Politicians Are Gearing Up To Kill Passenger Rail Projects

[Cristobal]

I was just coming here to see what the disaster of yesterdays election might mean for Amtrak. I guess it is going to be a lot worse than I thought. I am beyond upset that yesterday failed the way it did. Nothing good will come out of this. We can just hang in there until 2012 and save this country from the idiots who are going to destroy it.

For this in Ohio and Wis. sorry about the failure of your voters *hugs to all*

???

I think that your blame is completely misplaced here.

 

[eagle628]

Sigh...in one night all of the progress made in the past few years comes to a screeching halt.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Sigh...in one night all of the progress made in the past few years comes to a screeching halt.

It's halted for now, but the next question is how much this new wave of anti-rail politicians will be able roll back funding to pre-Obama levels. On the plus side, can you imagine where we'd be if McCain had been elected instead?

 

[Kurn]

I think they will try to defund or severely curtail Amtrak as a "feel good" measure.How far this gets is anyone's guess.Betcha they shovel tons of money to the airlines,though.

 

[Gratt]

Sigh...in one night all of the progress made in the past few years comes to a screeching halt.

I can more than understand that attitude but if we don’t keep moving forward we will always get held back.

Now let’s get to a bad scenario the WI and OH rail plans are scraped. Where will the money go? The last set of rounds went to blue or swing states. Maybe we can find a Red state to put some real HSR money in? Texas…maybe… h34r: The other alternative is plowing it in to projects in CA FL and in the north east, but it is hard to change hearts and minds with the latter.

 

[afigg]

Sigh...in one night all of the progress made in the past few years comes to a screeching halt.

The election yesterday was bad news for passenger rail and transit, but let's not overreact. There is $10.5 billion of HSIPR funding that has been awarded and while I expect some Republicans will try to rescind the funds, I expect Obama will prevent it and the state representatives & Governors who are spending the money will fight to keep it. The $8 billion of stimulus funding has only just started to flow to actual construction projects with the big ramp-up of work to start in many places next spring. If the new Governor of Ohio cancels the 3C project, the $400 million goes back into the HSIPR stimulus pool. However, in Wisconsin, despite the $800 million being fully obligated, I could see it playing out where Gov Walker refuses to spend the money and the $800 million goes into limbo for a year or 2.

Some of the critical parts of the $10.5 billion that hopefully will go forward are the $100s of million for Preliminary Engineering and Tier II EIS efforts. These are critical because this stage has to be done before a decision to proceed with funding and construction can start. Some people bash these as more studies, but these are more than feasibility studies which are a dime a dozen, but critical engineering and design steps that have to be done before construction can begin. Since these are typically 2 to 4 years efforts, get them done and provided there is a more favorable climate for HSIPR in 3-4 years, then the funds can be allocated and work can start.

Amtrak got $1.3 billion of stimulus funds which they are using to clear a backlog of long standing need to fix items including wrecked cars. Amtrak revenue is up which helps a lot. Amtrak has placed orders for 130 Viewliner II cars and 70 electric locomotives to address the most critical equipment issues in their fleet. Some Republicans may try to kill those orders, but there will be factories in NY and CA building the Viewliners & ACs-64 locos which the state Congressional delegations are going to fight to keep the jobs. The FY2011 transportation funding was stalled in Congress before the election, but the House did authorize over $1.7 billion for Amtrak, $1.4 billion for HSIPR, and IIRC, $400 million for Tiger (3?) funding. The pending Senate bill has higher amounts for Amtrak and Tiger grants. So, once the FY11 bills are taken care of in the lame duck session, Amtrak and HSIPR should get decent funding to cover the next year.

Yes, what happened was bad news for transit for the next 2 years. But there is a $10.5 billion backlog of HSIPR funds along with several hundred million of Tiger grants to work through the next few years that will improve Amtrak service and take major steps towards true HSR in California & Florida. The Obama administration has made enough of a public commitment for improved passenger rail that I don't see them walking away from it over the next 2 years. Just expect a lot of shouting and posturing by the various groups in Congress over the next 2 years. Which pretty much describes a typical session of Congress.

