Progress on service to Madison WI

[WICT106]

FYI: Madison Passenger Rail meeting There's an option to sign up for a Zoom session, as well.

 

[jis]

https://www.cbs58.com/news/no-state-funding-vos-voices-opposition-to-amtrak-expansion-proposal

 

[Willbridge]

https://www.cbs58.com/news/no-state-funding-vos-voices-opposition-to-amtrak-expansion-proposal

Whew! I was afraid that we wouldn't have Wisconsin to kick around anymore.

 

[TransitTyrant]

They won’t support a short extension to Madison but they will support a new round trip to the Twin Cities and 10 Hiawatha trips?

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

The funny thing is, well, not really funny, but ironic, is that Scott Walker, when he was Governor (and I know this is like beating a dead horse in repeating it) was in favor of Hiawatha expansion (and possibly/probably Madison service) just not the specific Talgo HSR plans.

 

[Anderson]

They won’t support a short extension to Madison but they will support a new round trip to the Twin Cities and 10 Hiawatha trips?

The Hiawatha bit is basically commuter service. I forget the funding split between IL and WI, but I believe that for WI it is (relatively) inexpensive, and it's also a "proven" thing.

 

[TransitTyrant]

The Hiawatha bit is basically commuter service. I forget the funding split between IL and WI, but I believe that for WI it is (relatively) inexpensive, and it's also a "proven" thing.

Wisconsin pays for 75% of its cost, meanwhile the Madison train is just a Hiawatha extension ~80 miles.

 

[WICT106]

No, no, no -- Walker supported train service expansion, just not to / through Madison. He was elected on an "anti- Madison" platform. Ya don't want "those liberals" getting anything special.

 

[TransitTyrant]

So how about good old fashioned bipartisanship. The liberals in Madison get their train while the Republicans up in the Fox Valley get a train to Green Bay?

 

[railiner]

It should be doable to increase those speeds - the Chicago-Minneapolis routes were (once) the highest speed regular service trains of their time.

Indeed…Train’s Magazine used to do an annual speed survey, and the Burlington’s “Morning Zephyr” was continuously the fastest train in America, until the Penn Central Metroliner came along…

 

[WICT106]

So how about good old fashioned bipartisanship. The liberals in Madison get their train while the Republicans up in the Fox Valley get a train to Green Bay?

Walker got elected on an "anti- Madison" platform, and also an "anti- city folks" platform. That was combined with the fact that the vast, overwhelming majority of Wisconsinites drive everywhere, and are accustomed to driving everywhere, and have **never** taken a train trip, ever. That "cars only" mindset is strong in many parts of the nation: "There's no point in taking a train when I can just drive." That mindset is what Walker took advantage of in order to get elected. They might not support trains to Green Bay either, for that reason.

 

[Willbridge]

Indeed…Train’s Magazine used to do an annual speed survey, and the Burlington’s “Morning Zephyr” was continuously the fastest train in America, until the Penn Central Metroliner came along…

In my 1967 trek to the East (Chicago) I alighted from the North Coast Limited in Minneapolis and then caught the Morning Zephyr. That was specifically to ride the fastest scheduled train in the U.S., per the Trains annual speed survey. I enjoyed a tasty breakfast and conversation with a Columbia University professor. The water in our glasses barely jiggled.

Lv. St. Paul @ 8:10 a.m.
Stops Winona Jct., North La Crosse, La Crosse, Prairie du Chien, East Dubuque, Savanna, Oregon, Rochelle, Aurora
Ar. Chicago @ 2:40 p.m.

427 miles in 390 minutes

 

[Seaboard92]

Every time I have been to Madison I've always asked myself why isn't there a train here. Of course I think the best option is back at the Milwaukee Station on the west side of the capitol from an operations stand point. You have the best selection of rail lines to talk about from there. Historically the Milwaukee used to route one of the MSP-CHI trains via Madison if my memory serves me right. And I could see some merit to connecting it to the Twin Cities too. But I think we need to work on getting the Hiawatha here first. Of note the Chicago & Northwestern station is still in downtown too just east of the terrace.

 

[NES28]

I am thinking that a publicly-owned, passenger-only, high-speed route based on the mostly-abandoned C&NW alignment would be most effective.

 

[TransitTyrant]

Gov. Tony Evers not ruling out state funds for passenger rail expansion in Wisconsin

 

[Seaboard92]

I am thinking that a publicly-owned, passenger-only, high-speed route based on the mostly-abandoned C&NW alignment would be most effective.

I tend to disagree as that is the highest cost of all of the plans based on having to completely rebuild the right of way. And you really wouldn't have much to gain. The primary operator in the Madison is the WATCO owned Wisconsin & Southern and I think Amtrak and them could coexist well. In fact I think better than most shortline operators because WATCO is very customer focused and will look at Amtrak as a customer that needs to be pleased. It is a very customer focused railroad. Madison is a major node for them but they still don't run that many trains that could easily be avoided.

Then if you are trying to go to MSP with it I would still error on using the EX Milwaukee Road back up to Portage because you would hit Wisconsin Dells which is a major tourist destination in the midwest whereas the EX Northwestern branch line doesn't have any super big population draws, or tourism draws. And I do think freight and Amtrak can coexist well together. It just takes the right balance of things to make it happen.

