Pennsylvanian may end

[AlanB]

While this route is mountainous, the bus would still be far better for intermediate stops over gradeless routes while trains handle through traffic. They are smaller, more flexible, and each stop can be completed in about one minute. For example, multiple slow bus routes could supplement express trains on CHI-MSP. Now Megabus has no intermediate stops while Amtrak relies a lot on them. Bad for both.

The NEC by comparison to the Pennsy is gradeless; yet as noted by Trogdor, twice a super express Acela has failed for lack of ridership & revenue. Amtrak tried the super express very early on when the Acela's first came online and again just a few years ago now. And both times it failed.

Yes, we don't want Acela's stopping at every available stop on the NEC either. But the simple reality is that trains do need to make some stops, super expresses don't seem to work.

 

[Nathanael]

I was being a bit snarky about I-80, but the truth is it's simply not very useful, and it needn't have been built at all. It certainly doesn't benefit most residents of Pennsylvania, as it avoids most cities. We have an equivalently unnecessary expressway in New York (I-86), which could perfectly well have remained a two-lane rural road forever.

With roads like that, there's plenty of room to cut the transportation budget while maintaining core Philadelphia-Pittsburgh rail service.

One might be able to argue that I-86 superfluous or useless, but I-80 while perhaps not entirely useful to a majority of those living in PA, is still quite useful in the greater scheme of things. And while they may not drive on it, PA residents still benefit from the truck traffic delivering goods to them.

You mean the trucks delivering goods to *New Jersey*?

... perhaps you mean the trucks delivering goods which should be piggybacking by train?

Yeah, I stand by "useless for PA residents". I realize it's probably not practical in the short term to just stop funding it -- that federal highway money is so attractive. But at some point, one of the states is going to decide that federal highway money is a poisoned chalice, and why not Pennsylvania?

 

[Alexandria Nick]

I was being a bit snarky about I-80, but the truth is it's simply not very useful, and it needn't have been built at all. It certainly doesn't benefit most residents of Pennsylvania, as it avoids most cities. We have an equivalently unnecessary expressway in New York (I-86), which could perfectly well have remained a two-lane rural road forever.

With roads like that, there's plenty of room to cut the transportation budget while maintaining core Philadelphia-Pittsburgh rail service.

One might be able to argue that I-86 superfluous or useless, but I-80 while perhaps not entirely useful to a majority of those living in PA, is still quite useful in the greater scheme of things. And while they may not drive on it, PA residents still benefit from the truck traffic delivering goods to them.

You mean the trucks delivering goods to *New Jersey*?

... perhaps you mean the trucks delivering goods which should be piggybacking by train?

Yeah, I stand by "useless for PA residents". I realize it's probably not practical in the short term to just stop funding it -- that federal highway money is so attractive. But at some point, one of the states is going to decide that federal highway money is a poisoned chalice, and why not Pennsylvania?

As a former Pennsylvanian (1986-2010), I'd vigorously disagree with I-80 being useless for Pennsylvanians. Way more PA plates on cars on 80 than other states. I've driven Exit 29 to Exit 123 in excess of 60 times, so I'm going to declare myself an expert on this.

There are lots of distribution centers along 80. Intermodal can't solve the last mile.

 

[afigg]

While this route is mountainous, the bus would still be far better for intermediate stops over gradeless routes while trains handle through traffic. They are smaller, more flexible, and each stop can be completed in about one minute. For example, multiple slow bus routes could supplement express trains on CHI-MSP. Now Megabus has no intermediate stops while Amtrak relies a lot on them. Bad for both.

Megabus, as do other direct service curbside bus operators, has a different business model and travel pattern that an intercity passenger train. since they run 1 bus at a time, likely more profitable and attracts customers if they run directly between two markets and not make multiple stops on the way. An intercity passenger train with a capacity of 300 to 500 seats, running over a fixed route makes multiple stops along the route, so people can get on or off.

