Pullman Rail Journeys cheaper than Amtrak

[dart330]

Would love to take the Pullman, but it is just too expensive for the dates I'm looking at in June 2015. $780 vs $531 on Amtrak. I know the Pullman price includes alcohol, but I can't drink $249 worth of liquor on such a short trip.

On the dining page it says "Guests may not consume liquor aboard purchased prior to boarding Pullman." Where does it say the liquor is included in the price? Sounds more like no private stock in public spaces.

Right at the very top where it says "We've carefully crafted a delicious menu to help you savor every moment of the journey, with freshly prepared meals and classic cocktails included compliments of Pullman Rail Journeys." (Bold theirs)

Thanks I see that now. Seems odd that I couldn't bring my own bottle of wine for dinner if all the liquor is already paid for.

 

[jimhidson]

It has to do with the ridiculous liquor laws that still exist after the failed Prohibition in the 20s and 30s!,This idiotic experiment made the Mafia ( and so called respectable people like Joe Kennedy) rich and powerful and we still have 50 sets of puzzling alcohol laws, most of which make no sense!

 

[Anderson]

All of the state-funded routes are profitable (or at least break-even) from Amtrak's perspective.

No, Amtrak still runs a small loss on all but the VA routes.

I think that is mainly because they just could not convince anyone that what they were claiming the cost is based on the mystery cost allocation algorithm that they seem to be unable to explain even to themselves sometimes, was actually believable. So they were stuck negotiating a mutually acceptable price. In short they basically swallowed the bitter pill of reallocating those extra allocations somewhere else, but just in case, they still call them allocations to the operations that will never pay for them. I don't quite understand the logic of that, but c'est la vie.
I have heard usually reliable hearsay that Pennsylvania steadfastly refused to accept Amtrak's demands on the Pennsylvanian until Amtrak caved. Same is true of the course that the negotiations with New York took. It apparently came to a point where New York was quite ready to walk away and have Amtrak shut down operations and then try to explain to Congress why they did so. Amtrak at that point decided that desecration was the better part of valor and backed down. This one was particularly ironical since 10 or 12 years back it is Boardman sitting on the New York side of the table, that was decking it out with Gunn regarding the Turboliners.

So whether it is a loss or not is still open to question. Who knows? Just because you throw a dart at a board and allocate a cost does not necessarily make it a real cost. It does however make it easier to remove that cost from something else. This is a favorite game that is played by large corporations when they write down losses. If they decide to do so for whatever reason they will load up everything including the kitchen sink that they can pass under the scrutiny of the SEC. Since stuff written down cleans out the books and allows things to look much much better, until the next time.

Yes, the New York bit is irony.

As to the individual routes and the state cost situation, the answer is complicated because the overhead situation is a mess. In terms of direct, avoidable costs on those routes Amtrak should be well in the black. Once you "fully allocate" the costs, however, the picture is muddy. For example, how much of Joe Boardman's salary should be allocated to the Empire Service vs. the Silver Meteor? And so on. After state contributions, however, there are several routes (those added under more recent contracts/more recently renegotiated contracts) that do pretty well. For the record, per the September 2013 report, in FY13 the Adirondack was also "profitable" for Amtrak post-state contribution. Per that same report, in FY12 the Adirondack lost money while the Carolinian and Ethan Allen showed profits.

Basically what we're looking at is a fight over gross profits, net profits, and cost allocations...and it is one that is borderline indiscernible.

 

[neroden]

As to the individual routes and the state cost situation, the answer is complicated because the overhead situation is a mess. In terms of direct, avoidable costs on those routes Amtrak should be well in the black.

Only after accounting for state payments, I assume.
We've never really seen direct cost numbers for most of the state routes. I figure many of them cover their direct, avoidable costs from the farebox (ticket & food sales), but I'm pretty sure some of them don't.

Most dramatically the Heartland Flyer and the Hoosier State. But there are several others where the fares are kept low and ridership isn't very good. And in years with bad operational problems (such as when the Wolverines were routinely running several hours late) the list of routes needing direct operating subsidy would presumably have been larger.

Once you "fully allocate" the costs, however, the picture is muddy. For example, how much of Joe Boardman's salary should be allocated to the Empire Service vs. the Silver Meteor? And so on. After state contributions, however, there are several routes (those added under more recent contracts/more recently renegotiated contracts) that do pretty well. For the record, per the September 2013 report, in FY13 the Adirondack was also "profitable" for Amtrak post-state contribution. Per that same report, in FY12 the Adirondack lost money while the Carolinian and Ethan Allen showed profits.

