If our Masters, er the Government Doesn't require it on School BusesI am sure thankfully, FRA has no regulation disallowing standing passengers. Don't give them ideas. They could yet, in their infinite wisdom, require that all passengers be seated and belted in whenever the train is in motion.
it won't happen on Trains! (Is this wishful thinking :help: ??)Part of the charm of Japan, and one of the best ways to see rural Japan (ie, outside of the Tokyo-Osaka corridor) are the RDCs - which unlike the Shinkansen are cheap, and they don't blast by the scenery at a velocity that one can't see anything... and they go about everywhere. Lots of fun to take them - both to see the scenery and to simply get from location to location.That kind of looks like the Budd Cars we used to have out in Montana back in the day. Too bad they didn't work out, they provided an excellent service. Here is a Youtube of Budd Cars found by Bud Costello if memory serves. The Budd Car specific part starts at 3:45.
Oops. Link was missing.
This does occur on the most popular routes. I don't know if the FRA officialy allows it because there are no handlebars on most Amtrak railcars like there are on transit vehicles. Greyhound discreetly lets people stand on an overbooked bus, so Amtrak could do the same. Everybody intentionally overbooks by a set margin these days.While we're at this, and cracking jokes at me, which I dully take in
Now for something more serious.
Is it legal for Amtrak to overbook and make people stand if there is no seats? Esp since there are unreserved routes, like the Keystone on the HAR-PHL stretch. Obviously, it is in China and Indian, but it is in many countries in Europe (the mentioned Poland, Germany as well). If there is no room, you just stand. Would there be trouble and would AMTRAK be liable for something like that or not?
They sure are fun rides. Japan has lots of mountains, and it's great to go through the tress on a little narrow-gauge MU. Nothing like the Shinkansen.Part of the charm of Japan, and one of the best ways to see rural Japan (ie, outside of the Tokyo-Osaka corridor) are the RDCs - which unlike the Shinkansen are cheap, and they don't blast by the scenery at a velocity that one can't see anything... and they go about everywhere. Lots of fun to take them - both to see the scenery and to simply get from location to location.That kind of looks like the Budd Cars we used to have out in Montana back in the day. Too bad they didn't work out, they provided an excellent service. Here is a Youtube of Budd Cars found by Bud Costello if memory serves. The Budd Car specific part starts at 3:45.
Oops. Link was missing.
This does occur on the most popular routes. I don't know if the FRA officialy allows it because there are no handlebars on most Amtrak railcars like there are on transit vehicles. Greyhound discreetly lets people stand on an overbooked bus, so Amtrak could do the same. Everybody intentionally overbooks by a set margin these days.While we're at this, and cracking jokes at me, which I dully take in
Now for something more serious.
Is it legal for Amtrak to overbook and make people stand if there is no seats? Esp since there are unreserved routes, like the Keystone on the HAR-PHL stretch. Obviously, it is in China and Indian, but it is in many countries in Europe (the mentioned Poland, Germany as well). If there is no room, you just stand. Would there be trouble and would AMTRAK be liable for something like that or not?
Thanks for the reply. W/re my first (or, your) first point: my comment was trying to raise the question of: instead of looking at the short-term bottom line (max revenue at min cost), would not adding an extra car, at some marginal cost, not improved the "experience" of the passengers - yes at a cost - but possibly not also engender a greater number of return customers? My guess is (and sadly, not better than that), is that with a 9 car consist running 85%+ full, there is enough profit to add in another coach car, still keep the train profitable, not only for the short term, but possibly even more so for the long term. [my impression from two weeks ago on the CZ was that there were a lot of first-time passengers, but with the griping about everything being so crowded, I suspect many potential return customers were lost.]