The time penalty for the train in making a stop to pick up and drop off passengers is far less than for an intercity bus. The bus may have to get off of the interstate, drive through traffic to a parking lot, let people get off and on, then drive to get back to the highway.

You suggested earlier that the Pennsylvanian skip Elizabethtown. Which has high level platforms and was the 4th busiest stop in FY12 on the Keystone East corridor west of the 30th Street. Harrisburg (571K passengers) and Lancaster (559K) are the 2 busiest, followed by Paoli (168K), then Elizabethtown (112K), followed by Exton (110K) which is growing quickly. The westbound #43 stops at the 4 busiest stations on the eastern Keystone. If Exton keeps growing, adding a stop there both ways may make sense despite Exton being close to Paoli.

There is progress being made on the plans for the Paoli Transportation Center. Yes, the station project has a website with proposed site plans. If Gov. Corbett can get his wholesale gas tax revenue increase passed, there will be more capital funding for SEPTA. Which in turn may mean enough funds for SEPTA to advance the new Paoli station project. Get high level center platforms at Paoli and trains can load and unload more quickly.

 

[cirdan]

The time lost for a stop on 79 mph territory is about 3 minutes for acceleration (and deceleration; though my high school physics teacher hated the term deceleration and preferred "negative acceleration" instead; but that's neither here nor there), plus whatever your dwell time is. When the speed past the station is lower, the time lost is even less.

I had a professor at university whose professor had been Wolfgang Pauli, and he sometimes recally anecdotes about the great man.

One of these stories was about his driving test. Pauli didn't start driving until quite late in his life, and was notorious for driving slowly, slowing down traffic, and for making unexpected turns.

So not surprisingly, he failed his driving test several times.

On one of these tests he was driving along at a very low speed, when the driving inspector said

"Professor Pauli, it's all very well what you're doing, but I'd like to see whether you actually know how to accelerate this car".

Pauli answered

"Are you sure you want to see an acceleration?"

"Yes, go ahead and show me".

Pauli the twisted the wheel over and drove the car around in a very tight circle dangerously in the middle of the road.

Needless to say he failed the test. But those of us who know physics will recognize that he did indeed comply with the inspector's wishes and accelerate the car.

 

[benjibear]

I don't agree with the Pennsylvanian being a bus route. Let's suppose Megabus replicates the Pennsy with all the intermediate stops. I punched this route into google and just driving it will take you 5 hours and 30 minutes which does not include the actual time to load and unload. Assume this can be done 3 minutes per station times 7 stations will add 21 minutes. So not we have a 5 hour, 51 minute bus route compared to Amtrak at 5 hours, 30 minutes.

 

[PRR 60]

I don't agree with the Pennsylvanian being a bus route. Let's suppose Megabus replicates the Pennsy with all the intermediate stops. I punched this route into google and just driving it will take you 5 hours and 30 minutes which does not include the actual time to load and unload. Assume this can be done 3 minutes per station times 7 stations will add 21 minutes. So not we have a 5 hour, 51 minute bus route compared to Amtrak at 5 hours, 30 minutes.

That is a great point. Getting from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh is much shorter and faster using the Pennsylvania Turnpike than using the old PRR. However, to serve the railroad towns along the way, the railroad is the best route. Those towns are not close to the turnpike.

There is an irony here. The route of the Pennsylvania Turnpike from a point just west of Harrisburg to a point just east of Pittsburgh was constructed on the right-of-way and the partially completed roadbed of a railroad. In the late 1800's, the South Pennsylvania Railroad was being constructed by the owners of the New York Central to compete with the PRR across Pennsylvania. The project went broke and was abandoned in1885, but not until much of the roadbed and even several tunnels were constructed. The project sat abandoned until the 1930's. The initial section of the Pennsylvania Turnpike was constructed along that route, and even used a couple of the original tunnels (with some improvements). That first section of the turnpike opened for traffic in 1940.

Imagine if the original railroad had been completed. The route between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh via the turnpike is nearly 50 miles shorter than the route via the PRR. Would today's Amtrak service be on the old PRR, or on the South Pennsylvania RR route?

