Passenger train service to Phoenix AZ.

[Anderson]

No, I'm not referring to the ex-SAL line (ar least, not exclusively). I'm talking about the BBRR (and half of the RF&P).

SEHSR has been snarled partly because it's split between states and partly because of federal funding being intermittent. I'd point out that service to Norfolk was put together in like 2-3 years.

 

[west point]

My best guess is that if the UP were to get on the ball, they could probably fix the line and reopen it in 9 - 12 months.

Completely relaying the whole line with continuously welded rail would take longer but that wouldn't necessarily need to be done by opening day.

It would not take that long. Just use those MOW temporary furloughed persons next winter. This winter too late, As far as new rail a Track laying machine could accomplish that section fairly quickly if new rail can be found and laid out along the out of service branch. What would be interesting if the few curves can be eased to allow 110 MPH passenger speeds from Wellton to Burkeville.

 

[George Harris]

I said all this on the Sunset Limited / Texas Eagle thread, but I am repeating it here as this is really the most logical place for this sort of information.
I found a piece of a 2004 UP Employee Timetable for this area. Follows is some information from it:

Summary: total length of Phoenix Line, 209.0 miles long, 71.7 miles out of service, over 100 miles with speed limits of 25 mph or less, meaning that, as is less than 40 miles can be operated at reasonable speeds. Massive rebuild effort required. Would suspect that condition of line today is no better than and probably worse than it was in 2004.

For Phoenix to the west, that distance is 135.3 miles, of which 71.7 miles, 53% of the total length, is out of service and none of which allows more than 25 mph. Suspect that the total out of service length may be more now than it was in 2004.

The lines are mileposted from West to East. Mileposts for passenger stations are not given. I have put in my best guess and labeled them as such. Here they are, beginning at Yuma and going east. Appears that the mileposting given for Yuma may be the passenger station.
732.7 Yuma
770.7 shown as beginning milepost of Phoenix Line
770.8 Wellton, with reduction of 0.6 miles due to milepost equations, 37.5 miles
896.0 Maricopa west end siding. With reduction of 0.4 miles due to MP equations, 124.8 miles fm Wellton
897.7 Maricopa east end siding. Station likely in this distance somewhere
936.7 Picacho west end siding - junction somewhere in this siding?? 39.0 miles between adjacent siding ends
938.4 Picacho east end siding
984.5 Tucson Station - approximate. Yard milepost 986.6
987.7 Gila Subdivision / Lordsburg Subdivision transition
1296.0 El Paso "Civic Center" Maybe Station Location? With reduction of 2.4 miles due to MP equations, 309.1 miles between stations Tucson to El Paso.
Speed limits are 79 passenger, 65 freight, 70 expedited freight, but with numerous speed restrictions of 70 mph to 55 mph, and some for less.

Now for the Phoenix Line:
770.7 Wellton - beginning portion shown designated as Roll Industrial Lead - ABS in service, but 20 mph, disregard signals.
771.0 derail
777.0 derail
782.3 end of in-service track - begin out of service track, next 20.5 miles out of service, but still in TT.
802.8 end of Roll Lead, begin Phoenix Line Main Track - next 51.2 miles out of service. Total 71.7 miles OOS
854.0 begin in-service track - 25 mph speed limit (unless reduced by slow orders which is likely.)
904.8 end 25 mph limit, begin 20 mph limit.
906.0 Phoenix Station - maybe - in 15 mph speed limit section.
907.0 Phoenix Yard
924.2 End low speed section with speed limits of 20 mph to 40 mph. - Except for four lower speed zones, speed limit is 60 mph the rest of the way to Picacho
979.7 Picacho - junction with main line, 25 mph turnout, no equation with main line milepost given. Likely to be 937.0.

Summary: Phoenix Line west of Phoenix, 209.0 miles long, 71.7 miles out of service, 137.3 miles with speed limits of 25 mph or less. Massive rebuild effort required. Would suspect that condition of line today is no better now and probably worse than it was in 2004.

