Pennsylvanian may end

[afigg]

There has been talk to move the Middletown Amtrak closer to the airport.

More than talk. The new station location for Middletown has been selected and, AFAIK, the station project is still fully funded. The PlantheKeystone entry for the Middletown station has not been updated recently, but the project was moving ahead in 2011. The new station location is not at the airport, but closer and possibly will be served by shuttle parking buses from the airport.

 

[Nathanael]

Someday, when or if a HSR line is built from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, they can then follow that by building a spur line to State College along the Bud Shuster highway ROW to put the ROW to good use.

I have strongly suggested that HSR from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, if it ever happens, should go *via* State College. The "detour" is worth it to get to the largest point of intermediate population. And there's actually a pretty good route from State College back to Altoona which is an existing ROW. Harrisburg-State College would be a sensible, "bite-sized" step towards improved passenger service in Pennsylvania.

 

[benjibear]

Someday, when or if a HSR line is built from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, they can then follow that by building a spur line to State College along the Bud Shuster highway ROW to put the ROW to good use.

I have strongly suggested that HSR from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, if it ever happens, should go *via* State College. The "detour" is worth it to get to the largest point of intermediate population. And there's actually a pretty good route from State College back to Altoona which is an existing ROW. Harrisburg-State College would be a sensible, "bite-sized" step towards improved passenger service in Pennsylvania.

I would second that. It would be an excuse to go see some football.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

It's only like 20 minutes longer driving time and doesn't involve toll roads. DC is much closer to State College than you'd think it would be. Plus picking the DC airports over Philly gave you way more options. Pittsburgh is close to an hour less of a drive than DC or Philly, but good luck flying anywhere out of there any more. And MDT (Harrisburg) is worthless in every way, so that's right out.
Just out of curiosity, I looked into your plan:

The drive from State College to the nearest useful train station (the drive actually passes a stop on the Pennsylvanian and State College is within 25 straightline miles of two others, but those are not useful) is 94 minutes to Harrisburg.

I live in the vicinity of Dulles Airport and have driven on the Bud Shuster highway (aka I-99) pass State College (albeit some years back), so I am familiar with the drive. Checking the maps, State College to Dulles Airport is around 3-1/2 hours and 210 miles by car, depending on the route. That is a long drive and not cheap, when the full cost of the drive is added up. Say, ~$100 each way, using a cost basis lower than the IRS per mile number. JFK Airport is not all that much further at ~260 miles and of course would likely offer even more international destinations that Dulles Airport. State College is rather isolated from the big cities, out there in central PA.

An option would be to drive or get a bus for the 32 miles to Lewistown, take the Pennsylvanian to NYP in a relaxing 5.5 hour trip, and then LIRR & Air Train to JFK. Or take a bus from State College to Harrisburg (I assume there are such buses) and a Keystone at roughly 3:15 trip time to NYP. Yes, taking Amtrak to BWI or WAS, then to Dulles is not convenient without the not likely to return soon Harrisburg to Baltimore connection, but it can be done. My reaction is mainly that State College to Dulles Airport is a really long way to drive just to get to the lovely Dulles Airport for international flights over the other travel options.

Your mistake was taking 99! We'd run 322 (and one time outpaced what was probably the Three Rivers through the Narrows!) and could keep a higher speed long.

In all those alternates, it fails the two major tests I throw at all travel: time and flexibility. Those matter more to me that cost. Car left exactly when I wanted it to. Which is pretty handy when you're booking a flight. I don't remember anyone, ever, going to JFK. Five and a half hours could practically get you all the way to Cleveland before you'd even be at the airport in NYC. Occasionally people would actually fly out of KUNV to KCVG, but that cost a lot.

Look, I love taking the train and do it a lot. But it's not great for flexibility and time. Especially when you have to start devising these Rube Goldberg travel plans that take three times as long just to save $35.

 

[afigg]

They seem to be incapable of running a single train and of course they will build an HSR. Riiiiight!