Basically what we're looking at is a fight over gross profits, net profits, and cost allocations...and it is one that is borderline indiscernible.

Railroads thrive on economies of scale, so almost everything is shared overhead. Funny business that way.

 

[Anderson]

Eh, in Amtrak's case you can directly allocate a lot of costs to specific routes. Most of what can't be allocated is either (A) capital costs, such as equipment; or (B) administrative costs, such as those related to 50 Mass. Because of the labor-intensive nature of Amtrak compared to non-passenger rail operations, there's a lot more that can be allocated than is the case with a lot of freight operations.

 

[Paulus]

For what it's worth, the FRA will be publishing short and long term avoidable cost recovery figures hopefully sometime soon. For FY09, going off ticket revenue (since we don't have F&B revenue breakdowns) the following routes met or exceeded their FRA Defined Costs (in order from highest to lowest:

Acela

Northeast Regional

Washington-Newport News

Carolinian

Hiawathas

Empire Service

Auto Train

Keystone Service

Maple Leaf

Pennsylvanian

New Haven-Springfield

In terms of all defined costs, only the Acela, NERegional, and Washington-Newport News did so.

 

[neroden]

For what it's worth, the FRA will be publishing short and long term avoidable cost recovery figures hopefully sometime soon.

That's sort of exciting. Not that I completely trust any Amtrak accounting, but I really do feel that overhead allocation is largely meaningless from a business perspective and just confuses people.

For FY09, going off ticket revenue (since we don't have F&B revenue breakdowns) the following routes met or exceeded their FRA Defined Costs (in order from highest to lowest:

Acela

Northeast Regional

Washington-Newport News

Carolinian

Hiawathas

Empire Service

Auto Train

Keystone Service

Maple Leaf

Pennsylvanian

New Haven-Springfield

In terms of all defined costs, only the Acela, NERegional, and Washington-Newport News did so.

The numbers will probably have changed quite a lot since 2009. I would still expect roughly the same routes to be top of the list, but (a) nearly everything should be doing better financially, and (b) there should be some movement in the ordering of the list.

 

[neroden]

Eh, in Amtrak's case you can directly allocate a lot of costs to specific routes. Most of what can't be allocated is either (A) capital costs, such as equipment; or (B) administrative costs, such as those related to 50 Mass. Because of the labor-intensive nature of Amtrak compared to non-passenger rail operations, there's a lot more that can be allocated than is the case with a lot of freight operations.

But the allocations are meaningless. Allocation to routes of maintenance and refurbishment of equipment at Bear or Beech Grove: largely arbitrary and meaningless. Allocation of station costs by route (for stations served by multiple routes): largely meaningless. Allocation of pensions is famously meaningless. Allocation of the costs of "information technology" (a large and growing part of the budget): meaningless. Allocation to routes of the central reservations call center costs, or the cost of the paper ticket back office which reconciles the numbers: meaningless. And these are big costs.

Even the "direct costs" of T&E and OBS labor, which can be clearly assigned to trains, have economies of scale, due to the need to pay workers to wait between trains.

It's easier to clearly allocate to a route like the Empire Builder, which stands alone. But allocating costs to something like the Carolinian, which shares all its tracks and stations and equipment with other trains, is fraught with arbitrariness.

 

[Paulus]

For what it's worth, the FRA will be publishing short and long term avoidable cost recovery figures hopefully sometime soon.

That's sort of exciting. Not that I completely trust any Amtrak accounting, but I really do feel that overhead allocation is largely meaningless from a business perspective and just confuses people.

In this case, they should be pretty well defined:

The avoidability of costs for Amtrak services is estimated over two different time horizons:

(1) short run - costs that no longer will be incurred one year after a route is eliminated,

(2) long run - costs that no longer will be incurred five years after a route is eliminated.

In the short run, some costs, mainly the direct costs of operating trains, such as fuel expenses, wages and other direct labor, and certain materials, can be eliminated relatively quickly when a route is terminated. Other cost savings in the first year occur as a result of operational adjustments and lags in the accounting system. In the long-term, other costs can be avoided as Amtrak’s scale of operations is reduced in certain areas, such as at stations and equipment maintenance ResCens. Also, costs can be avoided as facilities dedicated to a specific route are “retired” and sold, thereby avoiding any operating and capital charges associated with their ownership. Rolling stock employed on a specific route is treated as partly avoidable in the long term. This is true because in the long run a reduced need for cars and locomotives due to cessation of a particular Amtrak service is expected to translate into a reduced need for capital outlays to renew and rehabilitate its fleet.

