken many significant steps to improve the travel experience for passengers with disabilities, from trip planning, to purchasing tickets, to station access, to on-board services. See how they do it here: http://bit.ly/1Vbcsto

 

[HenryK]

The last few posts about wheelchair lifts have been very enlightening, and thanks to their posters. I, too, had wondered about the apparent waste of time and money with different lifts over the years, but now have a much better understanding of the dynamics. Come to think of it, when you consider that people in wheelchairs never went to those stations before the "wasteful" lifts were installed, the problem now is publicizing the existence of the those lifts. If you build it, they will come.

 

[BCL]

I've looked at the warnings on the lifts on the California Cars. Those definitely state that they're only certified up to 600 lbs.

 

[Alice]

I've looked at the warnings on the lifts on the California Cars. Those definitely state that they're only certified up to 600 lbs.

Those are power lifts supported at only the two corners against the train, and I wouldn't push them. The portable lifts have the platform supported at all four corners through the entire procedure so I think any failure would not cause it to fall. However, I think a failure would cause Joe to miss his train while the station master figures things out, so should still be avoided.

Joe, I see you have a few months before your trip. How about a joyride trial, Starlight one way, something else the other way? Go have lunch somewhere. The Calif Zephyr uses the same lift.

Henry, you are so right. I still consider Amtrak to be something I ride for fun, not for transportation. If I absolutely have to be somewhere on time, I drive, even to places no sane person drives like San Francisco. The gatherings are interesting because we use local transit. When Alan is working out the agenda, he looks at each station where we'll be stopping and checks accessibility. In some places, he has to have backup plans due to frequent elevator outages. Despite all that, now and then there is a hiccup.

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

The Lift that Alice provided the Video is similar to the ones I have serviced. In failure those lifts lock. So no way it drops. I can not remember the actual coponnent rating, but the Certified rating is 600 pounds. At 600 pounds the operastor(crank) needs to be able th handle 10 pounds of fource, both up and down. I think that model uses a 10:1 Safty factor so if that is correct it will actually hold 6,000 bounds.

If you want to find out more search for Railroad ADA lift. That is how I got the info about the operation, maintence, and repair for tthe lift used bu the Nevada southern RR Museaum.

 

[jojo144]

Update:
Thanks to everyone for the many helpful suggestions. Unfortunately, I'm still struggling to find out whether I will be able to board and exit the train without problems.

I talked to the station manager in Emeryville and he said that the starlight express used ramps carried on board to connect to the platform and that the elevation change was only 10 inches or so (superliner floor is about 10 inches above platform level). He was unable to tell me the design load of the ramps nor was he able to tell me who I could call to find out.

The Amtrak 800-number helpline gave me the number of the Seattle station as (206) 382-4125 but I have been calling that number all day and nobody picks up.

Unfortunately, the suggestion to try it out won't work for me. I have almost no use of my arms and legs and I can't travel unaccompanied. Also, I live in Menlo Park which is on the San Francisco Peninsula across the Bay from Emeryville (30 miles or so?). Besides, unless I went all the way to Seattle and back I wouldn't know the situation at that end.

So, I'm still trying to find out
1) what is the design load of the lift or ramp used at the Seattle station?
2) what is the design load of the portable ramps that the starlight express carries on board and uses in Emeryville?

As always, all suggestions are appreciated.
Regards,
Joe

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

I didn't read the entire document but I believe the answer to ramp ratinge are in this document http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/2010ADAStandards/2010ADAstandards.htm

 

[PerRock]

I'm not sure if this is the exact one Amtrak uses, but it is very similar. They all have a maximum capacity of 800lbs.

https://www.handiramp.com/singlefoldramps.htm

Amtrak's website states that they can take a total of 600lbs for a wheelchair & person; This should mean that all their equipment can handle at least that, if not more.

peter

 

[PVD]

Generally, if a lift is rated above 600 lbs by the manufacturer, the carrier has to use it up to its rated capacity as long as no other provisions come into play (such as opening sizes or clearances or floor capacity of the vehicle) 600 lbs is the minimum standard for the ADA required lifts. Nobody can be forced to operate a lift (nor should they) above its rated capacity, to do so would open up a major liability exposure. I always ordered type IA ladders for my teams, they were 300 lb rated as opposed to type I at 250 lbs. Never had to hassle with the safety managers. Not a lot of organizations will spend the extra money for the higher payload capacity lift where it is not required.

