Restoration of New Orleans - Mobile - Jacksonville Gulf Coast Service

[Qapla]

The connect from Lake City to Waldo goes through Baldwin - that is only a few miles west of JAX and CSX does not want regular passenger service on the line from Baldwin through Waldo to Orlando.

When the Auto Train had that derailment a while back, they did divert through Waldo - but only for a couple days.

The only switch north of Waldo is in Starke and it is no aligned for a Waldo-Lake City route. It is more for a Baldwin-Newberry route with no connection between Lake City and Newberry ... from what I can tell - and I live near Waldo

 

[jis]

Why go to JAX? Seems that it is not a great destination for passengers on the Gulf coast. It would be expensive but a divert at Lake City onto an abandonent route ( SOU RR ) to connect to CSX Wildwood track north of Waldo. How much time would that save? IMO this routing really serve central and Tampa south. There might a little effort to get to the west coast of Florida from St. Augustine to north of Palm Beach.

Why would one want to work so hard to avoid serving the largest city in Florida? Why would one go to St. Augustine, when there is a fine track from JAX to Orlando and Tampa? Seriously, absolutely no one will contemplate spending money to restore the abandoned trackage on that ex-Southern RoW for one or two trains a day.

 

[Qapla]

As a follow-up to an earlier post

Ah! But that is not now, nor has it ever been an Amtrak depot. (Referring to this post Lesser known Railroad Museums in small towns )

That depot was built around 1860 to serve the Florida Railroad, which reached Gainesville from Fernandina in 1859. Depot operations were moved to a new building where East University Avenue crossed the rail line in January, 1948. That depot ceased operation as a train depot and in 1988, the City of Gainesville (who owned the depot) deeded the building to the Santa Fe College Endowment Corporation. The Old Train Depot on N.W. 6th Street is presently part of the downtown campus of Santa Fe College

There are no longer any tracks running to that location. Likewise, the depot in the picture above also does not have any tracks. The tracks from Waldo to Gainesville were removed and the eastbound lanes of Hwy 24 now occupy that space.

So, when it comes to restoring service from NO to JAX and beyond, Gainesville is out of the picture unless new tracks are built - however, the Waldo station is still standing with double tracks and a ground level platform - just closed and disused.

And, in keeping with the idea of restoring service, here is a look at the old Amtrak Depot in Gainesville:



If you see the "sidewalk" between the street and the building - that was where the track used to run

In these videos, the first one is the back of the old depot and the second is the front. You can see where the tracks ran in front of the depot by the "sidewalk" - it is harder to tell, but there also used to be track behind the old depot, also.


View attachment 20221214_114414.mp4
View attachment 20221214_114751.mp4


So, since all the tracks in all directions are gone - some of them converted to "rails-to-trails" - getting the ROW back would be extremely slim (impossible). If it were even possible to restore train service to Gainesville, new ROW would have to be obtained and a new depot built ... the NIMBY's would not want that.

 

[George Harris]

According to Google Maps, it's about 400 miles via I-10 and takes 5:34 in a car. So I would imagine 6-6 1/2 hours in a bus. I guess it could be speeded up if they had the intermediate stops at travel plazas right off the interstate. Everybody drives everywhere anyway, so a stop by the highway might be just as convenient as having a stop in the downtowns, which slows the ride because the bus has to get off the highway and drive in local traffic at slow speeds with traffic lights in order to get to the downtown.

400 miles in 5:34 = 71.9 mph. I don't think so. Google maps gives ridiculously short driving times. I would say 6.5 to 7 hours would probably be more like it in a car with no stops. Bus time would be longer.
As an experience, Google gives 6 hours 24 minutes for the 419 mile drive from our house to our daughter's house, that is Olive Branch MS to Pensacola FL. This works out to 65.5 mph. If I were to calculate driving speed limits and no less from end to end, I would get more time than that. Actual drive time the last time we did it was nearer 8 hours, not including stops and with near no traffic delays, and that was driving speed limit (maybe some more, but I take 5th Amendment) wherever practical.

