Proposed LA-NY Train in 2000

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Daniel

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Back in 2000, there was a plan to start a LA-NY luxury train, which was part of the network growth plan. What kind of equipment/schedule/routing would it have taken? Any one have any other info on it? Man, that would have been Amtrak's premier train had it ran; it would've been SWEET!
 
Hey Daniel; great topic (though it's been awhile since your post!)... How did you hear of this train; how detailed were Amtrak's plans? How did they intend to pay for it? What are your sources? Leads for more information, images, books?

While most of my volunteer work on behalf of Amtrak is just to keep it alive year-to-year***, I have wondered why Amtrak's premier service is the Acela train & the NorthEast Corridor (NEC)? The answer is, of course, that's where Congress lives, who actually feed Amtrak its (near-starvation) funding on a (screwed up non-permanent) year-by-year basis... Amtrak probably would've been killed off, if it weren't covered with flags and run through Washington D.C.'s back yard! But really now, shouldn't our National Passenger Railroad Corporation's ("Amtrak's real name") focus on serving the nation, not just D.C. & N.E.C.? So why does its network miss any state (it misses several, & huge pieces of others)?

Back to your topic, if Amtrak had a flagship, shouldn't it be a long-distance train, ideally a transcon? Like "The Heartland Flyer", the actual train name ought to be determined by national competition, citizen buy-in, & publicity... but for a working title let's call it "The Tri-Cities" linking America's 3 largest: New York, Chicago, & Los Angeles: 1) Fast: and Amtrak's continual focus of equipment improvements, 2) Reliable: best On-Time-Performer, paying premium hotshot rates so host common carrier freight railroads ensure zero time in sidings, severe penalties if they do. Amtrak pays equally severe penalties if Amtrak fails to meet the schedule. Absolutely no transfers or layovers (as the nearest facsimile to this route would now at Chicago) 3) Shortest, sensible routing: with federal improvements to help double-track, lower grades, straighten curves), 4) run as an Express/ Limited (stopping at very few stations outside of New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles, yet building the network up by connecting trains/ Amtrak ThruWay buses timed to meet it).

Equipment? Yes! Amtrak shouldn't blow the chance to snatch up the complete trainset of the (now-bankrupt) Grand Luxe a.k.a. American Orient Express (AOE) before it is dismantled. Especially since 1) not one U.S. firm is manufacturing new mainline passenger railcars (I'd love to be wrong on this; does anyone know better? ...any more to the rumors of bankrupt Colorado Railcar's assets regrouping in Iowa?), 2) 2/3 of Amtrak's backlogged car repairs are for the NEC, not long-distance cars that offer more-revenue-seats-per-repair-dollar, 3) any process to convert idled auto plants & their skilled workforce to build other things will take time (is anyone with the will or brains making this happen?), & 4) some AOE equipment is historic in its own right, a marketing opportunity Amtrak has not taken. The AOE set would be a bargain at any price, and Amtrak its most likely capable & long-term owner... and since poor economy/ lack of rail-cruise business led to AOE's demise, the asking price could be quite reasonable... come to think of it, luring its experienced staff back, along with their 1st-class customer skills, would be another bargain at any price...

Getting the first Tri-Cities running might take a couple years, but the AOE set needn't sit in mothballs; it could be busy right now filling gaping holes on The Sunset Limited: kept together to either: 1) run Los Angeles through Orlando (restoring Amtrak's only transcontinental route) on one of the 4 days the Sunset doesn't now, or 2) run as a connecting train between Atlantic Coast Service (Tr.#'s 91/92, & 97/98) at Orlando to New Orleans, timed to meet the L.A. to New Orleans Sunset (Tr.# 1/ 2) there.