 

[BCL]

I looked up the data on the MobiLift TX lift that several stations use, and they say it's load tested up to 3000 lbs. It would seem that the main issue would be the effort since they're hand cranked.

http://www.adaptivelifts.com/wheelchair_lift_tx.html

Some video shot of one, but it's not show in action. The label with the 600 lbs limit is clearly visible.



The Seattle station disclaimer is the typical one ("Wheelchair lift is a platform-mounted lift for loading passengers from low platforms onto trains that do not have onboard ramps.").

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=am/am2Station/Station_Page&code=SEA

Here's a stock photo of one being used on the East Coast (obviously it's not going to have to go this high on Superliner cars):

For reference, this is the kind of lift used on California Cars:

I did find this article on taking the Coast Starlight via wheelchair. It is a little off since it doesn't start or end in San Diego.

http://www.wheelchairtraveling.com/train-ride-oakland-seattle/

The author says he boarded in Oakland, California, and arrived early and requested aid with a wheelchair. Apparently they didn't use a lift, but rather a metal ramp stored on the train. Something like this.

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

Here is the link http://www.adaptivelifts.com/wheelchair_lift_tx.htmlto the lift at the Rail Museum in Boulder City.

I went to the site and see that they now include in the manual that some electric chairs may be backed in. Also I noticed that they now say "Tested at 3,000 pounds". So there is some changes to the documentation.

I still believe you are close enought to the ratings to not have a problem.

 

[BCL]

I still believe you are close enought to the ratings to not have a problem.

I don't believe that the lift is even going to be used. I've found several Q&As and some trip reports that state that a fold-out ramp is typically used on the Coast Starlight. Besides that, it's only about 8 inches from the platform to the floor of the car, so the ramp would probably be preferable. I doubt they'll weigh the rider, and in any case even if the weight is over the rating it should be well within any reasonable safety margin. I haven't seen one of these in action, but I have seen a metal ramp brought out for one of the historic streetcars for San Francisco MUNI. The operator just whipped it out and unfolded it with a lot of noise.

http://emerginghorizons.com/expert/190/west-coast-train-trip/

http://ckttravels.blogspot.com

But I digress so I'll get back to the rail trip itself. We boarded the Coast Starlight in Oxnard. They were very helpful and had a wheelchair ramp set down between the train and the cement walkway.

 

[PVD]

If it is a bridge plate type boarding ramp in use, there is little likelihood of a problem. There really isn't anything to go wrong. Probably, no will even look twice while the chair and passenger goes aboard. Lifts represent a whole different level of complexity, because they use gear, pulley, or hydraulics to multiply force. If a lift fails, it is possible to get stuck, that can't happen on a ramp. That is part of the reason we are living in a world of (mostly) low floor buses with simple ramps vs the lifts need for high floors. Can't really avoid it on a single level car at a low platform, or on a coach style bus, but wherever possible they try to keep it simple. That being said, it is the manufacturer's rating that rules, not the safety margin. Some of these devices can even be 10-1. Which would be 6000 lbs breaking point. Does that mean that anyone in their right mind would let someone on with a 1000 pound load? If a lift jammed and the person was stuck on it, the operator would be at fault, even if they were just trying to "do the right thing" It would be unfortunate if someone were denied boarding in that situation, but somebody following the established regulation would not be out of line. Not worth getting fired or sued.