 

[DonNewcomb]

Here's a newspaper article touching on Gulf Coast & NOLA-Fla service.
https://www.sunherald.com/news/business/article270584112.html

 

[joelkfla]

Here's a newspaper article touching on Gulf Coast & NOLA-Fla service.
https://www.sunherald.com/news/business/article270584112.html

Seems to me that the reporter does not understand the map.

 

[jis]

Seems to me that the reporter does not understand the map.

Lots of wishful thinking. There appears to be an attempt to create the impression that somehow because it is just "suspended service" it will be easier to restore it than "new service". Never mind that in the same map the NOL - MOB service is shown as a new service and we already know how extremely easy it has been to restore that, what just like MOB - JAX was a "suspended service", which got transformed into "new service" leading to protracted bickering about it at the STB.

 

[DonNewcomb]

Lots of wishful thinking. There appears to be an attempt to create the impression that somehow because it is just "suspended service" it will be easier to restore it than "new service". Never mind that in the same map the NOL - MOB service is shown as a new service and we already know how extremely easy it has been to restore that, what just like MOB - JAX was a "suspended service", which got transformed into "new service" leading to protracted bickering about it at the STB.

There is a lot of wishful thinking. Most likely route from Mobile to Jacksonville would be via NOLA, Atlanta & Savannah but the article did have some quotes regarding P'cola.

 

[NativeSon5859]

I could see Pensacola being added fairly easily.

The question would be what CSX would demand in terms of upgrades on the Mobile-Flomaton portion, which is a highly used segment.

Flomaton-Pensacola however never seemed to be all that busy back in the SL days. What is it like today? They would need to give Amtrak permission to use the yard in PNS for overnight storage.

Overall, an extension to PNS seems at least in the realm of possibility, as opposed to the full extension to JAX.

 

[Anderson]

Lots of wishful thinking. There appears to be an attempt to create the impression that somehow because it is just "suspended service" it will be easier to restore it than "new service". Never mind that in the same map the NOL - MOB service is shown as a new service and we already know how extremely easy it has been to restore that, what just like MOB - JAX was a "suspended service", which got transformed into "new service" leading to protracted bickering about it at the STB.

To be fair, NOL-MOB is a new service. That being said, as far as I can tell, on the map if there's not a corridor in place (i.e. only LD trains), a route is treated as "new".

[What seems plausible is that CSX might opt to give the impression of being conciliatory at some point - but only towards a 3x/weekly train, not a daily one.]

 

[BlackDiamond]

I could see Pensacola being added fairly easily.

The question would be what CSX would demand in terms of upgrades on the Mobile-Flomaton portion, which is a highly used segment.

Flomaton-Pensacola however never seemed to be all that busy back in the SL days. What is it like today? They would need to give Amtrak permission to use the yard in PNS for overnight storage.

Overall, an extension to PNS seems at least in the realm of possibility, as opposed to the full extension to JAX.

That route via Flomaton seems fairly roundabout - not that there is any alternative given the presence of Mobile Bay. But not competitive with a drive on I-10. It would be more justifiable if one then extended to Tallahassee and JAX.

 

[jis]

I think Pensacola is specifically mentioned as Pensacola is where CSX ends and the Short line begins on the route to JAX. The Short Line trackage will require some significant safety and track standard upgrade work apparently before any respectable schedule can be envisaged on it. And that is a whole different can of worms, different from the attempts to extract usurious usage tax (in a manner of speaking) by the Class Is like CSX.

The trackage that would require considerable public funding to bring upto snuff is between Pensacola and Baldwin. Between Baldwin and JAX is again CSX.

 

[Anthony V]

I thought some of you would like to see the new signs and platforms going up in Bay St. Louis, Gulfport, Biloxi, and Pascagoula. I took these pics today. Sone are completely finished, some are almost finished.

It’s very exciting for me personally to see the Amtrak logo proudly displayed once again after 17 years in these communities.

Pascagoula still has an old Amtrak sign circa 1993 but I’m sure that’ll be gone soon.

Are these steel platforms just temporary ones or are they the way Amtrak plans to bring the stations up to ADA compliance?