 

[Ryan]

So what you're saying is that we should rip up one side of the turnpike and put rails down?

 

[fairviewroad]

Sorry guys, a little bit off topic but I figured this is the best place to ask since it's a Pennsy thread that's pretty hot now so rather than create a new one I figure I'll ask here.
I've never taken the Pennsylvanian before as I live in Lancaster and go to Philly or NYP and take the Keystone, but I need to get to Philly next week on a midweek day and the only time that works is the Pennsylvanian. I was longing to film a train trip for a foreign railfans forums and thought this would be a good opportunity.

So my question is - how packed is the Pennsylvanian on regular basis? Esp. on a midweek day going eastbound. Can I reasonably expect to find an open seat by the window or am I gonna have to sit by somebody in the coach?

As it happens, I did just what you are describing about 3 weeks ago. I took the Pennsylvanian from Lancaster to Philly on a Tuesday afternoon.

Quite a lot of people were boarding, but quite a lot of people disembarked, too. I had no problem getting a window seat, but someone else who

boarded ended up beside me (nothing wrong with that, but what I mean is that if he had wanted a window seat he'd have been out of luck).

One tip is that the conductors at LNC were directing people toward the front of the train where there were more empty seats. Not sure if that's

always the case, though.

 

[PRR 60]

So what you're saying is that we should rip up one side of the turnpike and put rails down?

Now, there's an idea!! :lol:

 

[Barciur]

Sorry guys, a little bit off topic but I figured this is the best place to ask since it's a Pennsy thread that's pretty hot now so rather than create a new one I figure I'll ask here.
I've never taken the Pennsylvanian before as I live in Lancaster and go to Philly or NYP and take the Keystone, but I need to get to Philly next week on a midweek day and the only time that works is the Pennsylvanian. I was longing to film a train trip for a foreign railfans forums and thought this would be a good opportunity.

So my question is - how packed is the Pennsylvanian on regular basis? Esp. on a midweek day going eastbound. Can I reasonably expect to find an open seat by the window or am I gonna have to sit by somebody in the coach?

As it happens, I did just what you are describing about 3 weeks ago. I took the Pennsylvanian from Lancaster to Philly on a Tuesday afternoon.

Quite a lot of people were boarding, but quite a lot of people disembarked, too. I had no problem getting a window seat, but someone else who

boarded ended up beside me (nothing wrong with that, but what I mean is that if he had wanted a window seat he'd have been out of luck).

One tip is that the conductors at LNC were directing people toward the front of the train where there were more empty seats. Not sure if that's

always the case, though.

Thanks a lot for the response. I might just end up doing it on another trip on the Keystone since I'll be going to NYP in a couple of weeks to save me some hassle since there are always window seats open on that train.

 

[Nathanael]

There are lots of distribution centers along 80. Intermodal can't solve the last mile.

Ahhh. Built up after I-80 was constructed, no doubt. Hadn't followed that saga. OK then. It'll probably be necessary to build a rail line parallel to it to supply those distribution centers, sooner or later, as long-distance trucking becomes non-viable.

 

[benjibear]

So what you're saying is that we should rip up one side of the turnpike and put rails down?

Now, there's an idea!! :lol:

Yes! Yes! I am writing my state senator and rep about this. They will think I am crazy.

 

[fairviewroad]

So what you're saying is that we should rip up one side of the turnpike and put rails down?

Now, there's an idea!! :lol:

Yes! Yes! I am writing my state senator and rep about this. They will think I am crazy.

Pretty sure the PA Turnpike in its present form has grades and curves that would slow a train down so much as to render it useless.

Otherwise, good plan. :giggle:

 

[benjibear]

So what you're saying is that we should rip up one side of the turnpike and put rails down?

Now, there's an idea!! :lol:

Yes! Yes! I am writing my state senator and rep about this. They will think I am crazy.

Pretty sure the PA Turnpike in its present form has grades and curves that would slow a train down so much as to render it useless.