The Japanese MUs/RDCs are probably my favorite "trains" to ride anywhere in the world. If a train ride is at least as much about the trip as the destination, these are some of the richest rides to be had anywhere. And as much as the Shinkansen is impressive at least the first time one rides any of them, over time my feeling is that they become boring - the MUs have never and I expect they will never as long as they exist - each ride is unique unto itself.They sure are fun rides. Japan has lots of mountains, and it's great to go through the tress on a little narrow-gauge MU. Nothing like the Shinkansen.Part of the charm of Japan, and one of the best ways to see rural Japan (ie, outside of the Tokyo-Osaka corridor) are the RDCs - which unlike the Shinkansen are cheap, and they don't blast by the scenery at a velocity that one can't see anything... and they go about everywhere. Lots of fun to take them - both to see the scenery and to simply get from location to location.That kind of looks like the Budd Cars we used to have out in Montana back in the day. Too bad they didn't work out, they provided an excellent service. Here is a Youtube of Budd Cars found by Bud Costello if memory serves. The Budd Car specific part starts at 3:45.
Oops. Link was missing.
This does occur on the most popular routes. I don't know if the FRA officialy allows it because there are no handlebars on most Amtrak railcars like there are on transit vehicles. Greyhound discreetly lets people stand on an overbooked bus, so Amtrak could do the same. Everybody intentionally overbooks by a set margin these days.While we're at this, and cracking jokes at me, which I dully take in
Now for something more serious.
Is it legal for Amtrak to overbook and make people stand if there is no seats? Esp since there are unreserved routes, like the Keystone on the HAR-PHL stretch. Obviously, it is in China and Indian, but it is in many countries in Europe (the mentioned Poland, Germany as well). If there is no room, you just stand. Would there be trouble and would AMTRAK be liable for something like that or not?
To bring this back on topic, how do those Japanese private railways make money with these MUs? They also need to buy new cars to replace the outdated old ones, so how do they do it?
Probably a bad business decision if only this quarter's profits are of concern - but every customer that is turned off, reduces the pool of potential customer for tomorrow, making it more difficult to generate positive profits for those quarters.... And although one buys "one coach seat" doesn't one also have access to the diner car, the café car, the lounge car (to see all the lizards) etc, ie, one is buying more than just a seat.... if one really wanted to maximize this quarter's profits, why not reduce the pitch btwn coach seats to something like the flying cattlecars - one should be able to double the number of fares per trip... at least for a very short time, no? No, I think Amtrak has been trying to dig its way out of a hole for multiple decades, it seems on the verge of making a real go of it, and I would like them to succeed, become part of the national conscious(ness) where "taking the train" doesn't raise eyebrows... so one does what they can to stay at least near profitable today, but working toward becoming more so in the future.
Why are they so expensive?
They're kinda like the interurbans. The US would have a lot of fun rides too if we still had all those interurbans. I like riding them too, I always do some routes when I visit Japan. It's nice to see private railways making money anyhow. The main JR companies always retire equipment really early, while these small companies have their cars soldier on.The Japanese MUs/RDCs are probably my favorite "trains" to ride anywhere in the world. If a train ride is at least as much about the trip as the destination, these are some of the richest rides to be had anywhere. And as much as the Shinkansen is impressive at least the first time one rides any of them, over time my feeling is that they become boring - the MUs have never and I expect they will never as long as they exist - each ride is unique unto itself.They sure are fun rides. Japan has lots of mountains, and it's great to go through the tress on a little narrow-gauge MU. Nothing like the Shinkansen.Part of the charm of Japan, and one of the best ways to see rural Japan (ie, outside of the Tokyo-Osaka corridor) are the RDCs - which unlike the Shinkansen are cheap, and they don't blast by the scenery at a velocity that one can't see anything... and they go about everywhere. Lots of fun to take them - both to see the scenery and to simply get from location to location.That kind of looks like the Budd Cars we used to have out in Montana back in the day. Too bad they didn't work out, they provided an excellent service. Here is a Youtube of Budd Cars found by Bud Costello if memory serves. The Budd Car specific part starts at 3:45.