When it comes to HSR in the US, take the long view. What will the price and availability of oil in 10, 20, 30 years? Eventually PA will get a Governor and political & business leadership that will realize that the 2 major cities and economic centers in the state should be connected by a HSR corridor. They have an electrified passenger rail line going about 1/3 of the way from Philly to Pittsburgh which makes for a pretty good start to build off of. Time will tell.

 

[afigg]

I have strongly suggested that HSR from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, if it ever happens, should go *via* State College. The "detour" is worth it to get to the largest point of intermediate population. And there's actually a pretty good route from State College back to Altoona which is an existing ROW. Harrisburg-State College would be a sensible, "bite-sized" step towards improved passenger service in Pennsylvania.

I understand the thinking of providing rail access to State College. Major passenger rail market there if there was a good route available. But it is more than a bit out of the way for a faster Pittsburgh to Philly run. If there real money for HSR in PA, build a main line from PGH to Johnstown, then on a more southern route to Harrisburg. Put Altoona and State College on a branch line that - this is where it gets expensive, goes from State College to Harrisburg. Just a few billion more please. OTOH, maybe it could be sold to the business and political class as allowing them direct trips to attend Penn State football games.

 

[benjibear]

I don't see State College being on a rail line anytime soon. Maybe a through bus link would work to increase passengers from that market. The ideal for HSR is to extend west from Harrisburg and then extending the Keystone. If it ran the frequency of the Keystone, you could maybe create some commuting passengers into Harrisburg much like the Keystone does.

As far as our Governor, I don't think anything better will come soon. The last two, Fast Eddy (Ed Rendell) and Two Faced Tommy (Tom Crobet), haven't been the greatest for the state.

 

[jis]

They seem to be incapable of running a single train and of course they will build an HSR. Riiiiight!

When it comes to HSR in the US, take the long view. What will the price and availability of oil in 10, 20, 30 years? Eventually PA will get a Governor and political & business leadership that will realize that the 2 major cities and economic centers in the state should be connected by a HSR corridor. They have an electrified passenger rail line going about 1/3 of the way from Philly to Pittsburgh which makes for a pretty good start to build off of. Time will tell.

Been doing so for 30 years already

 

[fairviewroad]

I don't see State College being on a rail line anytime soon. Maybe a through bus link would work to increase passengers from that market.

Yeah, I've often wondered why Amtrak doesn't establish a Thruway service to State College, connecting from the Keystones in Harrisburg.

They've basically yielded that market to MegaBus and Greyhound. Of course, it'd be hard to convince Philly area students attending Penn

State to take a train to HAR and connect to a bus when MegaBus gives them a one-seat ride for a highly competitive price. But Keystones

to Harrisburg, then Thruway to State College would be attractive to people living along the Main Line who could hop a train in Ardmore or

Paoli/Exton etc or even Lancaster then transfer to the bus. It would save backtracking into Philly to get the MegaBus. So I think there's some

potential.

 

[Eric S]

I believe one of the PRIIA reports suggested starting Thruway bus service from both Harrisburg (for travel to/from the east) and Altoona (for travel to/from the west). Can't recall if it was the Capitol Limited report (with the section on through-running Pennsylvanian cars) or another report focused on Pennsylvania service generally.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

It wasn't in the CL report. I read that thing a few times and it's all about the through cars.

State College is at a huge disadvantage for topography as far as putting it on a rail line of any kind. Passenger service in the area started to decline in the 20s and was effectively dead by 40s. And actually dead in...47 I think. Terrain dictates that you go north-south (or northeast-southwest literally). The available "passes" are already occupied with rail lines but neither is close to State College. Even back in the day, it made for very, very roundabout trips. There's no water gap east of State College. You either have the Tyrone-Huntingdon-Lewiston-Duncannon route (that is currently taken) or you go really far out of the way to do Tyrone-Lock Haven-Williamsport-Sunbury. Which still passes State College!

 

[Eric S]

You're right, not the CL report. There was a separate "Pennsylvania Service Studies - PRIIA Section 224" issued Oct 2009. It dealt with adding a Rockwood PA stop to the CL, looked at increasing service to Cornwells Heights and Princeton Junction, and also at increasing/improving service PGH-HAR (including potential Thruway service to State College).

