Removing Long Distance Trains North of NYP

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Philzy

Train Attendant
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Jan 6, 2009
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Philthadelphia
In another thread found HERE and HEREwe were discussing the effectiveness of operating a “Limited” service train and diners on a train. This got me thinking about the ineffectiveness of having the discharge/receive on long distance trains North of Washington DC.

Note: For those that do not know (mods correct me if I’m off here), long distance trains operating north of Washington DC and heading north may only drop off passengers and long distance trains heading south may only pick up passengers bound for points south of Washington DC. Basically, this is to keep all traffic that arriving and departing in/to points between Boston and Washington DC on the Northeast Regional (NER) & Acela trains. It’s to make the numbers “look good” or maybe even “profitable” for the NER.

I would love to see a fleet utilization grid for Amtrak and the train sets it uses on the long hauls, and the NER. I’m guessing that some serious tweaking could be done allowing for better utilization of equipment and cars.

An example which I think may have been mentioned before is to look at the schedule for routes like the Northbound (NB) Crescent #20 (a favorite route of mine), it’s arrival in NYP is mere 9 minutes before the departure of the Southbound (SB) Cresent #19. This means that instead of two train sets that they need 3 train sets. If the train on its current schedule was to terminate in Washington DC then one less train set would be needed. The northbound train could be cleaned and turned around to operate out the southbound train at 6pm. That frees up coaches, sleepers and those valuable Heritage Diners that are so hard to come by.

Considering that Amtrak’s equipment is so limited I’m sure a full train set that’s free for a whole day could be put to some good use (ahem, *cough*cough* daily Cardinal service *cough*). I’m also sure that there is probably more than one route that tweaking like this could be done to free up additional cars and crews.

What about stopping long distance trains in DC period? Ridership numbers on the NER would surely climb, which is good for that route. In addition, if you started from scratch and reworked the schedules of each route, you’d find that you could get a number of other free train sets to be used other places or maybe even new routes or restore service to some that have lost it or increase frequency on routes that need the capacity.

While I understand that it’s the general consensus that passengers would much rather be on one train than making a connection. Yet, no one seems to have a problem changing planes in an airport or waiting for 4 hours for their next flight. Need I mention that at a train station there is no security and you can go outside if you’re a smoker, or go shopping in the nearby areas?

I’m sure it’s been stated before but the more I look at it, requiring multiple near empty trains to continue north of DC and only discharge passengers and not receive is not a good utilization of the rail cars. It’s also a horrible misuse of the crewmembers working these trains! One would think that not having to staff a full train for an additional 4 hours each way (8 total) everyday for 30/31 days out of the month times 365 a year - that would save a serious amount of cash, yes no? Wouldn’t consolidating passenger travel to NER from long distance make more sense that operating half full to empty trains?

Thoughts, constructive ideas?
 
What about stopping long distance trains in DC period? Ridership numbers on the NER would surely climb, which is good for that route. In addition, if you started from scratch and reworked the schedules of each route, you’d find that you could get a number of other free train sets to be used other places or maybe even new routes or restore service to some that have lost it or increase frequency on routes that need the capacity.
While I understand that it’s the general consensus that passengers would much rather be on one train than making a connection. Yet, no one seems to have a problem changing planes in an airport or waiting for 4 hours for their next flight. Need I mention that at a train station there is no security and you can go outside if you’re a smoker, or go shopping in the nearby areas?
Connections kill travel.

The only reason people make connections at airports is because they are forced to--

Given two flights:

A: CAK-LAX, 1 stop in ATL; $120

B: CAK-LAX, nonstop; $160

B will be more frequently chosen, even though it costs more.
 
How would passengers in sleeper accommodations feel about getting kicked out of their rooms in DC and having to transfer to either Acela or Regional business class to finish their trip? Conversely, how would passengers from New York feel about a regional trip before they can get into their rooms in DC?

One can argue that providing sleeper accommodations isn't Amtrak's primary purpose. However, I think by axing long-distance trains on the corridor and their sleeper accommodations, you're creating a less desirable trip for passengers who can afford it.
 
I agree. Connections hurt ridership.

When the Cardinal had Superliners, it terminated at WAS (due to height restrictions at BAL & NYP). In WAS, passengers had a wealth of connections to go north. But when it went to single level Amfleets, it was extended to NYP. Ridership levels rose heavily.

The only difference - an option of a one seat ride to/from BAL, PHL and NYP to/from cities such as IND, CIN and CHW!
 
What about stopping long distance trains in DC period? Ridership numbers on the NER would surely climb, which is good for that route. In addition, if you started from scratch and reworked the schedules of each route, you’d find that you could get a number of other free train sets to be used other places or maybe even new routes or restore service to some that have lost it or increase frequency on routes that need the capacity.
While I understand that it’s the general consensus that passengers would much rather be on one train than making a connection. Yet, no one seems to have a problem changing planes in an airport or waiting for 4 hours for their next flight. Need I mention that at a train station there is no security and you can go outside if you’re a smoker, or go shopping in the nearby areas?
Connections kill travel.