Otherwise, good plan. :giggle:

They can route it on the original roadbed and through the abondoned tunels.

I am just kidding. It would take a miracle to tear out a road and put in rails.

But seriously, is there any place on the existing route that Amtrak could make up time?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

While this route is mountainous, the bus would still be far better for intermediate stops over gradeless routes while trains handle through traffic. They are smaller, more flexible, and each stop can be completed in about one minute. For example, multiple slow bus routes could supplement express trains on CHI-MSP. Now Megabus has no intermediate stops while Amtrak relies a lot on them. Bad for both.

Megabus, as do other direct service curbside bus operators, has a different business model and travel pattern that an intercity passenger train. since they run 1 bus at a time, likely more profitable and attracts customers if they run directly between two markets and not make multiple stops on the way. An intercity passenger train with a capacity of 300 to 500 seats, running over a fixed route makes multiple stops along the route, so people can get on or off.

The time penalty for the train in making a stop to pick up and drop off passengers is far less than for an intercity bus. The bus may have to get off of the interstate, drive through traffic to a parking lot, let people get off and on, then drive to get back to the highway.

You suggested earlier that the Pennsylvanian skip Elizabethtown. Which has high level platforms and was the 4th busiest stop in FY12 on the Keystone East corridor west of the 30th Street. Harrisburg (571K passengers) and Lancaster (559K) are the 2 busiest, followed by Paoli (168K), then Elizabethtown (112K), followed by Exton (110K) which is growing quickly. The westbound #43 stops at the 4 busiest stations on the eastern Keystone. If Exton keeps growing, adding a stop there both ways may make sense despite Exton being close to Paoli.

There is progress being made on the plans for the Paoli Transportation Center. Yes, the station project has a website with proposed site plans. If Gov. Corbett can get his wholesale gas tax revenue increase passed, there will be more capital funding for SEPTA. Which in turn may mean enough funds for SEPTA to advance the new Paoli station project. Get high level center platforms at Paoli and trains can load and unload more quickly.

WTF? I did NOT suggest that the Pennsy skip Elixabetown or Exton. That must have been someone else! Don't throw all the blame onto me!

 

[CHamilton]

From NARP:

As Pennsylvania state officials debate over whether to fund the continued existence of the Pennsylvanian, the withdrawal of two major low-cost air carriers are forcing Pittsburgh residents to imagine a life with fewer—and more expensive—travel options.The recent withdrawal of the air carrier JetBlue has led a Pittsburgh to New York fare to shoot up roughly 400 percent—from a standard round trip fare of around $200 to a fare of $874. JetBlue’s withdrawal comes on the heels of Southwest Airlines decision to abandon the Pittsburgh-Philadelphia market, which led to an increase in average fares of similar magnitude.

“It's predatory, just like predatory lenders,” Craig Conroy, an aviation researcher, told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. “That's the only thing you can say… When a low-cost carrier goes down, the others go into a feeding frenzy.”

A 2007 federal law shifts the operating costs for passenger rail lines under 750 miles to states in an attempt to create a more uniform cost allocation for passenger rail service across the U.S. Although the methodology has been agreed with states, Amtrak continues to work with the affected state departments of transportation on defining the precise numbers. However, many states are afflicted by the same budget woes straining purses in Washington, D.C., and there is concern that the new law could threaten existing service. The Pennyslvanian—which connects New York City; Newark and Trenton, New Jersey; Philadelphia; Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, and several intermediate towns, with 18 stops in all—is one of those services.

Western Pennsylvanians for Passenger Rail http://www.wpprrail.org/ is mobilizing citizens across the Commonwealth to urge their elected leaders to appropriate the necessary funds to continue running the Pennsylvanian. Dozens turned out last week at the Amtrak station in Huntingdon, Pennsylvania, for a “Save Our Train” rally to show support for the Pennsylvanian.

With new funding arrangements required to be in place by October 1, there is still much advocacy work to be done. What’s already clear, however, is how much locals in Western Pennsylvania are depending on this vital connection.