The actual estimates of Amtrak’s avoidable costs necessarily are reduced by the expected labor protection payments provided for in its collective bargaining agreements covering certain categories of workers. Under current agreements, these payments are phased out over five years, therefore, such labor protection payments are 100 percent avoidable in the long run.

I plan on grabbing some popcorn (or potentially some crow, but likely just popcorn) once those numbers get published. Probably some antacids as well.

The numbers will probably have changed quite a lot since 2009. I would still expect roughly the same routes to be top of the list, but (a) nearly everything should be doing better financially, and (b) there should be some movement in the ordering of the list.

Right, that's just the last year with that particular breakdown.

 

[neroden]

I'm definitely looking forward to it. The "five year" numbers are debatable -- sounds like they're assuming that any cancelled trains won't be replaced with other routes, which is a bad assumption given the continuous expansion of state corridor route funding -- but the "one year" numbers sound like they'll be fairly meaningful.

Of course, there's still the problem of correct allocation of ticket *revenue*; cancelling a train causes connecting revenue to evaporate.

But anyway, I'm going to bet right now that the worst of the "corridor" trains will have "revenue minus one-year-avoidable costs" results substantially worse than the best of the "long-distance" trains. The Heartland Flyer is slow, expensive to run, poorly patronized, and has low ticket prices, while the LSL commands high prices. The east/west divide should show up clearly. (This still won't answer my question of how a standalone Denver Zephyr would look compared to the CZ, but it would answer some other questions.)

 

[Paulus]

I'm definitely looking forward to it. The "five year" numbers are debatable -- sounds like they're assuming that any cancelled trains won't be replaced with other routes, which is a bad assumption given the continuous expansion of state corridor route funding -- but the "one year" numbers sound like they'll be fairly meaningful.

At which point it is a cost of the other route, otherwise you'd be double counting.

Of course, there's still the problem of correct allocation of ticket *revenue*; cancelling a train causes connecting revenue to evaporate.

True, but we can figure that out already. Surfliner would probably be the most impacted, I've references to a document no longer online which stated 19% of Surfliner revenue was derived from connecting to long distance trains; most of that is probably from the Coast Starlight: just under half of all LAUS long distance passengers are associated with the Starlight and more than half of its ridership gets on and/or off in California. For that matter, five of the top 9 ridership pairs are Los Angeles to elsewhere in California. On the other hand, that number looks unfeasibly high (would imply that every single long distance passenger from LAUS connected to and from San Diego). I wonder if Amtrak screwed up in that presentation and included all transfers, including bus. It would make rather more sense.

But anyway, I'm going to bet right now that the worst of the "corridor" trains will have "revenue minus one-year-avoidable costs" results substantially worse than the best of the "long-distance" trains. The Heartland Flyer is slow, expensive to run, poorly patronized, and has low ticket prices, while the LSL commands high prices. The east/west divide should show up clearly. (This still won't answer my question of how a standalone Denver Zephyr would look compared to the CZ, but it would answer some other questions.)

Well yeah, given that the worst of the corridor trains includes the Hoosier State Heartland Flyer really ought to be DMU, I don't get why Amtrak hasn't shown more interest in DMUs for routes like it and the Shuttles.

 

[neroden]

Heartland Flyer really ought to be DMU, I don't get why Amtrak hasn't shown more interest in DMUs for routes like it and the Shuttles.

Because FRA regulations and Buy American regulations make it damn near impossible to order DMUs. :-(
Really, I think that's the only reason. I have railed (ha ha) against those regulations before.

...oh, wait, I forgot. BNSF also refuses to allow DMUs to run on its lines in consists of less than three -- we found this out during the negotiations over the Denver-Boulder-Longmont Fastracks route. Apparently the signal system is... weak.

 

[scoostraw]

Where does the food for these cars come from? Where eaten?

Pullman menus are available on their website.

I notice that TOAST is on the Pullman breakfast menu. Didn't Amtrak decide years ago that preparing toast on-board was not feasible? Perhaps Pullman could share this railroad secret so that toast could be made available in Amtrak dining cars.

 

[ciship]

Even the southbound rates aren't too bad.

How do they board the Pullman cars? Since it isn't Amtrak, I assume I couldn't use the Metropolitan Lounge? Is there a separate semi-kindergarten walk?