*** OK, want to ride it, instead of daydream about what never was? Do you suppose your legislator, or Amtrak planners have any idea what we're discussing right now? No, silence doesn't work! Once, to encourage citizens to contact their transit agency to support a transit project, I wrote & distributed a pre-printed postcard for the public to sign. Southern California Transit Advocates (www.socata.org), a grassroots transit group incorporated as the "501c(4)" form of Non-Profit Organization (geared toward political speech, but no tax write-offs), let me staple that postcard into member-copies of their newsletter, which now happens more or less monthly. Does sending transit postcards work? Instead of being downgraded, shelved, or killed (very likely possibilities at the time), the first phase of L.A. County M.T.A.'s Exposition Corridor is now under construction, second phase under a Joint Powers Authority in planning... and in light rail mode because of citizen-lobbying, perhaps in small part because some of the 500+/- postcards were signed & mailed to M.T.A.'s board. Another card was sent about relieving congestion at LAX airport by removing barriers to getting light rail and bus transit right inside LAX airport; L.A. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa's airport rep. mentioned he'd received 28 postcards, followed by an hour-long conversation with him about those issues at Sierra Club's Angeles Chapter Transportation Committee. MetroLink has responded to postcard critiques of their cab car design & branding scheme with multiple page letters. Transit entities themselves occasionally publish postcards promoting their projects, distributing them to the public to mail (to influence decisionmakers).... There are no downloads for my cards at So.Ca.T.A.'s website (positions taken aren't necessarily endorsed by So.Ca.T.A.); and there are no cards for a Tri-Cities train (yet... I'd like to research more, and gauge public opinion. I'm not a webster but have webster friends who'll follow this thread...) Meantime, if you'd like sample cards to sign-stamp-send, or use to compose your own handwritten letter (the most compelling form of correspondence, according to legislative staffers); a card for restoring New Orleans-Orlando service on Amtrak's Sunset Limited is available, and a couple current campaigns for transit & rail if you live in Southern California) Mail a request with your name & street address to: Ulloth Graphics/ 10609 Columbus Avenue/ Mission Hills, California 91345 (NO: email, DEFINITELY NO: twits or twittering! YES: small donation ok- like a legible stamped self-addressed return envelope at least four and a quarter inches high x five and a half inches wide, YES: continue discussing this topic)
 
I heard about it in Trains Magazine article, they wanted a cross country, limited stop train luxury train. But this was another situation where Warrington's (RIP) imagination got the best of him. None of the services that he wanted ever came to frutition (from the Crescent Star to the total reroute of the Twilight Limited, a NY-CHI train running through Canada and Detroit, etc.).

cpamtfan-Peter
 
This was all part of Amtrak's ill-fated experiment with hauling freight cars and road railers. There were a number of new routes proposed until this plan but only the Three Rivers, Kentucky Cardinal and Lake Country Limited actually made it into the timetable. I don't there were others that ever ran. The Three Rivers was basically a mail/express/freight train with a few passengers cars. The Kentucky Cardinal was an addition to the Cardinal that ran from Indianapolis to Louisville (although for most of its run, it stopped on the Indiana side of the Ohio River) over a regional railroad. The Lake Country Limited ran over Metra (Chicago-Elgin) and the Wisconsin and Southern (Elgin-Janesville) on an inconvenient schedule for commuters and didn't stop near Lake Geneva, Wis., which would have been a fine weekend destination for Chicagoans. The Skyline (or Skyline Limited) would have run Chicago-New York and actually made it into timetables, but never ran because Amtrak couldn't reach an agreement with Norfolk Southern. Also proposed was a Texas connection to the Crescent. There might have been others.

The cross-country train was talked about, but I don't think there was ever anything definite about a routing or equipment. It probably would have hauled box cars and road railers.

David Gunn shut down the Amtrak Express freight program after it was learned that the operation never made any money, slowed down the trains because of switching at end points and along the way and seriously damaged relations with the big freight railroads (particularly Union Pacific) who believed Amtrak was using the freight line's own tracks to compete with their freight service. And if you think somebody is using your property to compete with you, you know what you do, you stick that competitor on a siding in the middle of nowhere for a couple of hours to screw up their delivery promises.

The Lake Country Limited was particularly embarrassing because hardly anybody rode it and the freight traffic never materialized. In fact it made the NBC Nightly News as an example of government waste.

A cross-country train using the AOE equipment, or some privately-owned cars, would be an interesting experiment. The fares would have to be sky high, however, because of the low capacity of the cars. These high-priced train excursions haven't fared too well, unfortunately. Several versions of the AOE have gone bankrupt and the plan to put AOE cars on Amtrak trains didn't go over very well. But, for those who could afford it, a cross country luxury train would be the ride of a lifetime.
 
Equipment? Yes! Amtrak shouldn't blow the chance to snatch up the complete trainset of the (now-bankrupt) Grand Luxe a.k.a. American Orient Express (AOE) before it is dismantled. Especially since 1) not one U.S. firm is manufacturing new mainline passenger railcars (I'd love to be wrong on this; does anyone know better? ...any more to the rumors of bankrupt Colorado Railcar's assets regrouping in Iowa?), 2) 2/3 of Amtrak's backlogged car repairs are for the NEC, not long-distance cars that offer more-revenue-seats-per-repair-dollar, 3) any process to convert idled auto plants & their skilled workforce to build other things will take time (is anyone with the will or brains making this happen?), & 4) some AOE equipment is historic in its own right, a marketing opportunity Amtrak has not taken. The AOE set would be a bargain at any price, and Amtrak its most likely capable & long-term owner... and since poor economy/ lack of rail-cruise business led to AOE's demise, the asking price could be quite reasonable... come to think of it, luring its experienced staff back, along with their 1st-class customer skills, would be another bargain at any price...
Bad news, Phillip Anschultz (probably mis-spelled his last name), former owner of the SP / D&RG, bought the cars that were in Napa, and had them shipped back to Denver. Guess after selling off the Ski Train to Canada, he wanted another train to tinker with. No word in the press what the plan is with the equipment. There was a posting on TrainWeb a while back where one of their correspondents toured the train in Napa. There are still a few cars at Raeder Railcar (I think sleepers and one gutted ACF dome) that are on the market, but they seem to be needing repairs, trucks, etc.
 