 

[moselman66]

Something which continues to drive me nuts about the new push for Amtrak to Madison is that in most local media it's repeatedly referenced as "Milwaukee to Madison". While that accurately represents the added Amtrak mileage, it ignores or underplays that Chicago is part of the picture.

Back in 2010 and again today some of the popular opposition is based in Madison being an easy drive, especially from the conservative western suburbs. "Nobody will take the train if it's not faster than a car" is the (car-centric) complaint I've heard so may times. But those same people are supportive of Amtrak to Chicago because of Chicago traffic and what a liability a car can be in Chicago. Even with the red stranglehold on the state legislature money for Milwaukee-Chicago subsidy and improvements makes it through. If more emphasis was placed on this expansion also serving Madison-Chicago I think some limited-information doubters would become neutral or even be vaguely mild supporters.

This expansion will also serve at least one west-suburban Milwaukee station, Oconomowoc, and perhaps another (I've seen Pewaukee and/or Brookfield also mentioned). This gives people in the western/far western burbs a way to travel to Chicago on Amtrak without heading downtown or to the airport. In 1998 when Amtrak extended a handful of Hiawatha trains to Watertown for 90 day, thousands of people used it each month. That service was funded in conjunction with with a big highway construction project on main east-west freeway as a way to reduce commuter traffic, and it made stops similar to the old Milwaukee Road Cannonball commuter train: Watertown, Oconomowoc, Pewaukee, Brookfield, Elm Grove, Wauwatosa and Milwaukee. Some people did use it for daily commuting, but a sizable portion was people headed to Chicago. In the last month of service (June) a surge of traffic from the western burbs to Chicago was reported. .

I really think if Chicago access is emphasized more there will be broader support. The knee-jerk anti-choo-choo statements came out predictably. But if politicians start to feel that it's not a crowd-rousing joke in red communities anymore they may feel that quietly moderating their position won't have a political cost. This won't happen overnight but when it comes to Amtrak, what does....

 

[WICT106]

Something which continues to drive me nuts about the new push for Amtrak to Madison is that in most local media it's repeatedly referenced as "Milwaukee to Madison". While that accurately represents the added Amtrak mileage, it ignores or underplays that Chicago is part of the picture.

Back in 2010 and again today some of the popular opposition is based in Madison being an easy drive, especially from the conservative western suburbs. "Nobody will take the train if it's not faster than a car" is the (car-centric) complaint I've heard so may times. But those same people are supportive of Amtrak to Chicago because of Chicago traffic and what a liability a car can be in Chicago. Even with the red stranglehold on the state legislature money for Milwaukee-Chicago subsidy and improvements makes it through. If more emphasis was placed on this expansion also serving Madison-Chicago I think some limited-information doubters would become neutral or even be vaguely mild supporters.

This expansion will also serve at least one west-suburban Milwaukee station, Oconomowoc, and perhaps another (I've seen Pewaukee and/or Brookfield also mentioned). This gives people in the western/far western burbs a way to travel to Chicago on Amtrak without heading downtown or to the airport. In 1998 when Amtrak extended a handful of Hiawatha trains to Watertown for 90 day, thousands of people used it each month. That service was funded in conjunction with with a big highway construction project on main east-west freeway as a way to reduce commuter traffic, and it made stops similar to the old Milwaukee Road Cannonball commuter train: Watertown, Oconomowoc, Pewaukee, Brookfield, Elm Grove, Wauwatosa and Milwaukee. Some people did use it for daily commuting, but a sizable portion was people headed to Chicago. In the last month of service (June) a surge of traffic from the western burbs to Chicago was reported. .

I really think if Chicago access is emphasized more there will be broader support. The knee-jerk anti-choo-choo statements came out predictably. But if politicians start to feel that it's not a crowd-rousing joke in red communities anymore they may feel that quietly moderating their position won't have a political cost. This won't happen overnight but when it comes to Amtrak, what does....

Agreed on all of your points, here. There is far too much mention of "Milwaukee to Madison." This harms the overall effort to serve MSP to Chicago by *both* Madison and Milwaukee on the same route. Any public references must be corrected to reflect the four city, multi- State, nature of this train route, as there will continue to be a considerable amount of ignorant criticism leveled at this service extension. The focus and emphasis has to contain the theme of getting this service extension underway ASAP, and that means compromise from all quarters. It also means rejecting certain routes such as the ex- CNW branch line, as those routes would require considerable and significant upgrades -- which would delay the reintroduction of service through Madison.

 

[Kramerica]

Something which continues to drive me nuts about the new push for Amtrak to Madison is that in most local media it's repeatedly referenced as "Milwaukee to Madison". While that accurately represents the added Amtrak mileage, it ignores or underplays that Chicago is part of the picture.