Note that going through Phoenix is 43 miles longer than the line via Maricopa. That difference make the choice of route for freight obvious. While talking about the line west of Phoenix being out of service, is should not be forgotten that the line east of Phoenix is now effectively a stub end branch line, so that it also likely is no longer being kept to main line standards for high speed freight. Therefore, we are not talking about upgrading only the line west, but the entire line. The difference between them would be amount of work required. For the west line, 136 miles, with 2.5 mile sidings at about 15 mile intervals, which would be nine sidings, that would be 159 track-miles of rail, plus 420,000 ties, assuming concrete ties at 24 inch centers, plus 18 turnouts for sidings, plus 3 high speed turnouts at Wellton for the junction. I leave the cost guessing to others. For the east line, 75 miles, it would seem reasonable to again consider 100% new rail for the main track, but say we could reuse rails from the existing main track for the sidings. Here we would be looking at 75 track miles of new rail, and say about 50% new ties, which would be about 100,000 new ties, plus 10 turnouts for the sidings. (I think we should be considering higher speed turnouts and lengthening of sidings, as well.) What should be done in the way of station tracks at Phoenix, is for another time. Again, I leave the cost guessing to others.

 

[fredmcain]

George,

Thanks so much for the most interesting post and the information.

 

[alanh]

I'm pretty sure the active part of the Phoenix sub was rehabbed since 2006. Maybe around 2010?

The inactive section, of course, is completely decayed.

 

[fredmcain]

There has been an awful lot of talk lately concerning Tucson-Phoenix passenger service and developing the service into a "corridor" with several round trips per day. In fact, I think that federal funds for this to finance a study have already been approved.

But what I'm wondering is whether it might be more doable to first bring the Sunset back to Phoenix (hopefully with daily operation) and develop the Tucson-Phoenix corridor part of the plan later.

The Union Pacific may very well demand a second and perhaps even short sections of a third track from Tucson to Picacho and longer and more frequent sidings, CTC and PTC between Picacho and Phoenix. This will not come cheap. It might even well cost more than reopening to West Phoenix line, but I don't know that for sure.

 

[gavino]

On the old line, rail has been damaged totally in one section -

In this case though, only the baseline scenario of Class 2 track repair from the Wellton Branch Study (https://azdot.gov/sites/default/files/media/2021/12/ADOT-Wellton-Branch-Study-Final-Report.pdf) would add to the cost - which was estimated to be $30 million less than replacing with Class 3 track. The Class 2 track option, I imagine, was never a real serious consideration for passenger rail.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

No I don’t think they had permission to be on these rails. There is a group of highrailers that will do group tours with cars and carts with the permission of the railroad. This is not one of that group.

The actual wash out was not bad. The area with sand that cover the tracks would be more intense fix. Good looking track, some areas need more work than others.

 

[George Harris]

On the old line, rail has been damaged totally in one section -

This is not near as bad as it looks. Drag the rails in the damaged section out of the way along the track, get some earthmoving equipment out there and grade up the washout back to the proper cross section, bring in a car load ties, associated OTM (spikes, plates, bars and bolts if needed), a couple car loads of ballast, drag rail back into place and reassemble. Good to go for Class 2 or maybe even Class 3 track. Couple weeks at most.

What I find interesting is that where the hi-rail is sitting appears to be on a 10 or so panel trestle built for two tracks. Guessing that the second track was a siding long since removed.

 

[gavino]

From my understanding of the rail report, the entire branch would be reconstructed with new rail for Class 3 track, with minimal existing rail inspected and re-laid. Class 2 service with the minimal rail replacement assumption doesn't seem appealing at the cost provided, especially when the benefits of Class 3 tracks for the cost difference would outweigh the added cost - And the few weeks of labor and added materials cost further increases the cost of a "shortcut" Class 2 track service. I couldn't see how anyone would find it appealing to invest in. Anyways, just wanted to chime in here as this small branch was a childhood memory. Cheers and good luck!

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Class 3 track will support a passenger speed of 60 mph. 40 mph for freight.

This works quite nicely.