Back in 2000, there was a plan to start a LA-NY luxury train, which was part of the network growth plan. What kind of equipment/schedule/routing would it have taken? Any one have any other info on it? Man, that would have been Amtrak's premier train had it ran; it would've been SWEET!
Even in the gods("good ole days")there was no cross country express/NYC-LAX/SFO crack train!The famous

Broadway Ltd. and 20th Century Ltd. competed to CHI with movie stars/Sports Heroes/Politicians etc.Then the

change to various and sundry Zephyers?Chiefs and lesser trains to get to the coast!(those were the days my friend!) :cool:

The OTP of the late SL from LAX-JAK led to the demise of this train(with the huge assistance of Katrina of course!)

It would be great to have a series of Express?Ltd. On Time trains scheduled so as to get us where we wanna go

when we wanna be there but in reality :angry: the freight railroads and the so called planners @ AMTRAK

will never allow this to happen!(a day late and a dollar short has been their mo up to now,hopefully the $$$

available and an admin in DC that likes and cares about trains will help change this!)

I personally just wish they coulkd get the trains that already exist equipped/staffed and running on time,

if anyone disagrees please feel free to keep on dreaming of what should be, to paraphrase Sen Kennedy:

Some people see things and ask why?I see things and ask Why not?(My examples FWIW:Connect the

Heartland Flyer to KC/run a train through Vegas/hook up NOL and Florida(my choice is CONOL through)/

Improve the Cardinal and get more/better equipment for the glamour(ie Tourist Trains)trains:EB/CZ/SWC/CS/LSL!

;)
 
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Amen, Jim! I think operating well maintained, on time trains would take priority over running "super" long distance cruise trains. The inconvenience of having to switch cars at some central station really isn't the end of the world for most travelers, I think the majority of Amtrak riders just want a clean comfortable ride. As for upgrading equipment on the western LD trains, that really needs to happen. Not to mention strategically adding capacity (particularly sleepers!) and filling in holes like connecting the Heartland Flyer as you mention. There could be some real demand in both Wichita and Lawrence for this service.
 
Improve the Cardinal and get more/better equipment for the glamour(ie Tourist Trains)trains:EB/CZ/SWC/CS/LSL!;)

How could the Cardinal be improved? Is the ridership there to suggest it needs another sleeper, or the diner and baggage car that a second sleeper would warrant?

Also, if the Broadway is ever started again (which, as we all know, it very well may not be) wouldn't Amtrak want to market that as its NYP-CHI "glamour train," as opposed to the LSL?
 
As for upgrading equipment on the western LD trains, that really needs to happen. Not to mention strategically adding capacity (particularly sleepers!)
What besides the Empire Builder needs another sleeper? I know the Silver Service is operating close to capacity, but those trains are not in the west. What else is there?
 
Improve the Cardinal and get more/better equipment for the glamour(ie Tourist Trains)trains:EB/CZ/SWC/CS/LSL!;)

How could the Cardinal be improved? Is the ridership there to suggest it needs another sleeper, or the diner and baggage car that a second sleeper would warrant?

Also, if the Broadway is ever started again (which, as we all know, it very well may not be) wouldn't Amtrak want to market that as its NYP-CHI "glamour train," as opposed to the LSL?
Ihavent ridden the Cardinal yet but based on what other shave said and noticing how the sleepers seem to

always be sold out and considering that they dont have a real diner which,@ the priices they charge doesnt seem to

make sense,I believe this train, with better hours into/from IND/Cinncinatti and WAS/CHI would become a very

popular alternative to the Superliner CL!As to a Broadway Ltd.,they could upgrade the LSL and it would be

a win/win for pax on this route!In the West the CZ in the Summer and the SWC could probably use another

sleeper and ssls are always needed!Hope this makes sense,Im 65 going on 100 after 16 states/9 trains

in the past two weeks!(Im ready to leave tomorrow as the traveler would say! :lol: Forgot the poor SL also,

it sure could use some new/refurbished equipment too,not to mention getting from NOL to Florida somehow?
 
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As for upgrading equipment on the western LD trains, that really needs to happen. Not to mention strategically adding capacity (particularly sleepers!)
What besides the Empire Builder needs another sleeper? I know the Silver Service is operating close to capacity, but those trains are not in the west. What else is there?
Having just ridden the Cardinal and being involved for a couple of weeks trying to get sleeper accommodations on the tri-weekly run I'd certainly nominate the Cardinal for an upgrade, i.e., another sleeper and a real diner. With a little tweaking of the schedule, for scenic purposes, that train could be competitive with any of the others serving Chicago from the East. It's really a very beautiful route.
 