The only reason people make connections at airports is because they are forced to--

Given two flights:

A: CAK-LAX, 1 stop in ATL; $120

B: CAK-LAX, nonstop; $160

B will be more frequently chosen, even though it costs more.
No, I disagree. Connections do not kill travel.

I worked in reservations, and made reservations at the ticket counter for years with the airlines. I would say only about 20-25% of people mainly those being business (obviously) would choose the nonstop. the checkbook (or in todays age the debit card) does all the talking.

Forced to make connections? um we have a limited number of equipment and trains to being with. 1 daily train to some areas. This might allow two daily frequencies meaning better connections? more choices?

How would passengers in sleeper accommodations feel about getting kicked out of their rooms in DC and having to transfer to either Acela or Regional business class to finish their trip? Conversely, how would passengers from New York feel about a regional trip before they can get into their rooms in DC?
One can argue that providing sleeper accommodations isn't Amtrak's primary purpose. However, I think by axing long-distance trains on the corridor and their sleeper accommodations, you're creating a less desirable trip for passengers who can afford it.
GREAT POINT - something that I had no thought of whatsoever.

How many people need a sleeper for a 4 hour journey in the afternoon? How about adding a sleeper for on some of these NER for these people? I mean if we're gonna free up equipment.

What about adding cars to NER trains that were desiganted to be pulled from the station at DC and connected with the outbound train allowing for "single" train service without ever having to leave the train car seat?

Great point though RTOlson, thats for pointing it out.
 
How would passengers in sleeper accommodations feel about getting kicked out of their rooms in DC and having to transfer to either Acela or Regional business class to finish their trip? Conversely, how would passengers from New York feel about a regional trip before they can get into their rooms in DC?
One can argue that providing sleeper accommodations isn't Amtrak's primary purpose. However, I think by axing long-distance trains on the corridor and their sleeper accommodations, you're creating a less desirable trip for passengers who can afford it.
Sleepers can also be profitable. Don't get me wrong, Amtrak will still loose money on the whole but a sold out sleeper will make several thousand more than a sold out coach.

(Unless they're all using AGR tickets)
 
How would passengers in sleeper accommodations feel about getting kicked out of their rooms in DC and having to transfer to either Acela or Regional business class to finish their trip? Conversely, how would passengers from New York feel about a regional trip before they can get into their rooms in DC?
One can argue that providing sleeper accommodations isn't Amtrak's primary purpose. However, I think by axing long-distance trains on the corridor and their sleeper accommodations, you're creating a less desirable trip for passengers who can afford it.
Sleepers can also be profitable. Don't get me wrong, Amtrak will still loose money on the whole but a sold out sleeper will make several thousand more than a sold out coach.

(Unless they're all using AGR tickets)
Hmm, point, so then will a sold out sleeper say cover the cost of the crew operating for the additional 4 hours or so to and from WAS-NYP?
 
How would passengers in sleeper accommodations feel about getting kicked out of their rooms in DC and having to transfer to either Acela or Regional business class to finish their trip? Conversely, how would passengers from New York feel about a regional trip before they can get into their rooms in DC?
One can argue that providing sleeper accommodations isn't Amtrak's primary purpose. However, I think by axing long-distance trains on the corridor and their sleeper accommodations, you're creating a less desirable trip for passengers who can afford it.
Sleepers can also be profitable. Don't get me wrong, Amtrak will still loose money on the whole but a sold out sleeper will make several thousand more than a sold out coach.

(Unless they're all using AGR tickets)
Hmm, point, so then will a sold out sleeper say cover the cost of the crew operating for the additional 4 hours or so to and from WAS-NYP?
No. Regionals loose money plain and simple. You'd need to raise sleeper prices to cover the cost of transfered pax, do that and you loose business, slippery slope.
 
Ivy City would have to be provided with materials necessary to service Viewliners. Shop employees would also have to be trained for that. Plus, the single level equipment is being wasted then because it is no longer needed (Superliners can clear the Capitol Hill Tunnel to get into WAS). Forcing pax onto the NER also means having to carry on baggage as far as WAS, which would be a hassle for a lot of people going on extended trips to Florida or wherever. Trip times would probably be lengthened to accommodate the connections, and first class pax north of WAS would not like having to wait to board their sleepers. This would be especially true for anyone coming from north of NYP because it would be a long trip in coach before they could board their sleepers. Coming from upstate New York would require 2 connection to get to the south. As ALC said, connections kill travel.
 
Connections kill travel.
Nonsense. Bad connections are the problem.
Minority opinion.
Lets see your proof then. You make out you know it all, prove it.

I wonder what a lot of those passengers in the lounge at Chicago are doing,changing from one train to the other? Hmmmm......
And I wonder how many would rather have not had to get off at all eh?

Common sense Neil, no need to argue when it comes up--
 
1) Passengers really, really hate layovers. In fact, according to a model the authors use, “the number of passengers on a direct flight would reduce by almost four-fifths when a layover is added to the route.”
The rest here...

And this...

