Questions about domestic in-transit luggage inspection.

[Devil's Advocate]

If you choose to assert your right to refuse an invasive search sans probable cause and are removed from the train as punishment (Sir, we're looking for "drugs" but will not have a questionable canine alert process available until after the train departs) will Amtrak put you on the next train in the same class at no additional charge when released? Or will they punish you a second time by forcing you to purchase another ticket? Who at Amtrak would have this information? How would records of prior incidents be stored and cataloged at Amtrak for purposes of FOIA? I've never actually been searched on Amtrak myself, but I have seen others bullied into acquiescence. When my time comes I would like to know what to expect.

 

[rspenmoll]

According to this 2016 document, Amtrak's responsibility in the event a passenger is refused carriage for declining to consent to a law enforcement search is to refund the passenger. http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Security_Fact_Sheet_5-5-16.pdf

 

[crescent-zephyr]

For what it’s worth my luggage has been searched in every mode of public transit I’ve taken other than water based transit. On Amtrak in Chicago in my roomette (the dog like DA mentioned above). TSA random checks both with checked luggage and carry on. And on a bus line, Jefferson lines, my bag was alerted by a canine which gave them cause to search and then question me. Since they found nothing the questioning was pretty short since my luggage was in a bus bay with lots of other luggage. Ha.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

According to this 2016 document, Amtrak's responsibility in the event a passenger is refused carriage for declining to consent to a law enforcement search is to refund the passenger. http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Security_Fact_Sheet_5-5-16.pdf

RANDOM PASSENGER AND BAGGAGE SCREENINGWith due respect to passengers' privacy, the random and unannounced screening and inspection of passengers and their personal items is completed as quickly as possible - usually in less than a minute. Passengers failing to consent to security procedures will be denied access to trains and refused carriage, and a refund will be offered

So far as I can tell the statement in question seems to be focused on inspection prior to boarding rather than in-transit refusal. If you're forcibly removed somewhere substantially distant from where you live or work a refund alone could potentially leave you stranded.

 

[rspenmoll]

So far as I can tell the statement in question seems to be focused on inspection prior to boarding rather than in-transit refusal. If you're forcibly removed somewhere substantially distant from where you live or work a refund alone could potentially leave you stranded.

I would say that's the case, just as it would be if you declined to consent to a random gate side frisk being conducted at an airport where you were making a connecting flight, as happens on rare occasions.

 

[RSG]

For what it’s worth my luggage has been searched in every mode of public transit I’ve taken other than water based transit. On Amtrak in Chicago in my roomette (the dog like DA mentioned above). TSA random checks both with checked luggage and carry on. And on a bus line, Jefferson lines, my bag was alerted by a canine which gave them cause to search and then question me. Since they found nothing the questioning was pretty short since my luggage was in a bus bay with lots of other luggage. Ha.

I would have less of an issue with a Federally-controlled agency doing a search on Amtrak than local agencies such as the Reno 911 circus. There's just something wrong about that, particularly when the inspections occur on the train as opposed to the platform or in the station.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Yeah TSA seems the least invasive. For one, the tsa doesn’t question you, they just inspect your bag and your good to go.

Both the Amtrak police, and the police who questioned me on Jefferson lines were questioning why I was traveling, etc.

Amtrak police have been the worst in my experiences.

 

[adamj023]

If you choose to assert your right to refuse an invasive search sans probable cause and are removed from the train as punishment (Sir, we're looking for "drugs" but will not have a questionable canine alert process available until after the train departs) will Amtrak put you on the next train in the same class at no additional charge when released? Or will they punish you a second time by forcing you to purchase another ticket? Who at Amtrak would have this information? How would records of prior incidents be stored and cataloged at Amtrak for purposes of FOIA? I've never actually been searched on Amtrak myself, but I have seen others bullied into acquiescence. When my time comes I would like to know what to expect.

I have never had issues with this on Amtrak. Never had bags inspected before on Amtrak. A canine did walk through the train before sniffing for drugs and the like and process was quick but it just walked in the hallway of the train. I haven’t flown in an awful long time but at the time I just had to walk through a metal detector and drop keys and carryon and stuff. Since then there have been lots of changes and I don’t even know if the trusted traveler programs even help much. Based on the TSA changes, I find Amtrak overall to be a better way of doing security. Communities need to be secured to prevent and capture terrorists and drugs and the like and Amtrak has seemed like a very secure way to travel based on existing track record.

i would have no problems with a consent to search but I would not willingly give access to my electronic device information which remains in encrypted form.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

I have never had, to my knowledge, my luggage searched on Amtrak, nor have had sniffing dogs walked down the isle in my sleeper car.