 

[toddinde]

I said all this on the Sunset Limited / Texas Eagle thread, but I am repeating it here as this is really the most logical place for this sort of information.
I found a piece of a 2004 UP Employee Timetable for this area. Follows is some information from it:

Summary: total length of Phoenix Line, 209.0 miles long, 71.7 miles out of service, over 100 miles with speed limits of 25 mph or less, meaning that, as is less than 40 miles can be operated at reasonable speeds. Massive rebuild effort required. Would suspect that condition of line today is no better than and probably worse than it was in 2004.

For Phoenix to the west, that distance is 135.3 miles, of which 71.7 miles, 53% of the total length, is out of service and none of which allows more than 25 mph. Suspect that the total out of service length may be more now than it was in 2004.

The lines are mileposted from West to East. Mileposts for passenger stations are not given. I have put in my best guess and labeled them as such. Here they are, beginning at Yuma and going east. Appears that the mileposting given for Yuma may be the passenger station.
732.7 Yuma
770.7 shown as beginning milepost of Phoenix Line
770.8 Wellton, with reduction of 0.6 miles due to milepost equations, 37.5 miles
896.0 Maricopa west end siding. With reduction of 0.4 miles due to MP equations, 124.8 miles fm Wellton
897.7 Maricopa east end siding. Station likely in this distance somewhere
936.7 Picacho west end siding - junction somewhere in this siding?? 39.0 miles between adjacent siding ends
938.4 Picacho east end siding
984.5 Tucson Station - approximate. Yard milepost 986.6
987.7 Gila Subdivision / Lordsburg Subdivision transition
1296.0 El Paso "Civic Center" Maybe Station Location? With reduction of 2.4 miles due to MP equations, 309.1 miles between stations Tucson to El Paso.
Speed limits are 79 passenger, 65 freight, 70 expedited freight, but with numerous speed restrictions of 70 mph to 55 mph, and some for less.

Now for the Phoenix Line:
770.7 Wellton - beginning portion shown designated as Roll Industrial Lead - ABS in service, but 20 mph, disregard signals.
771.0 derail
777.0 derail
782.3 end of in-service track - begin out of service track, next 20.5 miles out of service, but still in TT.
802.8 end of Roll Lead, begin Phoenix Line Main Track - next 51.2 miles out of service. Total 71.7 miles OOS
854.0 begin in-service track - 25 mph speed limit (unless reduced by slow orders which is likely.)
904.8 end 25 mph limit, begin 20 mph limit.
906.0 Phoenix Station - maybe - in 15 mph speed limit section.
907.0 Phoenix Yard
924.2 End low speed section with speed limits of 20 mph to 40 mph. - Except for four lower speed zones, speed limit is 60 mph the rest of the way to Picacho
979.7 Picacho - junction with main line, 25 mph turnout, no equation with main line milepost given. Likely to be 937.0.

Summary: Phoenix Line west of Phoenix, 209.0 miles long, 71.7 miles out of service, 137.3 miles with speed limits of 25 mph or less. Massive rebuild effort required. Would suspect that condition of line today is no better now and probably worse than it was in 2004.

Note that going through Phoenix is 43 miles longer than the line via Maricopa. That difference make the choice of route for freight obvious. While talking about the line west of Phoenix being out of service, is should not be forgotten that the line east of Phoenix is now effectively a stub end branch line, so that it also likely is no longer being kept to main line standards for high speed freight. Therefore, we are not talking about upgrading only the line west, but the entire line. The difference between them would be amount of work required. For the west line, 136 miles, with 2.5 mile sidings at about 15 mile intervals, which would be nine sidings, that would be 159 track-miles of rail, plus 420,000 ties, assuming concrete ties at 24 inch centers, plus 18 turnouts for sidings, plus 3 high speed turnouts at Wellton for the junction. I leave the cost guessing to others. For the east line, 75 miles, it would seem reasonable to again consider 100% new rail for the main track, but say we could reuse rails from the existing main track for the sidings. Here we would be looking at 75 track miles of new rail, and say about 50% new ties, which would be about 100,000 new ties, plus 10 turnouts for the sidings. (I think we should be considering higher speed turnouts and lengthening of sidings, as well.) What should be done in the way of station tracks at Phoenix, is for another time. Again, I leave the cost guessing to others.