“It's pretty much a mess any way you look at it,” Ellen Wiener, vice president of Pittsburgh’s Atlas Travel, told the Post-Gazette. “It's scary when Megabus is looking to be your best option."

 

[philabos]

From NARP:

With new funding arrangements required to be in place by October 1, there is still much advocacy work to be done. What’s already clear, however, is how much locals in Western Pennsylvania are depending on this vital connection.

The Pennsylvania budget is a fixed amount dependent on its income. Tell the government what you want to see cut in order to pay for the train. The money does not fall from the sky.

 

[Ryan]

It's also possible to increase revenue to cover the difference. Earlier in the thread someone ran the numbers, they're ridiculously low per resident.

 

[philabos]

It's also possible to increase revenue to cover the difference. Earlier in the thread someone ran the numbers, they're ridiculously low per resident.

Pennsylvania has the tenth highest tax rate per resident in the US. http://247wallst.com/2011/07/21/108558/2/ .

If someone else has better numbers I missed it and stand ready to be corrected. I cannot seem to locate the post to which you refer.

 

[jis]

Pennsylvania and New York States are a study in contrast. Both had about the same level of cross state service on A Day -1. Since then Pennsylvania has consistently lost service and New York State has managed to maintain service and occasionally even enhance for a short period. New York of course was lucky in that Amtrak chose to maintain service through New York while New York kicked in a lot of capital fund to support such. Pennsylvani got into the game of capital support relatively late, and by then west of Harrisburg service ws already down to one train. And of course now they are trying hard to get rid of it, and will most likely succeed.

Considering that the Capitol Limited itself is not teh greatest of performers, and that it could have been imprioved using the Pennsylvanian, it is entirely possible that when push really comes to a big shove, Pittsburgh could be left with no train service. Not very likely that, but definitely a possibility. Unless there is more grassroots support from western PA, there is that danger.

 

[benjibear]

It's also possible to increase revenue to cover the difference. Earlier in the thread someone ran the numbers, they're ridiculously low per resident.

Pennsylvania has the tenth highest tax rate per resident in the US. http://247wallst.com/2011/07/21/108558/2/ .

If someone else has better numbers I missed it and stand ready to be corrected. I cannot seem to locate the post to which you refer.

I find this hard to beleive because I didn't even see Maryland on the list.

 

[Ryan]

It's also possible to increase revenue to cover the difference. Earlier in the thread someone ran the numbers, they're ridiculously low per resident.

Pennsylvania has the tenth highest tax rate per resident in the US. http://247wallst.com/2011/07/21/108558/2/ .If someone else has better numbers I missed it and stand ready to be corrected. I cannot seem to locate the post to which you refer.

$5.6 million dollar shortfall.
12.76 million PA residents.

44 cents a head isn't too much to ask. Part of living in society is paying for some things you don't use. On the flip side of that, I'm sure you use some things that the rest of us are helping to chip in for, so it's probably a wash.

I don't think that 44 cents a head is going to break the bank.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Yeah but those who are anti-rail or anti-tax are going to be like I'll be damned If Im going to support somebodys toy train.

 

[philabos]

It's also possible to increase revenue to cover the difference. Earlier in the thread someone ran the numbers, they're ridiculously low per resident.

Pennsylvania has the tenth highest tax rate per resident in the US. http://247wallst.com/2011/07/21/108558/2/ .If someone else has better numbers I missed it and stand ready to be corrected. I cannot seem to locate the post to which you refer.

$5.6 million dollar shortfall.
12.76 million PA residents.

44 cents a head isn't too much to ask. Part of living in society is paying for some things you don't use. On the flip side of that, I'm sure you use some things that the rest of us are helping to chip in for, so it's probably a wash.

I don't think that 44 cents a head is going to break the bank.

I would be interested to hear where you number comes from as the current FY2013 budget estimate is a shortfall of anywhere from $540 million to 1 Billion http://paindependent.com/2013/02/number-crunchers-offer-different-pa-deficit-estimates/

I certainly like your number better than what I am finding - so please let us know.