Points Surge

[jis]

Don't understand what credit card switch has to do with anything. There were the usual hiccups but all in all that went of relatively smoothly or as smoothly as these sorts of things go.

Yes AGR's behavior on transitioning to 2.0 could have been better and explaining it does not constitute condoning it, nor does suggesting how one could better keep ones cool. I know you were upset but the level of upset and specially personal name calling on Anthony was completely uncalled for and irrational.

I suppose it did not bother me as much because it shared many features if the transition of United Mileage Plus as the Continental merger happened and it went to fare based accrual (though not redemption). My expectations were pretty low already and they were more or less met.

 

[dlagrua]

I don't want to beat this subject to death but the most disturbing part of AGR 2.0 is that you are allowed to buy points at .034 and then when redemption time comes the point is only worth.0289. That's totally unfair.

 

[jebr]

How is that "totally unfair?" Most loyalty plans I know of have a similar system (buying points is often much more expensive than what those points are worth when redeemed.) Honestly, I think it was a fluke that AGR 1.0 would have routes that were cheaper to buy points for than someone paying cash would get.

Anyone can still buy a ticket without points at the going rate, and that includes all applicable discounts as well. Amtrak is trying to make the rewards program favorable for them, and part of that is probably disincentivising people from buying a bunch of points to stockpile for later.

 

[Tennessee Traveler]

And for some of us who live in non-served areas like Nashville, TN, AGR 2 allows me to plan using Amsnag and book travel much easier than having to book based on the zone basis. How many zone would I have been charged to travel as I will in April on the Crescent NOLA to DC connecting to the Capitol Ltd DC to Chicago and connecting to the California Zephyr Chicago to Emeryville all in roomettes.. Well AGR 2 was only a little over 26000 points. That much better than traveling as I did last for 40000 pts in bedrooms Seattle to Sacramento to New Orleans since I was restricted to only 2 zones.

 

[Anderson]

And for some of us who live in non-served areas like Nashville, TN, AGR 2 allows me to plan using Amsnag and book travel much easier than having to book based on the zone basis. How many zone would I have been charged to travel as I will in April on the Crescent NOLA to DC connecting to the Capitol Ltd DC to Chicago and connecting to the California Zephyr Chicago to Emeryville all in roomettes.. Well AGR 2 was only a little over 26000 points. That much better than traveling as I did last for 40000 pts in bedrooms Seattle to Sacramento to New Orleans since I was restricted to only 2 zones.

In general, the main (short-term) gains are for "bad" trips under the old system such as a CLE-CHI or a "short" on the NEC. Most of these are tickets where anyone looking to maximize value wouldn't even consider a redemption if they could help it. Cases like what you described, where due to a thin network you're stuck stumbling drunkenly across zone boundaries, also fall under this banner. For the record, the first 2.0 redemption I made was a better deal than I would have managed under the old system (namely, a return from ATL to, on paper, RVR on Labor Day for about 12k points). Impossible date due to blackout and the price was cheaper even with the blackout removed. I'd happily have traded that away on balance (hell, I seem to recall noting once or twice that I expected a modest devaluation).

On the other hand, there are plenty of cases where the effects of AGR 2 defy polite metaphor, particularly given the penalty pricing (e.g. a penalty-priced roomette RVR-ORL in high bucket would run over 42,000 points versus 15k under the old system). Sans penalty pricing and non-blackout blackouts there were already plenty of ways it could go wrong for a pretty vanilla award (the change/cancellation penalties come to mind, particularly given the implementation issues there). I would say that whenever they made the decision to introduce that they made complete clowns of the marketing folks who set up the initial material (something about "redeeming points being surer/easier" or somesuch crap) but it had a load of "stuff can go wrong" elements to begin with.

 

[chakk]

I disagree with the immediate prior clmments avout benefits of AGR 2.0. So far, EVERY ld trip I have booked with points in roomettes has cost fewer points than an earlier equivalent trip I took with points under AGR 1.0. But note that all of these trips were for a single traveler.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Chakk:for those that live on the NEC ( Nothing else Counts) and for short two zone trips such as NYP or WAS-CHI it's true that AGR2.0 can cost less points.

As Anderson and others have said, the 10 and 20% point penalties for Modifications or Cancellations to an AGR Award just plain suck!

But the loss of the 100 point minimum per trip, the higher cost for buying points(devaluation), and the increase in rail fares and room charges, as well as the 2nd Person in a room being charged Rail Fare, along with the draconian yield management "bait and switch" pricing on holidays ( after the marketing liars hinted at no blackout dates prior to the roll out) are all huge negatives.

Most trips that require making connections also results in an increased cost in points, especially on cross country trips that used to be long two and three zone trips.

Additional the bean counter cuts to services such as the elimination of amenities and the loss of the Diner on the Silver Starvation and Lake Shore and the Chef on the CONO are other reasons that LD trips, whether Paid or Award Redemption, are now not such

a good idea. YMMV

 

[Shanghai]

Jim, I like your term of Silver Starvation!! I haven't ridden on it yet, but it is better

than flying or driving.

