Pennsylvanian (the train(s) and route) discussion

[zephyr17]

2026 seems about right. Amtrak does not have 12 spare cars for two 2nd train sets. Maybe by 2026 it will have enough spare cars if not too many other routes take cars and especially food service cars. So the question to Penn DOT does Amtrak not have enough equipment now? If the Borealis could start up so soon hard questions need answering.

The Washington DOT Airos are supposed to be delivered by 2026. That'll free up a lot of Horizons from the Cascades, that Washington DOT and Sen. Maria Cantwell has to twist Stephen Gardner's arm into a pretzel to get.

 

[Willbridge]

The Washington DOT Airos are supposed to be delivered by 2026. That'll free up a lot of Horizons from the Cascades, that Washington DOT and Sen. Maria Cantwell has to twist Stephen Gardner's arm into a pretzel to get.

And two Oregon Talgo sets will be looking for a home in 2026.

 

[jis]

And two Oregon Talgo sets will be looking for a home in 2026.

You can rest assured thry won’t come to Pennsylvania

 

[JWM]

I look back at history, and the route was at least double tracked. The railroads are getting bitten by decisions to take up second track decades ago. Now it has to go back in.

 

[jis]

I look back at history, and the route was at least double tracked. The railroads are getting bitten by decisions to take up second track decades ago. Now it has to go back in.

Route of the Pennsylvanian is double track pretty much all the way and triple track at many places. The argument currently is about how much additional triple track is needed. It is a segment with some of the heaviest freight traffic in the US. One could argue that it was a mistake to take out some of the third and fourth tracks. But then the local tax rules unfortunately give a huge incentive to the railroads to pull up tracks if they are not fully occupied.

 

[JWM]

Route of the Pennsylvanian is double track pretty much all the way and triple track at many places. The argument currently is about how much additional triple track is needed. It is a segment with some of the heaviest freight traffic in the US. One could argue that it was a mistake to take out some of the third and fourth tracks. But then the local tax rules unfortunately give a huge incentive to the railroads to pull up tracks if they are not fully occupied.

That has been the case for over a century. Back on the 1950's the property taxes on the Albany NYC station, not the newer one on the east bank of the Hudson, was almost exactly the same as the support for the Albany airport.

 

[railiner]

But then the local tax rules unfortunately give a huge incentive to the railroads to pull up tracks if they are not fully occupied

How does that work?
Is the railroad tax lowered if they remove some tracks, but keep the entire ROW? Kind of assessed on the value?

Or do they have to sell or give up part of the ROW in addition, in order to lower their tax?

 

[zephyr17]

How does that work?
Is the railroad tax lowered if they remove some tracks, but keep the entire ROW? Kind of assessed on the value?

Or do they have to sell or give up part of the ROW in addition, in order to lower their tax?

Track being considered a property "improvement" and taxed as such is likely the reason. Pull up track and you remove the "improvement" and the increased tax associated with it.

An example of a "perverse incentive".

 

[Literalman]

The Talgos might work well on the hills and curves between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, but they need a special maintenance base, right? I can imagine one at Altoona, but probably not for only two consists.

 

[PaTrainFan]

The Talgos might work well on the hills and curves between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, but they need a special maintenance base, right? I can imagine one at Altoona, but probably not for only two consists.

Exactly right. I believe Airo equipment was already designated for The Pennsylvanian but not sure if that was determined before the new service was announced.

 

[Amtrak25]

You can rest assured they won’t come to Pennsylvania

They will if they use the scrapper in New Jersey.

 

[MARC Rider]

Track being considered a property "improvement" and taxed as such is likely the reason. Pull up track and you remove the "improvement" and the increased tax associated with it.

An example of a "perverse incentive".

Someone needs to call Henry George, the 19th Century economic thinker who proposed taxing only the value of the land, not the improvements. Taxing improvements leads to land speculation and stuff like surface parking lots on valuable downtown land.

 

[Willbridge]

Someone needs to call Henry George, the 19th Century economic thinker who proposed taxing only the value of the land, not the improvements. Taxing improvements leads to land speculation and stuff like surface parking lots on valuable downtown land.

My dad's father was a Georgist, and it was interesting to find that some of his WW1-era editorials on-line seem relevant. The ideas are still floating around, mainly due to issues like the one discussed here. Back in Henry George's day there was ill-feeling against big corporations -- often the railroads -- that held land grant lands off the market for various reasons. This led to the strength of the Progressive movement in the West and the "Oregon System" -- direct election of senators, the initiative and referendum ballot measures, etc. The property tax system was harder to tackle.

Back to the thread:
IIRC, all three of the West Coast states have centralized utility assessment. States like Pennsylvania and Ohio have an older system that treats railways as being just another business. In the early days, I remember that Ohio assessors tried to tax Amtrak.

The Lincoln Institute is descended from the Georgists, and they are interested in this issue: https://www.lincolninst.edu/app/upl...pdf#:~:text=At the same time, these centrally

 

[Amtrak25]

A 3rd track could be considered the Conemaugh Line, which I have been on with the Pennsylvanian a few times.

 

[cirdan]

Route of the Pennsylvanian is double track pretty much all the way and triple track at many places. The argument currently is about how much additional triple track is needed. It is a segment with some of the heaviest freight traffic in the US. One could argue that it was a mistake to take out some of the third and fourth tracks. But then the local tax rules unfortunately give a huge incentive to the railroads to pull up tracks if they are not fully occupied.

I heard, I think from an Amtrak staff member on the Pennsylvanian actually, that despite the track reduction, the route now carries more traffic than it did when it was quadruple track. Not sure if that would be in terms of number of trains or in terms of tonnage.

 

[frequentflyer]

2026 seems about right. Amtrak does not have 12 spare cars for two 2nd train sets. Maybe by 2026 it will have enough spare cars if not too many other routes take cars and especially food service cars. So the question to Penn DOT does Amtrak not have enough equipment now? If the Borealis could start up so soon hard questions need answering.

Where are the displaced Horizons from the Midwest?

 

[Amtrak25]

Where are the displaced Horizons from the Midwest?

Downeaster, and more sit in Beech Grove.

 

[zephyr17]

Downeaster, and more sit in Beech Grove.

 

[JWM]

Downeaster, and more sit in Beech Grove.

Seems like a lot of Amtrak's problems with equipment are sitting in Beech Grove.

 

[Amtrak25]

Seems like a lot of Amtrak's problems with equipment are sitting in Beech Grove.

The neo-Floridian and the Midwest-Florida marketing hype is a snow job to distract from that inconvenient truth. No one is talking about the Viewliner I and II sleepers and diners that are laying around either.

Amtrak got caught with their pants and underwear down after they were told to restore daily LD service.

 

[benya]

I saw the eastbound Penny in Altoona today and it had 9 coaches

 

[zephyr17]

I heard, I think from an Amtrak staff member on the Pennsylvanian actually, that despite the track reduction, the route now carries more traffic than it did when it was quadruple track. Not sure if that would be in terms of number of trains or in terms of tonnage.

That's not unlikely with CTC and bi-directional mulitple main track over timetable and trainorder dispatching with ABS and directional running back in the day. Probably more tonnoage and a lot fewer trains. That's been the trend for years and greatly accelerated with PSR.

 

[Acela150]

I saw the eastbound Penny in Altoona today and it had 9 coaches

They were carrying 10005 and 10002 which are non revenue cars.

 

[Amtrak25]

They were carrying 10005 and 10002 which are non revenue cars.

One or the other must have been on a train to Pontiac a few days ago, I think to discuss service over to Windsor ON.