In most cases, travelers still will be able to get from Point A to Point B, but they might have to take another carrier or connect through another airport, which means layovers and longer trips. That could be a hard sell for business travelers who rely on getting to their destinations at a certain time.
And here....
 
I'll weight in and say that yes, the more connections the more the hassle. A non-Amtrak instance is me thinking about taking the bus up to college. Every time I bring it up, the first question from my dad is "how many connections?" Especially if you force everyone to use Regionals up and down the NEC. In this case, you'll either have to carryon everything, or put baggage cars on more Regionals. Ok yes, you already don't have checked baggage from BOS to the LDs unless you wanted to take the LSL to Albany, then the LSL down to NYP, or or wait for 66/67 but guess what? You also don't have much BOS-LD traffic either.
 
Note: For those that do not know (mods correct me if I’m off here), long distance trains operating north of Washington DC and heading north may only drop off passengers and long distance trains heading south may only pick up passengers bound for points south of Washington DC. Basically, this is to keep all traffic that arriving and departing in/to points between Boston and Washington DC on the Northeast Regional (NER) & Acela trains. It’s to make the numbers “look good” or maybe even “profitable” for the NER.
That's done to keep passenger from booking a seat from say Philly to Baltimore on the Crescent in May for a departure in October, that results in turning away a passenger in September trying to go from NY to New Orleans, because the train has since sold out between PHL and BAL.

Yes, a side benefit is that it probably pumps up the numbers for the NER, but that is secondary.
 
As for forcing people to connect, the_traveler is correct. Ridership on the Cardinal soared when it went single level and was extended to NY.

Terminating all southern LD's in DC would hurt ridership and it would prevent Amtrak from charging an extra premium in all those sleepers that get sold north of DC.

Not to mention that it would overwhelm an already strained Ivy City yard, both for storage capacity of trains, but also for maintenance work. And it's not a matter of hiring more workers, it's a matter of space in the shops.
 
1) Passengers really, really hate layovers. In fact, according to a model the authors use, “the number of passengers on a direct flight would reduce by almost four-fifths when a layover is added to the route.”
The rest here...

And this...

In most cases, travelers still will be able to get from Point A to Point B, but they might have to take another carrier or connect through another airport, which means layovers and longer trips. That could be a hard sell for business travelers who rely on getting to their destinations at a certain time.
And here....
Ah. Airports and aircraft.....

What part of a train is that then?

Its a bit different changing planes, possibly terminals, as opposed to a decent cross platform connection were you know in advance that the train will be there.

Even I would be loathe to fly somewhere you can't fly direct to, too much chance of lost luggage and lost connections.

Changing trains? No bother.
 
1) Passengers really, really hate layovers. In fact, according to a model the authors use, “the number of passengers on a direct flight would reduce by almost four-fifths when a layover is added to the route.”
The rest here...

And this...

In most cases, travelers still will be able to get from Point A to Point B, but they might have to take another carrier or connect through another airport, which means layovers and longer trips. That could be a hard sell for business travelers who rely on getting to their destinations at a certain time.
And here....
Ah. Airports and aircraft.....

What part of a train is that then?

Its a bit different changing planes, possibly terminals, as opposed to a decent cross platform connection were you know in advance that the train will be there.

Even I would be loathe to fly somewhere you can't fly direct to, too much chance of lost luggage and lost connections.

Changing trains? No bother.
Bother:

No meals

No checked baggage

Smaller seats

No private quarters

Noisier environment

Movement of carry-on bags

Additional cost

Crowded lounges
 
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Bother:
No meals

No checked baggage

Smaller seats

No private quarters

Noisier environment

Movement of carry-on bags

Additional cost

Crowded lounges
Personal opinion lacking in facts. As usual.

Any Talgo "dud" overhaul info to share?! :lol:
 
Bother:
No meals

No checked baggage

Smaller seats

No private quarters

Noisier environment

Movement of carry-on bags

Additional cost

Crowded lounges
Personal opinion lacking in facts. As usual.

Any Talgo "dud" overhaul info to share?! :lol:
Actually I think most people would agree that's a hassle.

I'm sorry, didn't you once complain that Amtrak was on the Spartan side of transportation? Hm... well making this decision just sounds... like, O don't know.... a way to make things more Spartan.

As for personal opinions, take care about discounting them... you'll never know when yours won't matter.
 
And Neil, while you may not mind and I respect that (I personally don't care either), it is quite clear from the numbers that many passengers do mind. Again, ridership on the Cardinal went way up when it was extended to NY. I can't find the numbers anymore, but I seem to recall that they took close to a 30% jump, which for that rather slow, round about train, is very good.

Additionally look at the pricing on the Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited. The through cars are always more expensive than making the switch in San Antonio. Granted that's a horrible switch, since it's several hours on the ground and in the middle of the night. But again, the numbers are there.

Heck Amtrak even runs the Northeast Regionals from Richmond through, simply because passengers hate to switch. It would be far cheaper for Amtrak to stop swapping engines in DC, loop the train, and sent it back south. But they don't do that because it would hurt the ridership numbers big time.
 
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