Policy change for loophole trips?

[soitgoes]

While obviously I liked the old policy better, the new rule--if it is a new rule--makes sense.

In fact, a few years back I had expected to be charged 20K points for a roomette booking I made that was clearly a two-zone trip despite the fact that the start and end points were in the same zone. I was surprised to be charged just 15K. I was happy about it, of course, but in all honesty it's absurd.

As for AGR Insider on Flyertalk, AGR reps have long read FT. One doesn't need to post to read.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I was also informed by an inside source that closing this specific routing and that my trip raised a few red flags bEcause it forced departments to talk to eachother the question is where do you draw the line? There are people who need to go between Omaha and Wolf Point for instance.... They have no other choice.

The simple fact is that the zone system is ineffecive. SEA to LAX is over 30 hours with dive meals and is one zone whereas CHI to WAS is about 17 hours three meals and two zones IMHO there has to bea better way maybe charge points at a hourly rate?

 

[RRrich]

In the past I have been retrieving my AGR for high value loophole trips and paying cash for the trips I take "to get somewhere". If I can no longer get high value for my points I will retrieve them for lower value, for the trips I "have to take" and I will no longer ride amtrak for recreation - its too expensive. I suspect this will cost amtrak money, specially if others do the same thing.

 

[Guest]

I was also informed by an inside source that closing this specific routing and that my trip raised a few red flags bEcause it forced departments to talk to eachother the question is where do you draw the line? There are people who need to go between Omaha and Wolf Point for instance.... They have no other choice.
The simple fact is that the zone system is ineffecive. SEA to LAX is over 30 hours with dive meals and is one zone whereas CHI to WAS is about 17 hours three meals and two zones IMHO there has to bea better way maybe charge points at a hourly rate?

So we know where to direct the stoneings now.

Some folks just don't understand that when you have a good thing going you don't make it complicated. It is called being slick.

 

[Guest]

In the past I have been retrieving my AGR for high value loophole trips and paying cash for the trips I take "to get somewhere". If I can no longer get high value for my points I will retrieve them for lower value, for the trips I "have to take" and I will no longer ride amtrak for recreation - its too expensive. I suspect this will cost amtrak money, specially if others do the same thing.

they don't care about people who take these kinds of trips. you know AGR is all about the NEC and everything else is just an afterthought. they didn't do enough afterthinking and now they catching up.

 

[soitgoes]

The simple fact is that the zone system is ineffecive. SEA to LAX is over 30 hours with dive meals and is one zone whereas CHI to WAS is about 17 hours three meals and two zones IMHO there has to bea better way maybe charge points at a hourly rate?

Every system will have its good redemption values and poor redemption values. The zone system seems perfectly reasonable, but it does make sense to charge based on the number of zones traveled through. Charging a two zone rate from Wolf Point to Omaha seems just fine.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I have to agree that AGR is a NEC oriented entity but look at redemptions the vast majority are for NEC or other day services very very few are sleeper redemptions so in the long run this won't affect Amtrak all that much

and the guest will refrain from stoning me

 

[the_traveler]

I agree that AGR is mainly for the NEC riders. But I don't always the zone system doesn't make sense.

I can go from KIN to BUF for 3,000 points (about 14 hours) for a northeast zone coach award. Yet, if I want to go from BUF-CHI (about 9 hours) would cost me 8,000 for a 2 zone coach award, or 20,000 for a 2 zone roomette!

Even if I "play by the rules", POR-MIA or POR-ATL is a 1 zone award. But if I want to go from CLE to SOB, that would cost me a 2 zone award - even though it is only a couple of hours.

 

[Bigval109]

While obviously I liked the old policy better, the new rule--if it is a new rule--makes sense.
In fact, a few years back I had expected to be charged 20K points for a roomette booking I made that was clearly a two-zone trip despite the fact that the start and end points were in the same zone. I was surprised to be charged just 15K. I was happy about it, of course, but in all honesty it's absurd.

As for AGR Insider on Flyertalk, AGR reps have long read FT. One doesn't need to post to read.

I was told I was ranting when I said this was going to happen. I also asked will we have to be careful what we post since AGR insider aka 006 was reporting to "M". Let's not forget that if this is your job and you are getting paid to find something you will. We just have to hope the damage is small and the rest of the special trips remain in tack. I was planning and saving to perhaps take one of the special trip next year. I wanted to ride down to alt and take a two zone reward from atl to lax.