The current money awarded as the Corridor ID will provide an accurate cost estimate of the Picacho Jct to Buckeye segment. This might sound like a lot of money, but it pales in comparison to greenfield rail development or highway projects. A major freeway interchange can easily cost a billion dollars. It’s worth pointing out that the Wellton Cutoff is remote trackage and isn’t impacted by NIMBY kind of problems. Nor are large parts of the Tucson to Phoenix portion. The route has already been determined and we’re way further ahead here than many other corridors and service restorations since the tracks exist and the restoration needs were largely developed in the 2015 study. Transportation improvements are not done in a vacuum. This project has tremendous bipartisan support and is viewed as needed by the mayors in most of the online communities. As for the host railroad, indications are that restoration of the Wellton Cutoff dovetails with UP’s plans to build up freight service between the Port of Long Beach and Phoenix as well as the booming industrial development west of Phoenix. Anyone who drive I-10 between Tucson and Phoenix knows it’s a mess. Both downtown Phoenix and Tucson are redeveloping and rail can be a huge part of that. Both cities have light rail/streetcar connections that would link stations in both communities. The corridor happens to link the major destinations of region including airports, the state’s two largest universities, sporting venues. One of Amtrak’s busiest city pairs is Tucson to LA on the Sunset Limited. This is despite the fact that the Sunset runs tri-weekly. A daily Sunset through Phoenix would have incredible ridership. Phoenix is the fastest growing metro and Tucson is growing rapidly as well. This project, of all the projects in the U.S., is one of the most needed, has the most potential coupled with the most synergies of any project.

 

[Palmland]

Saw this article in today's Trains' Newswire. If successful, it might encourage UP to reopen he direct line to Phoenix.

PHOENIX — Union Pacific has opened its Phoenix Intermodal Terminal, the latest addition to the railroad’s “pop-up” terminal strategy to test markets before building large, permanent facilities.....

The facility was built within UP’s existing downtown rail yard, which will allow expansion as demand warrants. It offers service to and from the ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach, as well as UP’s Intermodal Container Transfer Facility in Long Beach

 

[GDRRiley]

Saw this article in today's Trains' Newswire. If successful, it might encourage UP to reopen he direct line to Phoenix.

PHOENIX — Union Pacific has opened its Phoenix Intermodal Terminal, the latest addition to the railroad’s “pop-up” terminal strategy to test markets before building large, permanent facilities.....

The facility was built within UP’s existing downtown rail yard, which will allow expansion as demand warrants. It offers service to and from the ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach, as well as UP’s Intermodal Container Transfer Facility in Long Beach

yep if the service goes well I can see UP repairing the branch to probably class 3 standards maybe class 4.

 

[west point]

One proposal that might be a win - win for everyone.
1. UP would completely clean all the ballast that is still in large amounts under the present tracks.
1a. UP update any culverts and bridges to increase capacity 2 - 4 times present design for possible large rain events.
2. Run a Sperry truck to determine if rail quality OK.
3. Set aside any good rail for at least 3 sidings long enough to handle any possible diversion from the Maricopa route. Any remaining good rail set aside for main track straightaways.
4. Get new 136 / 141 # rail to make up the difference in required rail. Or maybe reused rail from a main line replacement?
5. UP install signaling for class 4 operation.
6. Amtrak pay for sidings and CPs + signaling for the sidings;
7. Since route is at present out of service UP can use a track laying machine (TLM) to re do the whole route.
8. Add additional ballast and surface to class 5 specs.
9. Start operation probably at class 4 operations including rerouted Amtrak daily sunset.

 

[joelkfla]

From https://www.trains.com/trn/train-basics/abcs-of-railroading/track-classifications/

Class 4: 60 mph for freight, 80 mph for passenger. This is the dominant class for mainline track used in passenger and long-haul freight service.

Class 5: 80 mph for freight, 90 mph for passenger. This is the standard for most high-speed track in the U.S.