As for upgrading equipment on the western LD trains, that really needs to happen. Not to mention strategically adding capacity (particularly sleepers!)
What besides the Empire Builder needs another sleeper? I know the Silver Service is operating close to capacity, but those trains are not in the west. What else is there?
The CZ can run to capacity on many runs.

This isn't about putting a new car on every train, but it would be nice to have a few extra sleepers laying around in CHI-- that way as Amtrak moves into a RMS they can add a sleeper to a train that they predict will sell out sleepers.
 
I have tried to get a roomette on the Cardinal three times this year and in each case, they were sold out.

I did get a roomette for a trip to Dallas in September - maybe just lucky!!

I prefer the Cardinal to the CL and LSL but the Cardinal is usually sold out.

I'd like to see an additional sleeper car added.
 
This is INSANE! WE need more short haul trains! Amtrak needs to work for business travel! No more vacation trains!!!
In a perfect world this would be great,but the freight lines and the congestion in large metro areas

realistically point to commuter type light rail,Metro type transportation and,yes, busses!AMTRAK runs the

NEC on tracks they mostly own and do a good job,especially with ACELA but this is not practical

in most areas for many reasons, the OTP of most trains is what discourages business travelers,not

an emphasis on "Vacation" and "Tourist trains"!Try it, youll Love it! :) :) :)
 
This is INSANE! WE need more short haul trains! Amtrak needs to work for business travel! No more vacation trains!!!

Well when the new 130 Midwest Bi-Levels arrive, then services will definately expand :blink: . Just calm down, Amtrak has other business other than short hauls, they're built and live on long hauls.

cpamtfan-Peter
 
This is INSANE! WE need more short haul trains! Amtrak needs to work for business travel! No more vacation trains!!!
One of the nice things about forums such as AU is that most posters use standard English.

If you disagree with those who like long distance trains, just say so. Using the word "INSANE" to describe something you don't like just sounds childish.
 
As for upgrading equipment on the western LD trains, that really needs to happen. Not to mention strategically adding capacity (particularly sleepers!)
What besides the Empire Builder needs another sleeper? I know the Silver Service is operating close to capacity, but those trains are not in the west. What else is there?
Ever try booking sleeper space on a western train at the last moment? Good luck, about half the time the sleepers are full. And don't get me started on peak seasons like Summer, Holidays, and such.

Moreover, I would submit that with additional sleeper capacity, Amtrak could sell more sleeper space at a lower rate and still generate a positive contribution margin for the added capacity. The current Amtrak model of scarce resources results in a situation where they only have a limited supply of rooms to sell, and the push is to maximize revenue which in the long haul probably reduces overall ridership.

Not to mention that many of the existing cars are "tired" inside and could benefit from more frequent rehabs. Hard to do that when you need everything you own to cover regular demand.
 
Folks - step back and take a breath. We're on the verge of name calling here and that's one thing the AU forum won't allow. I've removed some posts that were getting to that category. This thread is for the discussion of a proposed train from LA to NY in 2000.
 
Back in 2000, there was a plan to start a LA-NY luxury train, which was part of the network growth plan. What kind of equipment/schedule/routing would it have taken? Any one have any other info on it? Man, that would have been Amtrak's premier train had it ran; it would've been SWEET!
Something like this?

 
How could the Cardinal be improved? Is the ridership there to suggest it needs another sleeper, or the diner and baggage car that a second sleeper would warrant?
I'd say that the ridership is there. Last year, running only 3 days per week in each direction the Cardinal carried half as many passengers as the Capitol Limited running 7 days a week. The numbers for the Cardinal were 109,195 and the Capitol carried 216,350.

So yeah, I think that if Amtrak had the equipment to run an extra sleeper or even better run 7 days per week, that the ridership would be there.
 
This is INSANE! WE need more short haul trains! Amtrak needs to work for business travel! No more vacation trains!!!
Just for the record Tim, last year Amtrak collected more ticket revenue from those so called "vacation trains", than they collected from short haul trains, $414.6 Million from long haul and $368.8 from the short haul trains.

And vacation trains is a term that I disagree with, since many people ride those trains for real transportation and not vacation. Yes there are some on those trains for vacation, and many of them visit these forums, but there are many people for whom these trains represent real transit and a means to get to places that they need to go.
 
Just for the record Tim, last year Amtrak collected more ticket revenue from those so called "vacation trains", than they collected from short haul trains, $414.6 Million from long haul and $368.8 from the short haul trains.
Assuming the NEC is included as "short haul", the FY 2008 ticket revenue for short haul trains was $1.319 billion.
 
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