 

[Alexandria Nick]

Rockwood huh?

Might do some business, if there was any way to get to and from a station there. Decent enough tourist area.

 

[jis]

One thing that I have noticed about several high speed lines elsewhere in the world is that they don;t seem to depend too much on water gaps and such.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

One thing that I have noticed about several high speed lines elsewhere in the world is that they don;t seem to depend too much on water gaps and such.

I was under the impression that HSR didn't handle steep grades well. The Ridge and Valley Region isn't tall but its excessively steep. Even for cars. Most of the roads even attack the ridges with parallel ascents on multi-mile grades exceeding five percent.

 

[Anderson]

That's true, though in a lot of cases the solution involves lots of digging and dynamite.

 

[trainviews]

One thing that I have noticed about several high speed lines elsewhere in the world is that they don;t seem to depend too much on water gaps and such.

I was under the impression that HSR didn't handle steep grades well. The Ridge and Valley Region isn't tall but its excessively steep. Even for cars. Most of the roads even attack the ridges with parallel ascents on multi-mile grades exceeding five percent.

Actually HSR can do steeper grades than traditional railroads, which has to be able to run heavy freights. Out of memory I think the feasible grade max for a freight rail is somewhere like 1-1.5 percent while a HSR alignment can do up to 4 percent.

But in reality the solution is mostly tunneling. What the HSR win in steeper grades it sells again in much less tolerance for curves, which has to be much softer because of the speed. So any zigzagging is total nogo. A straight alignment with the necessary tunnels and bridges is really the only and very expensive way to go through mountainous areas...

Edited - i got percentage and promille wrong. The point stands though...

 

[afigg]

I was under the impression that HSR didn't handle steep grades well. The Ridge and Valley Region isn't tall but its excessively steep. Even for cars. Most of the roads even attack the ridges with parallel ascents on multi-mile grades exceeding five percent.

That is not the case. I have to dig up the documents, but as I recall, the proposed alternate routes for the CA HSR route through the Tehachapi mountains have sustained grades of so many miles of up to 6%. Presumably slowing down a little from 220 mph as the train climbs. It is not the 1800s anymore. With tunnel boring machines, elevated tracks across the valleys between the hills, and enough money, a much more direct route could be cut for HSR from Harrisburg to Johnstown to Pittsburgh. Or a new route from Harrisburg to State College and then to Johnstown.

However, I simply don't think the population of State College, as strong a college market it could be, is even remotely big enough to justify building a new HSR route directly from Harrisburg to State College. if State College ever gets connected to a Philly-Pittsburgh HSR corridor, it will be on a spur line running between the ridges, following I-99 for some of the route. Possibly a non-electrified line with a transfer station at Altoona. But any such concept is a long ways off.

 

[Jersey Jeff]

FYI, there is an online petition to keep the Pennsylvanian running.

 

[cirdan]

FYI, there is an online petition to keep the Pennsylvanian running.

signed that

 

[amarsh]

Ugh, why is it that Repub governors always stupidly go after cutting Amtrak service? And interesting point about Amtrak Thruway service above, since State College would be a great candidate for connecting service from a nearby station(dunno, I guess from SC to Altoona would be the closest Pennsylvanian stop?).

 

[Barciur]

Altoona is 43 miles away but it's an interstate highway, Lewistown and Huntingdon all 30 miles away so a bit closer but could be longer without the interstate.

 

[Paulus]

NARP

Amtrak has reached a deal with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to ensure that the daily New York-Pittsburgh Pennsylvanian continues to run past Sept. 30! Thank you to all of our hard-working volunteers and all of you who took action to help make this significant victory possible! More to come. Please share.

 

[leemell]

NARP

Amtrak has reached a deal with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to ensure that the daily New York-Pittsburgh Pennsylvanian continues to run past Sept. 30! Thank you to all of our hard-working volunteers and all of you who took action to help make this significant victory possible! More to come. Please share.

And here on Amtrak's Facebook page.

 

[PRR 60]

Now that the decision has been made, let's continue the discussion here.