Oops. Link was missing.
This does occur on the most popular routes. I don't know if the FRA officialy allows it because there are no handlebars on most Amtrak railcars like there are on transit vehicles. Greyhound discreetly lets people stand on an overbooked bus, so Amtrak could do the same. Everybody intentionally overbooks by a set margin these days.While we're at this, and cracking jokes at me, which I dully take in
Now for something more serious.
Is it legal for Amtrak to overbook and make people stand if there is no seats? Esp since there are unreserved routes, like the Keystone on the HAR-PHL stretch. Obviously, it is in China and Indian, but it is in many countries in Europe (the mentioned Poland, Germany as well). If there is no room, you just stand. Would there be trouble and would AMTRAK be liable for something like that or not?
To bring this back on topic, how do those Japanese private railways make money with these MUs? They also need to buy new cars to replace the outdated old ones, so how do they do it?
W/re the various private railways that run them making any money - my guess is they're using existing track, have little need to expand, ie, no billion dollar capital outlays; likewise, my impression is that many of the MUs are 30, 40 years old, and besides respecting them, they simply keep them running, ie, again, no major outlays for new units (so the costs are basically the driver and the fuel oil - and given the minimal fares, I'm sure they have those covered)... but again, at least for me, part of the charm of them, is in fact the lack of digital displays, and video this and video that etc. They're kind of like old air-cooled VWs - basic, get the job done, and with a hammer and an adjustable wrench one can fix most things that fails (not quite true... but clearly no multi-million dollar computer systems to diagnose problems).... a prime example of the KISS principle.
I don't know! I'm not a railcar designer, I'm not sure why, but consider that an airplane costs a LOT more. And even a new Greyhound buses costs close to $600,000 if they didn't have all those discount for mass-ordering.
I believe one of the differences btwn the JR companies and the MU companies has to do with purpose: the Shinkansen is at least as much about moving people as it is national pride and/or reputation - part of their rebuilding the country out of the ashes of WWII - thus part of their always looking over the shoulder at the other HSR systems of the world, and looking to better them - thus older equipment, maybe not capable of moving to the next speed level, or worse showing any wear, is retired. Conversely, the MU companies - they're purely about very basic transportation - where an "air cooled VW" works just fine, or maybe even optimally.They're kinda like the interurbans. The US would have a lot of fun rides too if we still had all those interurbans. I like riding them too, I always do some routes when I visit Japan. It's nice to see private railways making money anyhow. The main JR companies always retire equipment really early, while these small companies have their cars soldier on.The Japanese MUs/RDCs are probably my favorite "trains" to ride anywhere in the world. If a train ride is at least as much about the trip as the destination, these are some of the richest rides to be had anywhere. And as much as the Shinkansen is impressive at least the first time one rides any of them, over time my feeling is that they become boring - the MUs have never and I expect they will never as long as they exist - each ride is unique unto itself.They sure are fun rides. Japan has lots of mountains, and it's great to go through the tress on a little narrow-gauge MU. Nothing like the Shinkansen.Part of the charm of Japan, and one of the best ways to see rural Japan (ie, outside of the Tokyo-Osaka corridor) are the RDCs - which unlike the Shinkansen are cheap, and they don't blast by the scenery at a velocity that one can't see anything... and they go about everywhere. Lots of fun to take them - both to see the scenery and to simply get from location to location.That kind of looks like the Budd Cars we used to have out in Montana back in the day. Too bad they didn't work out, they provided an excellent service. Here is a Youtube of Budd Cars found by Bud Costello if memory serves. The Budd Car specific part starts at 3:45.
Oops. Link was missing.
This does occur on the most popular routes. I don't know if the FRA officialy allows it because there are no handlebars on most Amtrak railcars like there are on transit vehicles. Greyhound discreetly lets people stand on an overbooked bus, so Amtrak could do the same. Everybody intentionally overbooks by a set margin these days.While we're at this, and cracking jokes at me, which I dully take in
Now for something more serious.