 

[BCL]

If it is a bridge plate type boarding ramp in use, there is little likelihood of a problem. There really isn't anything to go wrong. Probably, no will even look twice while the chair and passenger goes aboard. Lifts represent a whole different level of complexity, because they use gear, pulley, or hydraulics to multiply force. If a lift fails, it is possible to get stuck, that can't happen on a ramp. That is part of the reason we are living in a world of (mostly) low floor buses with simple ramps vs the lifts need for high floors. Can't really avoid it on a single level car at a low platform, or on a coach style bus, but wherever possible they try to keep it simple. That being said, it is the manufacturer's rating that rules, not the safety margin. Some of these devices can even be 10-1. Which would be 6000 lbs breaking point. Does that mean that anyone in their right mind would let someone on with a 1000 pound load? If a lift jammed and the person was stuck on it, the operator would be at fault, even if they were just trying to "do the right thing" It would be unfortunate if someone were denied boarding in that situation, but somebody following the established regulation would not be out of line. Not worth getting fired or sued.

I suspect they'll look at the OP and the whole rig without a second thought. We're talking about 650 lbs total, and in any case there isn't much to differentiate it with the base model that's supposed to weigh 330 lbs, in which case a 220 lbs rider would be within the rating.

However, it might be possible for excessive weight to cause a ramp to fail. It would have to take a lot of weight, years of fatigue (in which case the ramp should have been retired), or abuse (have you ever seen how these things get treated?). I don't suspect that will be an issue.

Hope the OP enjoys the trip. Kind of a shame that the OP won't be able to check out the upper levels, but there's still some pretty good scenery from the lower level.

 

[PVD]

True, in the real world, everything will almost definitely be fine. I guess sometimes we all get wrapped up in the nuances of the endless "what if" scenarios. That seems to make up quite a bit of what gets posted here, and I'm as guilty as the next guy. We all just hope the OP has no problems, and enjoys the trip.

 

[jojo144]

Well, this is an amazing forum. "Everything you wanted to know about train lifts and more."
At this point I have no doubt that I will be able to safely get on and off the Coast starlight with no difficulty. As far as increasing the force required for the operator to crank up the lift (in case I do need to use one instead of the expected on-board ramps), the increase I calculate to be about 1.5 pound of force.

Final question, (just because I happen to be a "belt and suspenders" person):
Is it even remotely conceivable that someone at the station will weigh me in my wheelchair and say "sorry sir, you are overweight and we can't take you on board"?
Again, thanks to everyone who responded.
Joe

 

[PVD]

I'd never say never, but you probably have a better chance of getting hit by lightning on the way to cashing in your winning powerball ticket.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Your not going to have any problems on your train or before boarding it.

Make sure your show up early so your not in a rush. Stop by the ticket booth, and say HI so they know your in a speeder. Ask about where to stage yourself for you ride.

Stop stress out and relax. Your about to discover a neat way to travel.

This thread is way out of control, information overload. Too much darn information in the WEB.

If you do win powerball be sure to wait for a sunny day before claim it. Lightning strikes can occur well outside the storm front. I am just saying.

 

[BCL]

Well, this is an amazing forum. "Everything you wanted to know about train lifts and more."
At this point I have no doubt that I will be able to safely get on and off the Coast starlight with no difficulty. As far as increasing the force required for the operator to crank up the lift (in case I do need to use one instead of the expected on-board ramps), the increase I calculate to be about 1.5 pound of force.

Final question, (just because I happen to be a "belt and suspenders" person):
Is it even remotely conceivable that someone at the station will weigh me in my wheelchair and say "sorry sir, you are overweight and we can't take you on board"?
Again, thanks to everyone who responded.
Joe

First, most of the info I've read about the Coast Starlight is that they will likely use ramps. So you should be fine unless your wheels can't handle a 5° incline.

As far as the weight goes, sure they'll have one of those portable scales used to weigh truck axles. Or not. I really can't conceive of any way they would weigh you and your rig. If anything, I would imagine that it might be an issue if something were to go wrong and they would request a weighing of the chair and the passenger to fend off a lawsuit. I wouldn't sweat it.

 

[jojo144]

"This thread is way out of control, information overload. Too much darn information in the WEB"

Not at all! I learned a great deal and feel much better about the upcoming trip.

"I'd never say never, but you probably have a better chance of getting hit by lightning on the way to cashing in your winning powerball ticket"

Well said. I needed to hear that.

I'll report back after the trip to let you know what happened.

Regards,

Joe