 

[jis]

I have ridden on it, and of course having a full Diner would be better. But it is far from starvation. I will be riding it again in early November. Can't beat the wholly affordable Sleeper fares.

 

[PVD]

I don't understand the issue that people have with different policies for different tiers. Why wouldn't a business favor what it sees as its better customers? It may not favor the occasional traveler such as myself, but it is a sound marketing concept used by almost all travel and hospitality companies.

 

[jis]

I consider "No Price" to be equivalent to a "Blackout", however they wish to refer to it. Well, unless you are Select Plus or Select Executive, in which case you evidently get a price. Some members are more equal than others, to paraphrase Orwell.

But as has been said, they make up the rules and can do what they want.

This is the case in all frequent user program that I participate in. Higher status members get more benefits. So I don't understand what the moaning is all about. The Select+ and Select-E also get more points when they travel. So why is so surprising that they would get some advantages while redeeming too? In the airline program that I participate in there are certain situations where a higher status member gets access to a seat on a flight which lower status members or non-members simply won't see as available.

The only thing where I would fault AGR is for possibly having oversold AGR 2.0 in their initial blurb. But as for the general nature of the program, it really is not different in general from any other similar program.

 

[dlagrua]

How is that "totally unfair?" Most loyalty plans I know of have a similar system (buying points is often much more expensive than what those points are worth when redeemed.) Honestly, I think it was a fluke that AGR 1.0 would have routes that were cheaper to buy points for than someone paying cash would get.

Anyone can still buy a ticket without points at the going rate, and that includes all applicable discounts as well. Amtrak is trying to make the rewards program favorable for them, and part of that is probably disincentivising people from buying a bunch of points to stockpile for later.

My point is that when you buy points, Amtrak is getting paid "up front" and many travelers put them in their account for future use. The smart business gives a discount when they are paid now and have to deliver in the future, if all all. If points cost more to buy than the value that they worth, then I would say that its foolish to buy them, unless you need just a few to top off a ticket purchase. Another way of looking at this is why pay more with purchased points if you can buy a ticket for less?

If that's the way the game must be played; since AGR 2.0 came into play, I have not purchased a single point. Hope that makes the Amtrak management happy.

 

[me_little_me]

How is that "totally unfair?" Most loyalty plans I know of have a similar system (buying points is often much more expensive than what those points are worth when redeemed.) Honestly, I think it was a fluke that AGR 1.0 would have routes that were cheaper to buy points for than someone paying cash would get.

Anyone can still buy a ticket without points at the going rate, and that includes all applicable discounts as well. Amtrak is trying to make the rewards program favorable for them, and part of that is probably disincentivising people from buying a bunch of points to stockpile for later.

My point is that when you buy points, Amtrak is getting paid "up front" and many travelers put them in their account for future use. The smart business gives a discount when they are paid now and have to deliver in the future, if all all. If points cost more to buy than the value that they worth, then I would say that its foolish to buy them, unless you need just a few to top off a ticket purchase. Another way of looking at this is why pay more with purchased points if you can buy a ticket for less?

If that's the way the game must be played; since AGR 2.0 came into play, I have not purchased a single point. Hope that makes the Amtrak management happy.

More than that, in the old days, there were fixed points per segment (zone system, NEC, etc) so if you had just under what you needed for a segment, it would be worth buying those points to take you over the top to avoid an inflated cash price. Now, you don't have fixed numbers so one day, it is x points and another it is y points so you can pick your days or you can take part of your route with points and buy a ticket for the rest when the dates are fixed or no bargains available. Moreover, you can take part of the trip in coach and part in sleeper or business class and since each portion is priced separately, you can use what points you have and $$ for the remainder. For example, in 1.0, Atlanta to El Paso was one zone so if you didn't have enough points for a sleeper, you bought them. Now, you can buy the sleeper from NOL to ELP with points and buy a ticket for coach or BC from ATL to NOL. Doesn't pay to buy the points for that segment.

In addition, you might have to pay a higher "price" in points than in cash for a particular trip. So point buying has become a sucker deal in many cases. I, too, haven't bought anything since 2.0 although I did a lot of point buying in 1.0.

 

[Anderson]

Most of the "wins" were on short two-zone awards and/or in the dead of winter on the Western LDs. I'd be a bit shocked if there were more than a few three-zones that "won", however, and "wins" are also quite uncommon within the Eastern Zone if you had an inkling of how to handle your points, particularly given the penalty fares and cancellation penalties (the latter of which have, IIRC, never quite been properly implemented with regard to simple changes).

 

[Carolina Special]

I have a three zone CVS-BEN trip coming up next month that cost me 27k points versus the old 35k points standard.

Of course, that is technically from the middle of one zone to the middle of another zone: not zone end to zone end. And I'm taking the cheaper CL/TE route instead of the shorter, but more expensive, Crescent/SL route. For what it is worth.