In New Orleans the Pullman staff met with us about an hour before departure, took my bag to my room, told us they would come board us as soon as Amtrak was coupled up and ready. About 45 minutes prior to departure we could board. I suppose some would say "mini kindergarten walk" but I would call it "VIP escort" lol. Same thing... Just feels fancier ha.

If you weren't waiting in the Metropolitan Lounge, how did the Pullman people "find" you an hour before departure? Where do the Pullman passengers wait for boarding?

 

[TVRM610]

Even the southbound rates aren't too bad.

How do they board the Pullman cars? Since it isn't Amtrak, I assume I couldn't use the Metropolitan Lounge? Is there a separate semi-kindergarten walk?

In New Orleans the Pullman staff met with us about an hour before departure, took my bag to my room, told us they would come board us as soon as Amtrak was coupled up and ready. About 45 minutes prior to departure we could board. I suppose some would say "mini kindergarten walk" but I would call it "VIP escort" lol. Same thing... Just feels fancier ha.

If you weren't waiting in the Metropolitan Lounge, how did the Pullman people "find" you an hour before departure? Where do the Pullman passengers wait for boarding?

Well this was in New Orleans... I'm not sure how it works in Chicago. In New Orleans there is just the Magnolia Room which I've never waited in anyways. In New Orleans the Pullman Staff walked in and we (all the various passengers traveling Pullman) just walked up and checked in with the Pullman Conductor.. he had his list and we all sort of started mingling and greeting each other right away.

Honestly while it worked, I sort of think a little check-in stand with clear signage would be nice in New Orleans. Something simple like a Podium. As it was I sorta just waited and figured no need to worry until the Amtrak train started to board passengers.. but certainly clear signage would be nice.

 

[TVRM610]

Where does the food for these cars come from? Where eaten?

Pullman menus are available on their website.

I notice that TOAST is on the Pullman breakfast menu. Didn't Amtrak decide years ago that preparing toast on-board was not feasible? Perhaps Pullman could share this railroad secret so that toast could be made available in Amtrak dining cars.

Haha... VIA Rail could also share that little secret!!!

Not only does Pullman offer Toast in the morning... but they even TOAST the bread for sandwiches at lunch time! It seems they can't get enough of toasting all the bread they can! haha.

 

[CoachSlumber]

Even the southbound rates aren't too bad.

How do they board the Pullman cars? Since it isn't Amtrak, I assume I couldn't use the Metropolitan Lounge? Is there a separate semi-kindergarten walk?

In New Orleans the Pullman staff met with us about an hour before departure, took my bag to my room, told us they would come board us as soon as Amtrak was coupled up and ready. About 45 minutes prior to departure we could board. I suppose some would say "mini kindergarten walk" but I would call it "VIP escort" lol. Same thing... Just feels fancier ha.

If you weren't waiting in the Metropolitan Lounge, how did the Pullman people "find" you an hour before departure? Where do the Pullman passengers wait for boarding?

Metro Lounge. They called me on my cell when I was late.

 

[FriskyFL]

Where does the food for these cars come from? Where eaten?

Pullman menus are available on their website.

I notice that TOAST is on the Pullman breakfast menu. Didn't Amtrak decide years ago that preparing toast on-board was not feasible? Perhaps Pullman could share this railroad secret so that toast could be made available in Amtrak dining cars.

Haha... VIA Rail could also share that little secret!!!
Not only does Pullman offer Toast in the morning... but they even TOAST the bread for sandwiches at lunch time! It seems they can't get enough of toasting all the bread they can! haha.

I'll gladly share the recipe for toast with Amtrak, along with the recipe for ice (hint: the secret ingredient is WATER).

 

[CoachSlumber]

Would love to take the Pullman, but it is just too expensive for the dates I'm looking at in June 2015. $780 vs $531 on Amtrak. I know the Pullman price includes alcohol, but I can't drink $249 worth of liquor on such a short trip.

On the dining page it says "Guests may not consume liquor aboard purchased prior to boarding Pullman." Where does it say the liquor is included in the price? Sounds more like no private stock in public spaces.

Believe me, everything is included. If I brought anything on, I'd be discreet, but it's really not necessary.

 

[railbuck]

I notice that TOAST is on the Pullman breakfast menu. Didn't Amtrak decide years ago that preparing toast on-board was not feasible? Perhaps Pullman could share this railroad secret so that toast could be made available in Amtrak dining cars.

Amtrak does seem to know how to make pain grillé français.