I am not sure if I would object, but I am a grown adult, and understand there are always potential consequences for doing this.

 

[Sauve850]

Ive been thru Reno many times and seen the guys and dogs. Ive boarded in Reno for Chicago many times. I have gotten off in Reno from Chicago also. Single guy, one way ticket, small suitcase, cooler and backpack in a bedroom. Only once have I gotten a knock on the door. No dog just two officers. I understood the profile issue and wasn't going to rock the boat. I had no problem with them searching but asked one to stay and one to go find my SCA or Conductor. A call came over one of their radios and they were gone? This is not a moment or the type of thing I can control so as long as I had a witness Id have no problem with a search.

I don't have an answer if I was asked to get off the train nor what Amtrak would offer if anything. I wouldn't wait for next train and would just fly out as soon as possible to next destination, Chicago for me.

 

[I like rolling hotels]

This would be a horrible double bind because I have two reasons I'd decline consent for a search. One is that there are some pretty personal things among my prescriptions. The other is that the field test kits many agencies use are unreliable and have put people in jail for having baking soda, vitamins, cotton candy, or powdered milk. The powdered milk story is the worst: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...r-cocaine-turns-out-powdered-milk/3995201002/

 

[adamj023]

This would be a horrible double bind because I have two reasons I'd decline consent for a search. One is that there are some pretty personal things among my prescriptions. The other is that the field test kits many agencies use are unreliable and have put people in jail for having baking soda, vitamins, cotton candy, or powdered milk. The powdered milk story is the worst: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...r-cocaine-turns-out-powdered-milk/3995201002/

In this case perpetrator had prior criminal history as cops were aware of. They look for a combination of substances combined with suspicion. There is no empathy from me for the perpetrator in this case who caused the arrest himself and cops should be commended for doing their jobs. It is also questionable in my own mind if it was powered milk or not.

Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from cops.

 

[tricia]

Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from cops.

You apparently are living in a different world from the rest of us.

 

[RSG]

Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from cops.

The corollary to this is "If you haven't done anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about."

The problem with this logic is that it's not what you think you have done or not done, it's what someone else thinks you've done. Since no one can get inside someone else's head, you will have little knowledge of what they might be thinking. When this conundrum exists in the context of law enforcement, the situation can go downhill fast for the allegedly innocent person.

Even honest LEOs can get caught up in a false premise, and the cases of someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time are numerous. Add this to some old fashioned profiling and passengers are wise to be wary of any searches, even if done with the best of intentions.

 

[Skyline]

Yeah TSA seems the least invasive. For one, the tsa doesn’t question you, they just inspect your bag and your good to go.

Both the Amtrak police, and the police who questioned me on Jefferson lines were questioning why I was traveling, etc.

Amtrak police have been the worst in my experiences.

Some are good. Others are glorified rent-a-cops who wannabe real cops, with egos.

 

[blueman271]

Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from cops.

Tell that to Philando Castile, or Charles Kinsey, or Justine Diamond, or Botham Jean.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I don't think traveling in my own country, no matter how I bought the ticket (last minute), or the city pairs, should be cause enough to be questioned and have my luggage searched. That's just my opinion.

While I don't like the TSA... everyone has to go through the scanners and if the scanners tell the TSA agents to do a pat-down you have to get patted down. If your luggage gets flagged... your luggage gets searched. While ideally one could travel more freely... it's a more fair and balanced system than the "oh this city pair looks suspicious... better stop by his roomette" that I encountered.

Honestly... I wouldn't care if they just did a luggage search... it's the questioning that really annoyed me. It shouldn't be suspicious that I want to travel on a train in my own country (not to mention a particularly scenic train.. the Zephyr.)

 

[I like rolling hotels]

1. Has anyone ever been thrown off a train for saying "I respectfully decline consent" to a drug search?
2. If that is a thing that happens, how do you re-book travel if you're dropped in the middle of nowhere? I take the Empire Builder a lot and some of the stops are a long way from alternate transportation.