 

[transit54]

Afigg, thanks for the detailed and well informed post. While I agree that the climate for rail and transit is not looking great on a national basis, I'm not predicting a return to the environments of the last thirty years. For one, the Obama administration (and Biden in particular) understands the importance of funding Amtrak, whereas previous administrations of either party didn't, or simply were willing to pull support for parts of Amtrak for political purposes. Additionally, as you pointed out, there's still a lot of money on the table and it will take some time to catch up on these projects. Ridership numbers are better than ever, so there's a strong case to keep funding Amtrak.

That being said, if any governors feel the need to cancel their rail projects, we'd be happy to take your funds here in Vermont. By a small margin, we elected Peter Shumlin last night, to replace Jim Douglas, who was at best indifferent about rail. I saw Shumlin speak a few weeks ago at a rail advocacy meeting and he's very pro-rail and one of the few politicians that has realistic views about our energy situation (he spoke at length about how we're going to be facing higher energy prices in the future - which few politicians will acknowledge - and how that makes investing in efficient infrastructure like rail and transit a necessity now).

We could use another $50m for the western corridor (extending the Ethan Allen to Burlington) and there's far off talk about eventually running the Vermonter to Montreal. And I'm sure we could dig up some more projects if the money was available.

But I wish members in other states the best of luck. I still think there's a bright future ahead for passenger rail in the US, now that there's some momentum behind the issue.

 

[NE933]

What are your thoughts and/or theories why progress at Amtrak crawled? Is it because Obama didn't yell loud enough when confronted? Joe Boardman too comfortable or distracted? So much deterioration that it robbed them of energy? Too dumb to know the time of day?

Thanks for your input; i'll be following this thread tonight to see the answers.

rje

 

[transit54]

Has progress at Amtrak crawled? I wouldn't agree with that statement.

I can't speak for most projects out there, but most of the $8b of funding is only being released now. Part of that is that things in government move slowly, part of that is that the FRA has really had to transform from a safety based agency to take on the responsibilities of a grant-making agency. With only a handful of exceptions, there hasn't been anything in the way of national grants to improve passenger rail in decades. Things take time to ramp up.

Vermont's improvements to the Vermonter line was the second project to have money awarded (after the Downeaster improvements for Maine) and that took place only about a month ago. Already welded rail is being delivered and installed starting in St Albans and working south. The NECR hopes to have 24 miles installed be Thanksgiving. I know Maine is also getting rail shipments and installing rail in and north of Portland.

So I'd have to disagree - I wouldn't say Amtrak is crawling. Besides, most of the projects are in the hands of states or other entities and are not directly being completed by Amtrak.

 

[AlanB]

However, in Wisconsin, despite the $800 million being fully obligated, I could see it playing out where Gov Walker refuses to spend the money and the $800 million goes into limbo for a year or 2.

Actually he can't do that. The Stimulus monies have a time line by which they must be fully spent. If he fails to spend the money and have the service up and running, then he defaults on the conditions of the grant and he must repay the entire $800+M to the Fed.

Amtrak has placed orders for 130 Viewliner II cars and 70 electric locomotives to address the most critical equipment issues in their fleet. Some Republicans may try to kill those orders, but there will be factories in NY and CA building the Viewliners & ACs-64 locos which the state Congressional delegations are going to fight to keep the jobs.

Actualy both those projects would be pretty easy to cancel, since at least last I knew Congress had not funded either one. Amtrak placed those orders using a bit of spare cash for the downpayments. So at best only design work is currently underway on the Viewliners and I doubt that anything much has been started on the locos. So again, sadly killing those two projects would be pretty easy.

However, with a split Congress, my bet is that Congress won't kill that funding. It's not worth the political fight for either party.

 

[mercedeslove]

I was just coming here to see what the disaster of yesterdays election might mean for Amtrak. I guess it is going to be a lot worse than I thought. I am beyond upset that yesterday failed the way it did. Nothing good will come out of this. We can just hang in there until 2012 and save this country from the idiots who are going to destroy it.

For this in Ohio and Wis. sorry about the failure of your voters *hugs to all*

???

I think that your blame is completely misplaced here.

How so? Had those two states voted blue things would be different.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Kaisich can't do anything, thankfully. His plan for the $400 million3C grant is, and I'm not making this up... to give it to the freight railroads

Yes. The people and the government will LOVE the idea of giving $400 million to a corporation. Unlike other government programs at least this one has strings attached to it, silly people can't just throw it around.

 

[Cristobal]

I was just coming here to see what the disaster of yesterdays election might mean for Amtrak. I guess it is going to be a lot worse than I thought. I am beyond upset that yesterday failed the way it did. Nothing good will come out of this. We can just hang in there until 2012 and save this country from the idiots who are going to destroy it.