Is it legal for Amtrak to overbook and make people stand if there is no seats? Esp since there are unreserved routes, like the Keystone on the HAR-PHL stretch. Obviously, it is in China and Indian, but it is in many countries in Europe (the mentioned Poland, Germany as well). If there is no room, you just stand. Would there be trouble and would AMTRAK be liable for something like that or not?
To bring this back on topic, how do those Japanese private railways make money with these MUs? They also need to buy new cars to replace the outdated old ones, so how do they do it?
W/re the various private railways that run them making any money - my guess is they're using existing track, have little need to expand, ie, no billion dollar capital outlays; likewise, my impression is that many of the MUs are 30, 40 years old, and besides respecting them, they simply keep them running, ie, again, no major outlays for new units (so the costs are basically the driver and the fuel oil - and given the minimal fares, I'm sure they have those covered)... but again, at least for me, part of the charm of them, is in fact the lack of digital displays, and video this and video that etc. They're kind of like old air-cooled VWs - basic, get the job done, and with a hammer and an adjustable wrench one can fix most things that fails (not quite true... but clearly no multi-million dollar computer systems to diagnose problems).... a prime example of the KISS principle.
I don't know! I'm not a railcar designer, I'm not sure why, but consider that an airplane costs a LOT more. And even a new Greyhound buses costs close to $600,000 if they didn't have all those discount for mass-ordering.
But they would cost about $4 million, that's what I do know.
Because those seats are designed for sleeping over the course of 2-3 days, hence the leg rest and foot rest. If they reduced the pitch to that of an airplane, nobody would be able to recline enough to sleep. Most nonstop domestic flights don't take longer than 7-8 hours.
I LOVE a good DMU!! They're perfect for serving areas with a population that doesn't merit a "full sized" train, but they're better in many was than a bus (not skidding off icy roads being one obvious advantage). If only the FRA could see that they are safely operated around the world, sharing lines with freight and heavier passenger rail with great safety records....While we're at this, and cracking jokes at me, which I dully take in
Yes, but to make my point - sometimes one has to worry about the bottom line of next year, this year... but if it was only this quarter's bottom line that mattered, then the pitch would be much smaller, and the passengers would be one and gone. [now if given the generous pitch btwn rows, if one could get the LD seats to recline just just a few more degrees ;-) ]
Hugely practical - absolutely... even in the case where they aren't even feeders to larger systems (a la hub and spokes per the airlines)... but like on Shikoku one has MUs that run back and forth from A to B to A to B to A to B... all day long, providing great service, and where roads would be too expensive to build, and/or the traffic would never justify such. ... and as the Mandarins become ripe and they go straight thru the orchards at a breakneck pace of 40-45kmh, they provide a moving Japanese painting rarely captured on canvas. One also finds delightful ones along the Sea of Japan side of Honshu, likewise at the north end of the island. Most of the MUs are ancient, and equally delightful.
An uncomfortable domestic flight will last, at most, eight hours. An uncomfortable cross-country rail trip will take three days, maybe longer (depending on delays). Many people are willing to tolerate being cooped up in an airliner for a few hours in order to enjoy more time at their destination. The same is not true of train (or even bus) travel.
Sounds like we'd both hugely appreciate it. My impression is that they currently only go back 10-15 degrees... a doubling of that would be a delight.
Given that this is a standard conversation topic in coach... wonder why the current "range" of declining was selected, and if the same seats couldn't be modified to buy a few more inches. And I agree, even if they went back another three or four inches there would be no interference with the passengers immediately behind.
I don't think I would ride an elevator for 14 hours unless there was a diner.
Isn't 14 hours about the time required or suggested to reach low earth orbit (a la the Space Elevator notion)? ... but on that trip I suspect one would like more than just a diner, either during or at the other end ;-)