 

[AlanB]

AGR was aware of "loophole" trips long before the AGR Insider came to FlyerTalk.

In fact it was probably at least 2 years ago that changes were made to curtail people booking out of Atlanta to the West Coast. Agents were supposed to question you if your address wasn't Atlanta and you requested such a trip.

Additionally steps were taken to stop people who would book a trip to/from Atlanta and just throw away the ATL-WAS tickets and only use the WAS to the west coast tickets.

These threads and the advent of AGR Insider had nothing to do with the recent changes.

 

[soitgoes]

I was told I was ranting when I said this was going to happen. I also asked will we have to be careful what we post since AGR insider aka 006 was reporting to "M".

Oh, good grief. If there is one certainty in award programs, it is this: loopholes will eventually get closed. Over time, loopholes become too popular to ignore.

AGR has a long history of making changes whenever they feel like it.

It's not a result of having an AGR Insider handle on Flyertalk.

Just some examples:

1) Instituting yearly transfer caps for outbound transfers

2) Instituting transfer qualifications; taking away online transfer request ability

3) Changing AGR:Choice redemption rate

Etc. etc.

AGR was aware of "loophole" trips long before the AGR Insider came to FlyerTalk.These threads and the advent of AGR Insider had nothing to do with the recent changes.

+1

Except all of the threads may have had something to do with it because the collection of various possibilities under names like "Loophole trips" certainly gave more face time to the idea and thus probably led to more people making such trips.

 

[alanh]

Additionally steps were taken to stop people who would book a trip to/from Atlanta and just throw away the ATL-WAS tickets and only use the WAS to the west coast tickets.

I suspect this sort of abuse was a bigger deal than people actually riding Seattle to Atlanta. Taking a full loophole trip is one thing , but this would let you shave a zone off an award. You could, at least a couple of months ago, still book SEA-ATL as a two-zone trip (I'm travelling it next month as my signature indicates.) However, if you throw away the WAS-ATL segment, it turns a 3 zone 50K bedroom award into a 2 zone 30K bedroom award.

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

If to many loopholes get removed The_Traveler may need medical or psychiatric attention. :unsure: :unsure:

Also a plus for Amtrak, they are paid by the vendors for the points, and until points are redesigned their value is carried as a liability on the books.

 

[the_traveler]

If to many loopholes get removed The_Traveler may need medical or psychiatric attention. :unsure: :unsure:

Many people say I already do! :lol:

I already am being treated for severe traveler-itis! I can't do point runs this week from KIN, so I'm going to PDX on Wednesday to get some point runs in!

 

[jmbgeg]

Aloha
If to many loopholes get removed The_Traveler may need medical or psychiatric attention. :unsure: :unsure:

Also a plus for Amtrak, they are paid by the vendors for the points, and until points are redesigned their value is carried as a liability on the books.

Too funny.

 

[saxman]

Yesterday evening I called to book the KCY to CBS loophole. The AGR agent informed me that it would be a 2 zone trip. I replied that since Kansas City and Columbus are in the same zone, shouldn't it be a 1 zone trip? She said that it used to be a 1 zone trip, but due to a change in policy, it's now considered a 2 zone trip.

From the AGR website, under the "Redeem" tab:

"Rewards are determined by the number of zones you travel across."

Oh well, maybe they'll be more generous with ways to earn points or increase the number of double, triple, etc. promotions.

Thats always been posted as the zones you cross. Thats why I never knew there was such thing as a loophole until about two years ago. But that wording has never changed.

 

[RRrich]

Yesterday evening I called to book the KCY to CBS loophole. The AGR agent informed me that it would be a 2 zone trip. I replied that since Kansas City and Columbus are in the same zone, shouldn't it be a 1 zone trip? She said that it used to be a 1 zone trip, but due to a change in policy, it's now considered a 2 zone trip.

From the AGR website, under the "Redeem" tab:

"Rewards are determined by the number of zones you travel across."

"Rewards are determined by the number of zones you travel across."

What does 'travel across" mean? - perhaps to go from one side to the other? If you go from the Midwest to LAX have you traveled across the West Zone? I guess you have, but if you go from the Midwest to EMY have you traveled across the West zone, ALL the way across? I wonder.