 

[GDRRiley]

One proposal that might be a win - win for everyone.
1. UP would completely clean all the ballast that is still in large amounts under the present tracks.
1a. UP update any culverts and bridges to increase capacity 2 - 4 times present design for possible large rain events.
2. Run a Sperry truck to determine if rail quality OK.
3. Set aside any good rail for at least 3 sidings long enough to handle any possible diversion from the Maricopa route. Any remaining good rail set aside for main track straightaways.
4. Get new 136 / 141 # rail to make up the difference in required rail. Or maybe reused rail from a main line replacement?
5. UP install signaling for class 4 operation.
6. Amtrak pay for sidings and CPs + signaling for the sidings;
7. Since route is at present out of service UP can use a track laying machine (TLM) to re do the whole route.
8. Add additional ballast and surface to class 5 specs.
9. Start operation probably at class 4 operations including rerouted Amtrak daily sunset.

you would just do the whole thing using a track renewal machine and then whatever good rail is left over can get put into sidings or whatever. Lifecycle cost wise its likely better to go all new ties and rail. For sidings I assume UP right now would want 15,000ft ones

 

[alanh]

Part 2 of the exploration of the out of service line is posted, going from the other direction. There are two destroyed bridges.

 

[west point]

When UP starts bridge & culvert work then we will know a serious effort has begun.

 

[alanh]

Small update in the Arizona Republic. Planning work is ongoing and has funding, but no timeline for service.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...g-plans-expand-az-passenger-rail/74982656007/

 

[BlackDiamond]

Small update in the Arizona Republic. Planning work is ongoing and has funding, but no timeline for service.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...g-plans-expand-az-passenger-rail/74982656007/

That article appears to be paywalled. Can you summarize what it says?

 

[alanh]

Not a lot else. They had a meeting to discuss it. There's also a proposal for a Tucson to Phoenix train. The actual planning won't start until next year.

Sunset Limited, which currently runs through Maricopa, would now stop into Phoenix. It's unclear if the reroute would replace Maricopa or merely add Phoenix. Instead of running three times weekly, it would run daily.

ADOT's passenger rail would stop at eight new stations: Marana, Coolidge, Queen Creek, Tempe, Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport, downtown Phoenix, Goodyear-Avondale and Buckeye.

ADOT is proposing three daily roundtrips from Tucson to Buckeye, with one-way travel time of approximately 73 minutes.

I think it's certain that Maricopa will be dropped if it reroutes to Phoenix.

 

[George Harris]

A lot of these planners and media types ignorance of geography gives me screaming fits: "It's unclear if the reroute would replace Maricopa or merely add Phoenix." LOOK AT A MAP, PLEASE. It is either/or. Geography does not permit both.

 

[toddinde]

Not a lot else. They had a meeting to discuss it. There's also a proposal for a Tucson to Phoenix train. The actual planning won't start until next year.

I think it's certain that Maricopa will be dropped if it reroutes to Phoenix.

Planning is ongoing at Arizona DOT. It is required as part of Corridor ID. Tucson to Buckeye was accepted into Corridor ID and funded by the Infrastructure and Jobs Act. The Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle is also being worked as it too was accepted into the program.

 

[toddinde]

Rail Nation-Tucson will be held in Tucson November 1-3. This event, cosponsored by Rail Passengers Association and All Aboard Arizona will have top officials from Amtrak, Federal Railroad Administration, Arizona Department of Transportation, mayors from around Arizona, tribal leaders, planners and advocates with interactive presentations on the status and progress on all thinks rail passenger in Arizona. This is a major, national conference, and Amtrak President Stephan Gardner will be speaking. The Tucson - Buckeye corridor and return of the Sunset/Texas Eagle to the Valley and Phoenix is moving along. Come and join us and learn the facts, meet the principles involved, and find out how you can help the process along. Registration is available on the RPA and All Aboard Arizona websites. There are also great social events planned like Ale Nation, a tour of the Tucson Trolley Museum, a mariachi brunch, and much more. Come join us in Tucson on November 1-3.