Back in 2010 and again today some of the popular opposition is based in Madison being an easy drive, especially from the conservative western suburbs. "Nobody will take the train if it's not faster than a car" is the (car-centric) complaint I've heard so may times. But those same people are supportive of Amtrak to Chicago because of Chicago traffic and what a liability a car can be in Chicago. Even with the red stranglehold on the state legislature money for Milwaukee-Chicago subsidy and improvements makes it through. If more emphasis was placed on this expansion also serving Madison-Chicago I think some limited-information doubters would become neutral or even be vaguely mild supporters.

This expansion will also serve at least one west-suburban Milwaukee station, Oconomowoc, and perhaps another (I've seen Pewaukee and/or Brookfield also mentioned). This gives people in the western/far western burbs a way to travel to Chicago on Amtrak without heading downtown or to the airport. In 1998 when Amtrak extended a handful of Hiawatha trains to Watertown for 90 day, thousands of people used it each month. That service was funded in conjunction with with a big highway construction project on main east-west freeway as a way to reduce commuter traffic, and it made stops similar to the old Milwaukee Road Cannonball commuter train: Watertown, Oconomowoc, Pewaukee, Brookfield, Elm Grove, Wauwatosa and Milwaukee. Some people did use it for daily commuting, but a sizable portion was people headed to Chicago. In the last month of service (June) a surge of traffic from the western burbs to Chicago was reported. .

I really think if Chicago access is emphasized more there will be broader support. The knee-jerk anti-choo-choo statements came out predictably. But if politicians start to feel that it's not a crowd-rousing joke in red communities anymore they may feel that quietly moderating their position won't have a political cost. This won't happen overnight but when it comes to Amtrak, what does....

Exactly. On a different forum I wrote this:

"Obviously the GOP was the big problem for the train failure in 2010, but the Dems (and the media) didn't do as well as they could have either. You mention one major thing above. Why this was typically labelled as a MSN-MKE train is a huge question. It should have always been labeled and extension of the CHI-MKE train, to MSN, Watertown, Oconomowoc, and Brookfield. That would have garnered more public support.

The other major misstep was (former governor) Doyle's no-bid contract with Talgo. Why hand the opposition so much ammunition?"

This is not a new train. It is an extension of a very popular and (by non-NEC standards) very well used existing train.

 

[John Bredin]

The other major misstep was (former governor) Doyle's no-bid contract with Talgo. Why hand the opposition so much ammunition?"

The Talgo contract also involved having the assembly and ongoing maintenance facility in Milwaukee. Which sounds less like the sweetheart deal "no-bid contract" implies and more like a standard economic development deal, with good industrial jobs and all that.

And a better economic development deal than "the opposition" later made with FoxCon(n): the Talgo facility was actually sited in Wisconsin, would still be the maintenance facility had "the opposition" in the legislature* not killed it, and has been used by Talgo for rehab contracts for other railcars and thus provides some industrial jobs. Cite.

*To be fair, the Idiot Who Walks warned the legislature of the lawsuit costs if the Talgo contract was simply broken. The bigger idiots didn't listen.

Note: cite added.

 

[John Bredin]

Sorry for getting political but public passenger rail IS political. Amtrak & transit often face opponents willing to lie and mislead about the benefits of passenger rail to the point where even passenger rail supporters sometimes find themselves echoing their points.

Time and time again, spending that few would blink at if it was for highways or airports gets extra scrutiny at best and more typically flak/opposition because it's for Amtrak or transit, and some people see only the price of rail projects and not the value of them. "Nobody rides trains or wants to" is the ur-myth, the article of faith to some, from which all the other cr*p thrown at Amtrak and transit arises. "Billions for highways good, millions for transit wasteful," etc.

And because they see passenger rail as fundamentally a waste, some of them feel no compunction about lying, being disingenuous, or at least hypocritical, such as the "opposition" in Wisconsin painting Talgo as a bad deal but Foxconn as a good deal (before everyone saw starkly it wasn't).

 

[PaTrainFan]

Sorry for getting political but public passenger rail IS political. Amtrak & transit often face opponents willing to lie and mislead about the benefits of passenger rail to the point where even passenger rail supporters sometimes find themselves echoing their points.

Time and time again, spending that few would blink at if it was for highways or airports gets extra scrutiny at best and more typically flak/opposition because it's for Amtrak or transit, and some people see only the price of rail projects and not the value of them. "Nobody rides trains or wants to" is the ur-myth, the article of faith to some, from which all the other cr*p thrown at Amtrak and transit arises. "Billions for highways good, millions for transit wasteful," etc.

And because they see passenger rail as fundamentally a waste, some of them feel no compunction about lying, being disingenuous, or at least hypocritical, such as the "opposition" in Wisconsin painting Talgo as a bad deal but Foxconn as a good deal (before everyone saw starkly it wasn't).

Sorry to add on to the politicalization, but years and years ago Amtrak was added to the reliable list of talking points by certain folks on a certain part of the political spectrum and, when necessary, pulled out for use without regard to the full facts and updated arguments in favor.

 

[jis]

https://www.wmtv15news.com/2023/12/...locations-build-amtrak-train-station-madison/

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Funny that this thread got revised almost exactly a year later!

Fingers crossed a selection is made before December 2024...

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

It’s just amazing how many studies can be done, and done over without any movement forward.