 

[saxman]

Yesterday evening I called to book the KCY to CBS loophole. The AGR agent informed me that it would be a 2 zone trip. I replied that since Kansas City and Columbus are in the same zone, shouldn't it be a 1 zone trip? She said that it used to be a 1 zone trip, but due to a change in policy, it's now considered a 2 zone trip.

From the AGR website, under the "Redeem" tab:

"Rewards are determined by the number of zones you travel across."

"Rewards are determined by the number of zones you travel across."

What does 'travel across" mean? - perhaps to go from one side to the other? If you go from the Midwest to LAX have you traveled across the West Zone? I guess you have, but if you go from the Midwest to EMY have you traveled across the West zone, ALL the way across? I wonder.

I usually thought it as crossing a zone border. If you don't cross a border, its one zone. So KCY to CBS you cross a zone border twice. Same with SDL-west coast.

 

[RRrich]

"Rewards are determined by the number of zones you travel across."

What does 'travel across" mean? - perhaps to go from one side to the other? If you go from the Midwest to LAX have you traveled across the West Zone? I guess you have, but if you go from the Midwest to EMY have you traveled across the West zone, ALL the way across? I wonder.

I usually thought it as crossing a zone border. If you don't cross a border, its one zone. So KCY to CBS you cross a zone border twice. Same with SDL-west coast.

saxman seems to be saying the number of zones is equal to the number of zones you travel in - a very resonable definition - but AGR says "Rewards are determined by the number of zones you travel across." Two different things: one reasonable and easy to understand, one not; one official, one not.

Too bad the reasonable and easy (saxman's) is not official!

 

[TVRM610]

If someone wants a 2-zone trip could they not still book ATL-SEA and be routed the following way:

ATL-NOL

NOL-CHI

CHI-SEA

It's the same amount of train riding, but you still only travel through 2 zones. Sure you have a hotel night.. but that would still work correct?

 

[RRrich]

Wifey and I I would like to go from STL (where we live) to ATL to see our friends Mary & Bob.

Wifey does NOT want to go via CHI - too far North or WAS - too far East.

No reason to go into the EAST ZONE at all.

Should we drive?

 

[Ispolkom]

If someone wants a 2-zone trip could they not still book ATL-SEA and be routed the following way:
ATL-NOL

NOL-CHI

CHI-SEA

It's the same amount of train riding, but you still only travel through 2 zones. Sure you have a hotel night.. but that would still work correct?

AGR generally won't book itineraries that don't appear in amtrak.com. And amtrak.com generally doesn't display itineraries that require overnights. Some people have had different experiences, but I've had much more success booking one-zone AGR awards that cross into other zones than I have booking trips that require overnight stays.

 

[the_traveler]

Wifey and I I would like to go from STL (where we live) to ATL to see our friends Mary & Bob.
Wifey does NOT want to go via CHI - too far North or WAS - too far East.

No reason to go into the EAST ZONE at all.

Should we drive?

The only way to do that without going to CHI is to go

1. Go by train STL-SAS
   
2. Overnight in SAS
   
3. Go by train SAS-NOL
   
4. Overnight in NOL
   
5. Go by train NOL-ATL
   

 

[RRrich]

Wifey and I I would like to go from STL (where we live) to ATL to see our friends Mary & Bob.
Wifey does NOT want to go via CHI - too far North or WAS - too far East.

No reason to go into the EAST ZONE at all.

Should we drive?

The only way to do that without going to CHI is to go

1. Go by train STL-SAS
   
2. Overnight in SAS
   
3. Go by train SAS-NOL
   
4. Overnight in NOL
   
5. Go by train NOL-ATL
   

Wifey is not the train rider that we are - If I suggest the above route she'll probaboy have a cow - and things were bad enough when Mary had a lamb! :lol:

 

[MrFSS]

Wifey and I I would like to go from STL (where we live) to ATL to see our friends Mary & Bob.
Wifey does NOT want to go via CHI - too far North or WAS - too far East.

No reason to go into the EAST ZONE at all.

Should we drive?

The only way to do that without going to CHI is to go

1. Go by train STL-SAS
   
2. Overnight in SAS
   
3. Go by train SAS-NOL
   
4. Overnight in NOL
   
5. Go by train NOL-ATL
   

Wifey is not the train rider that we are - If I suggest the above route she'll probaboy have a cow - and things were bad enough when Mary had a lamb! :lol:

Maybe its time for a new wifey!! :lol: :lol: :lol: