Proposed Calgary to Banff passenger train

[Northwestern]

I hope the possibility of a Banff to Calgary passenger train will eventually become a reality:

https://is.gd/TYno1l
Any chance the VIA Canadian could split at Kamloops....one leg to Edmonton and the other to Calgary?

 

[jiml]

Any chance the VIA Canadian could split at Kamloops....one leg to Edmonton and the other to Calgary?

None.

 

[zephyr17]

I hope the possibility of a Banff to Calgary passenger train will eventually become a reality:

https://is.gd/TYno1l
Any chance the VIA Canadian could split at Kamloops....one leg to Edmonton and the other to Calgary?

Sure there is chance. There is a chance I will win a billion dollars in the lottery.

It's not a very good one, though.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Not much detail there. Does anyone here know more about this proposal?

 

[jiml]

Not much detail there. Does anyone here know more about this proposal?

The proposal seems to change every couple of years. The current one is a hydrogen-powered Flirt (or similar model) running on separate tracks in the CP ROW with a connection to the YYC airport. This has the backing of the provincial government but relies heavily on federal infrastructure money for construction. AFAIK the only CP involvement is use of their station in Banff and payment of royalties for use of their land. Whether they'd be involved in operation or day-to-day maintenance has not been spelled out anywhere I could find. Definitely not a VIA train though.

 

[jiml]

Here's some more detail. I think what the article posted above is saying is that there may not be a subsidy needed to operate the train, however there certainly seems to be a lot of government money needed for construction, and even extending the Calgary LRT to the airport would all come from taxpayers.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/calgary-banff-passenger-rail-link-high-priority-alberta-government
There's a provincial election upcoming in Alberta. It will be interesting to see where this lands once it's over. Right now Alberta and the feds don't play nice and both have other priorities.

 

[Northwestern]

Alberta says it's not quite ready to approve funding for the project. Half of the proposed cost of the project (1.5 billion) would be covered by the Canada Infrastructure bank. The development concern (and contributor) would be Liricon Capital. Liricon owns a ski resort north of Banff and has a long term lease for the Banff train station. The new train, by some, would see 11 million passengers per year.

The train stops would be:

Calgary Airport
Downtown Calgary
Calgary Keith
Cochrane
Morley
Canmore
Banff

Ten departures per day according to some sources.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

That's ambitious, well that's one word for it.

 

[jiml]

It is important to remember that plans like this come and go every couple of years. This one has garnered attention with an eco-friendly "flavor of the month" vibe and the suggestion of less government money to make it happen. Alberta is known for two things - low taxes and its oil industry, neither of which really factor into this proposal, and infrastructure investments of this scope are not really a thing there. In cities like Toronto or Chicago, for example, this would simply be another commuter rail line connecting to the well-established networks. In Calgary there is no network to speak of and this line is hardly the basis for one. It is a niche aimed mostly at tourists and attracting more of them. Whether it is viable year-round is a big question. A higher priority for Albertans is the oft-discussed line between Calgary and Edmonton, or even the procrastinated improvements to the highway between the two. They don't go to Banff.

 

[Northwestern]

I hope there will still be a possibility of a Calgary to Edmonton passenger train. I believe there has been a question of whether it would garner enough passengers to make the train a reasonable endeavor. I would be happy with a conventional train, not high speed. I once considered the VIA Canadian from Vancouver to Jasper, then a bus to Edmonton and then a bus down to Calgary. The Edmonton to Calgary bus, alone, would be a good 3.5 hours. Too long on a bus for me.

I also wonder how they predicted 11 million passengers per year. That's about 30,000 a day! Seems a little high.

I am very enthusiastic about a Calgary airport to Banff train. The only thing about the new train, which would be a problem for me, would be if the train caused a huge increase in tourists in and around the Banff area. I took the old "Canadian" train, back in the 1970's, from Vancouver to Banff. Back then, Banff was still a pretty small town or hamlet. I visited Banff a couple of years ago, and I couldn't believe the growth of the town. Banff has lost its small-town charm; just too many buildings and tourists.

 

[jiml]

The only thing about the new train, which would be a problem for me, would be if the train caused a huge increase in tourists in and around the Banff area. I took the old "Canadian" train, back in the 1970's, from Vancouver to Banff. Back then, Banff was still a pretty small town or hamlet. I visited Banff a couple of years ago, and I couldn't believe the growth of the town. Banff has lost its small-town charm; just too many buildings and tourists.

That's the problem I was alluding to. I have family and friends in the Calgary area. When they want to hike, ski or just take in the mountain beauty they don't go to Banff, and a train there isn't going to help with the overcrowding and high prices. It's a wonderful place geared to American and wealthy Asian tourists; the locals go elsewhere. That said, if they build it I will ride it.

 

[Anderson]

On the one hand, I was wondering where they were going to put 30,000 tourists at a time in Banff. On the other hand...

It feels like most of the ridership would end up being in those first three stops (and any others that land in Calgary proper).

[30,000 riders on 10 round-trips per day would also be...ambitious. If you paired 10 r/t per day out to Banff with high-frequency service in/around Calgary and made sure that the service connected with the CTrain (which has massive ridership), I think you might be able to get there. You'd need more than three stops, however...]

 

[Willbridge]

I hope there will still be a possibility of a Calgary to Edmonton passenger train. I believe there has been a question of whether it would garner enough passengers to make the train a reasonable endeavor. I would be happy with a conventional train, not high speed. I once considered the VIA Canadian from Vancouver to Jasper, then a bus to Edmonton and then a bus down to Calgary. The Edmonton to Calgary bus, alone, would be a good 3.5 hours. Too long on a bus for me.

I also wonder how they predicted 11 million passengers per year. That's about 30,000 a day! Seems a little high.

I am very enthusiastic about a Calgary airport to Banff train. The only thing about the new train, which would be a problem for me, would be if the train caused a huge increase in tourists in and around the Banff area. I took the old "Canadian" train, back in the 1970's, from Vancouver to Banff. Back then, Banff was still a pretty small town or hamlet. I visited Banff a couple of years ago, and I couldn't believe the growth of the town. Banff has lost its small-town charm; just too many buildings and tourists.

Turn up the volume and hear promises for Edmonton<>Calgary service.

 

[allanorn]

That's the problem I was alluding to. I have family and friends in the Calgary area. When they want to hike, ski or just take in the mountain beauty they don't go to Banff, and a train there isn't going to help with the overcrowding and high prices. It's a wonderful place geared to American and wealthy Asian tourists; the locals go elsewhere. That said, if they build it I will ride it.

Yeah - while Banff NP is big, Banff itself isn't. Neither is Canmore. While Banff proper and (to a lesser extent) Canmore can be traversed car-free, the rest of the area is certainly not walkable. A car is more or less essential to get to the hiking/outdoor spots.

You might be able to get the ski lifts to arrange transportation to/from hotels, and thus cut the need for a car for skiing. I do like the idea for ski trains, just less enthusiastic for summer trains.

How are the Calgary - Banff buses doing?

This feels like the most bang-for-the-buck could just be another tram line from the airport to downtown from the north, and then just extend the Red Line light rail to Keith. I thought that was already in the long-term tram plans?

 

[Siegmund]

It is a niche aimed mostly at tourists and attracting more of them. Whether it is viable year-round is a big question. A higher priority for Albertans is the oft-discussed line between Calgary and Edmonton, or even the procrastinated improvements to the highway between the two. They don't go to Banff.

I have to observe that the two Calgary-area families of my acquaintance go west to various places between Canmore and Lake Louise to hike and ski much more often than they go to Edmonton; one goes almost every weekend. Of course they need to access different trailheads every week - public transport will only work for them if there are shuttle buses throughout the national park on the other end.

In Calgary there is no network to speak of and this line is hardly the basis for one.

I think you could do a lot worse than Airport-Downtown-Cochrane-Canmore, if you wanted to start a commuter system. Cochrane has gotten big fast! Though it's close enough in that it'd be mildly surprising to see that run in this format. And somebody is sitting in all those thousands of condos in Canmore every week - I can imagine quite a number of city folk riding out there every Friday after work, maybe even leaving a car in Canmore rather than driving back and forth.

 

[jiml]

I think you could do a lot worse than Airport-Downtown-Cochrane-Canmore, if you wanted to start a commuter system. Cochrane has gotten big fast! Though it's close enough in that it'd be mildly surprising to see that run in this format. And somebody is sitting in all those thousands of condos in Canmore every week - I can imagine quite a number of city folk riding out there every Friday after work, maybe even leaving a car in Canmore rather than driving back and forth.

I hear you - you're not wrong, and it's possible someone in the planning process has actually thought of this. Most of the publicly available information suggests this is not the case however. While the plan has had its twists and turns, the primary motivation has always seemed to be getting more tourists to Banff without using cars, buses and the overcrowded highway. The scheduling and equipment choices don't favor commuters in Canmore, but they may be beneficiaries if it gets built. Post #7 is the first I've seen of this train running to the airport, as opposed to a provincially-funded extension of the existing LRT. If that's the case this could indeed be an important first step in Calgary commuter heavy rail. What they really need is a "spine" line north and south from Okotoks to Airdrie, with a stop at YYC. With that in place Banff would be a logical add-on.

 

[Siegmund]

Post #7 is the first I've seen of this train running to the airport, as opposed to a provincially-funded extension of the existing LRT.

I have heard the phrase "Calgary Airport to Banff" kicked around before --- leaving people to imagine rails magically appearing along Stoney Trail and bypassing both downtown traffic jams and slow riverbank S-curves, which I don't think will ever happen --- but not heard anyone actually commit themselves to details of what they want to build where.

I am assuming that the realistic versions of this proposal envision building a station near the 96th Street bridge on the existing tracks, and running a shuttle bus from the airport, sort of the way BWI and Newark work, rather than actually building a branchline directly to the airport.

If they do the LRT, you'd hope that went right to the terminal.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Doesn't the Calgary LRT have a really conservative growth strategy vis-a-vis funding and expansion? It's somewhat unique in that (maybe some similarities to San Diego?) that as I recall.

 

[Northwestern]

Surfing around the net, a while back, I can across this interesting article, proposed by Alberta Regional Rail:

https://is.gd/RyzQga
I don't know what the chances are for such a network to ever come about. The Calgary to Lethbridge to Medicine Hat linkage is interesting. I wonder if that was part of the old CPR passenger train route?

Lethbridge is an intresting city, which I visited 1970s when I lived about 2 hrs south of Lethbridge in Northwestern Montana. Another interesting visit was the former RCMP fort, Fort McCleod, which is an hour west of Lethbridge.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Surfing around the net, a while back, I can across this interesting article, proposed by Alberta Regional Rail:

https://is.gd/RyzQga
I don't know what the chances are for such a network to ever come about. The Calgary to Lethbridge to Medicine Hat linkage is interesting. I wonder if that was part of the old CPR passenger train route?

Lethbridge is an intresting city, which I visited 1970s when I lived about 2 hrs south of Lethbridge in Northwestern Montana. Another interesting visit was the former RCMP fort, Fort McCleod, which is an hour west of Lethbridge.

Lethbridge, Medicine Hat, and Calgary have all had massive growth since the '70s. I've gone through the first two regularly since the late '60s, Calgary once in a while. A connection to the Builder at Shelby would be interesting, but probably more trouble than it's worth. I've been to Fort Macleod a few times too. There's rail thru the Crow's Nest Pass, of course, but I'm not sure how passenger service would connect up to anything worthwhile there, although no doubt it existed once upon a time.

 

[Siegmund]

I don't know what the chances are for such a network to ever come about. The Calgary to Lethbridge to Medicine Hat linkage is interesting. I wonder if that was part of the old CPR passenger train route?

As far as I am aware, no: the two East-West routes diverged in Medicine Hat; you either went to Calgary, Banff, Revelstoke, etc, or you went to Lethbridge, Cranbrook, Nelson, etc. There was a Calgary-Lethbridge local that was downgraded to an RDC in the mid-50s and removed soon after. There was, at one time, a through sleeper from Calgary over the Crowsnest, but nothing toward Medicine Hat (and why whould there need to be, when there were several direct trains Medicine Hat to Calgary?)

It is interesting that this ARR sketch shows this new route to Medicine Hat - 2 or 3 hours slower than a direct service - when the other routes on their mapare all restoration of service that existed until the 50s or all the way to early VIA days (Lloydminster and Fort McMurray.) At 1950s speeds, direct Medicine Hat to Calgary was between 4½ and 5 hours; Medicine Hat to Lethbridge was a bit over 3; Lethbridge to Calgary was a bit over 4.