For this in Ohio and Wis. sorry about the failure of your voters *hugs to all*

???

I think that your blame is completely misplaced here.

How so? Had those two states voted blue things would be different.

And if a frog had wings...

I feel that the results of this election were driven by things far, far greater than the flyspeck that is Amtrak. So, placing this "failure" squarely in the laps of the voters themselves is both simplistic and misguided.

IMHO of course.

 

[Ryan]

The results of the election still fall at the feet of the voters, regardless of their motivation to decide.

 

[jis]

And if a frog had wings...

I feel that the results of this election were driven by things far, far greater than the flyspeck that is Amtrak. So, placing this "failure" squarely in the laps of the voters themselves is both simplistic and misguided.

IMHO of course.

So your HO is that the people that were elected got elected because something other than the way the voters voted? Amazing!

No matter what motivated the voters to vote the way they did, nothing other than their votes determined the results, or at least I believe that the state of affairs in the US at present is not so bad as to have election results not be correlated very strongly with the votes cast. Of course you or anyone else is free to believe whatever.

 

[PRR 60]

However, in Wisconsin, despite the $800 million being fully obligated, I could see it playing out where Gov Walker refuses to spend the money and the $800 million goes into limbo for a year or 2.

Actually he can't do that. The Stimulus monies have a time line by which they must be fully spent. If he fails to spend the money and have the service up and running, then he defaults on the conditions of the grant and he must repay the entire $800+M to the Fed.

The HSR program is not the "stimulus" program. There is no hard deadlines. Repayment is limited to any actual funds spent.

 

[PRR 60]

And if a frog had wings...

I feel that the results of this election were driven by things far, far greater than the flyspeck that is Amtrak. So, placing this "failure" squarely in the laps of the voters themselves is both simplistic and misguided.

IMHO of course.

So your HO is that the people that were elected got elected because something other than the way the voters voted? Amazing!

No matter what motivated the voters to vote the way they did, nothing other than their votes determined the results, or at least I believe that the state of affairs in the US at present is not so bad as to have election results not be correlated very strongly with the votes cast. Of course you or anyone else is free to believe whatever.

I think what was meant was that the reason people voted as they did had very little or nothing to do with Amtrak or rail. The reasons for the election "shellacking" were far more fundemental than liking or not liking Amtrak. The votes made were reactions by the voters to the behavior of the party in charge over the last two years. If you agree with the judgement of the voters, then the fault was not the voters but the behavior of the majority party. If you disagree with that judgement, then the voters were simply dumb.

 

[AlanB]

However, in Wisconsin, despite the $800 million being fully obligated, I could see it playing out where Gov Walker refuses to spend the money and the $800 million goes into limbo for a year or 2.

Actually he can't do that. The Stimulus monies have a time line by which they must be fully spent. If he fails to spend the money and have the service up and running, then he defaults on the conditions of the grant and he must repay the entire $800+M to the Fed.

The HSR program is not the "stimulus" program. There is no hard deadlines. Repayment is limited to any actual funds spent.

The initial $8B was indeed part of the Stimulus package. The subsequent grants given out this year are not.

And yes, by repaying the $800M I meant that they would send back any unspent funds that they were still holding as well as repay any funds that were actually spent.

 

[dlagrua]

The world isn't going to end with the Nov 2nd election. Amtrak will live on, & civil rights won't be recinded. The criminals on Wall Street will continue to get government money and wars will rage on. Its all business as usual for the banks, corporate interests and financiers that own this country. Now if passenger car manufacturer CAF was smart they would start greasing the pockets of and making campaign contributions to the candidiates right now. That would guarantee that the Viewliner order is completed. Amtraks existence or fate will be decided not by either party but by how much money the passenger car manufacturers can put in the politicans pockets. Corporations buy off the politicans every day and no one says anything about it. Thats the game. Sad but true.

 

[EB_OBS]

However, in Wisconsin, despite the $800 million being fully obligated, I could see it playing out where Gov Walker refuses to spend the money and the $800 million goes into limbo for a year or 2.

Actually he can't do that. The Stimulus monies have a time line by which they must be fully spent. If he fails to spend the money and have the service up and running, then he defaults on the conditions of the grant and he must repay the entire $800+M to the Fed.

Amtrak has placed orders for 130 Viewliner II cars and 70 electric locomotives to address the most critical equipment issues in their fleet. Some Republicans may try to kill those orders, but there will be factories in NY and CA building the Viewliners & ACs-64 locos which the state Congressional delegations are going to fight to keep the jobs.

Actualy both those projects would be pretty easy to cancel, since at least last I knew Congress had not funded either one. Amtrak placed those orders using a bit of spare cash for the downpayments. So at best only design work is currently underway on the Viewliners and I doubt that anything much has been started on the locos. So again, sadly killing those two projects would be pretty easy.

However, with a split Congress, my bet is that Congress won't kill that funding. It's not worth the political fight for either party.

Don't forget to mention that both those orders are creating jobs, which most exit polls listed at the #1 priority for most voters.

 

[Railroad Bill]

Newly elected Ohio Governor John Kasich had his first press conference yesterday and among his many statements was this one, when asked about the future of the 3C Corridor train from Cleveland to Cincinnati

" THAT TRAIN IS DEAD!" With a cocky smile on his face. :angry:

 

[PRR 60]

The initial $8B was indeed part of the Stimulus package. The subsequent grants given out this year are not.

And yes, by repaying the $800M I meant that they would send back any unspent funds that they were still holding as well as repay any funds that were actually spent.

The initial $8 billion in High Speed Rail funding was appropriated by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA), but the spending of that money is governed by the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act of 2008 (PRIIA), not ARRA. As such, it is not subject to the "shovel ready" scheduling requirements of the ARRA (the so-called Stimulus). I'm sure there are schedule milestones attached to each HSR grant, but they are not the same as those applied to ARRA proects like Amtrak's Lamokin Convertor and Wilmington DE station jobs.

When a state like Wisconsin gets a federal grant for any project, they do not get the grant as a lump sum up front. The grant funds are paid to the state incrementally more or less in line with the expenditures. Although Wisconsin has been granted $818 million for the Milwaukee to Madison rail project, most of that money remains in the federal treasury. If Wisconsin decides to cancel the rail project they will need to repay the federal treasury all amounts that they actually received. That amount will be far less than $818 million.

 

[Kurn]

Ohio is one of the most anti passenger rail states there is.Former governor Taft once talked about getting Amtrak out of Ohio altogether.Could Kasich do that?Could a governor ban Amtrak from his state?

 

[AlanB]

Ohio is one of the most anti passenger rail states there is.Former governor Taft once talked about getting Amtrak out of Ohio altogether.Could Kasich do that?Could a governor ban Amtrak from his state?

No, he can't do that. Amtrak is Federal and technically part of interstate commerce, which is the domain of the Fed and not the states.

He could pull any state funding of stations, but that would be about it.

 

[LA Resident]

Link to Full Story...

In Wisconsin, which got more than $810 million in federal stimulus money to build a train line between Milwaukee and Madison, Scott Walker, the Milwaukee County executive and Republican candidate for governor, has made his opposition to the project central to his campaign. In Ohio, the Republican candidate for governor, John Kasich, is vowing to kill a $400 million federal stimulus project to link Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati by rail. In Florida, Rick Scott, the Republican candidate for governor, has questioned whether the state should invest in the planned rail line from Orlando to Tampa. The state got $1.25 billion in federal stimulus money for the project, but it will cost at least twice that much to complete. And the nation’s most ambitious high-speed rail project, California’s $45 billion plan to link Los Angeles and San Francisco with trains that would go up to 220 miles per hour, could be delayed if Meg Whitman, a Republican, is elected governor. “In the face of the state’s current fiscal crisis, Meg doesn’t believe we can afford the costs associated with new high-speed rail at this time,” said Tucker Bounds, a campaign spokesman. With recent polls showing all of the anti-rail Republican candidates leading or within striking distance of their pro-rail Democratic rivals, it is possible they could be elected and try to stop the train projects.

Face it rail fans, in many cases a vote for the GOP is a vote against passenger rail. I know Amtrak has survived many attacks in the past and some AU members apparently think they always will, but that's frankly an absurd position. Eventually the GOP will get their way and Amtrak will be gone. And you can still keep chatting about what might have been, but it won't matter any more. 2010 is a critical year for passenger rail, so put your vote where your mouth is!

From NY Times Novembe4r 4

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/04/a-high-speed-derailment/?hp