 

[TWA904]

That route via Flomaton seems fairly roundabout - not that there is any alternative given the presence of Mobile Bay. But not competitive with a drive on I-10. It would be more justifiable if one then extended to Tallahassee and JAX.

They build about 20 miles of new track from the CSX line north of Bay Minette over to the short line track that runs from Atmore to Pensacola. Then they would need to upgrade that short line track. You would lose Atmore as a stop but that would cut out that Flomaton round about.

 

[DonNewcomb]

They build about 20 miles of new track from the CSX line north of Bay Minette over to the short line track that runs from Atmore to Pensacola. Then they would need to upgrade that short line track. You would lose Atmore as a stop but that would cut out that Flomaton round about.

While you're at it, build about 6 miles of track just north of I-10, connecting to the Escambia Bay bridge, move the P'cola station to the north part of town and suddenly the connection to Tallahassee and points east becomes possible.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Was there never a more direct rail route between Mobile and Pensacola?

 

[jiml]

It doesn't appear so - at least going back to the '50s. There's the L&N route via Flomaton and no idea if it connected to the ex-Frisco at Atmore. I have to wonder if a natural obstacle, such as swampy ground or hurricane risk, prevented something more direct. It would seem on the surface that something running in the I-10 ROW would work, although that can be a mess after some of the bad storms they get. (I've spent too much time vacationing in NW Florida over the years.)

 

[DonNewcomb]

Was there never a more direct rail route between Mobile and Pensacola?

It wasn't until 1941 that the Bankhead Tunnel made direct road connection across the Mobile River and Bay a reality. RR connections require a much shallower grade and, because Mobile is a seaport, requires the RR bride be many miles upstream. Geologically, Mobile bay is a graben but this isn't the big issue. The fact is that Mobile was built in the most likely place for a bridge but you'd have to level half the city for the ramp.

 

[DonNewcomb]

It doesn't appear so - at least going back to the '50s. There's the L&N route via Flomaton and no idea if it connected to the ex-Frisco at Atmore.

In the '50s when we'd take the train from P'cola to Chicago, 90% of the time we'd drive to Flomaton to catch the Humming Bird, rather than have to leave P'cola on the local at oh-dark-thirty. Yeah, connections to and from P'cola have always been bad.

 

[west point]

While you're at it, build about 6 miles of track just north of I-10, connecting to the Escambia Bay bridge, move the P'cola station to the north part of town and suddenly the connection to Tallahassee and points east becomes possible.

It is 113 rail miles betwee Bay Minettee and Milton Fl. Past running times were ~~ 4:00. But Air miles just under 50 miles. That would save 3 hours but completely misses Pensacola. And it is almost all swamp land. Maybe in next 50 years?

Bay Minettee ( L&N ) - Cantoment, fl ( Old Frisco route ) = 31 air miles.

Yes the I-10 north of Pensacola would be a great solution. Probably save an hour eliminating the curvy L&N tracks facing Escambia bay.S

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Bay Minettee ( L&N ) - Cantoment, fl ( Old Frisco route ) = 31 air miles.

I don't see any rail connecting these two without going through Atmore?

 

[danasgoodstuff]

https://history.amtrak.com/archives/i-sunset-limited-i-schedulethis timetable skips Flomaton and isn't so bad, nearly 4 hours Bay Minette to Crestview which is well east of Milton

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Looks like there were RR tracks running west/northwest out of Pensacola at one time but they didn't continue very far from OpenRailwayMap. Building new track on new ROW might be difficult - looks like farmland and forestry land/property? Don't know that area's geology on whether it's swampy or hilly but either would be costly and difficult.

 

[jis]

https://history.amtrak.com/archives/i-sunset-limited-i-schedulethis timetable skips Flomaton and isn't so bad, nearly 4 hours Bay Minette to Crestview which is well east of Milton

That is because going to Flomanton would have involved a somewhat inconvenient backup move on a CSX main line

AFAIK the only time Flomanton was served was when they ran a section of the Crescent down to Mobile

Incidentally an earlier thread has some relevant discussion about P'cola,

https://www.amtraktrains.com/thread...e-gulf-coast-service.78528/page-6#post-944987

 

[GDRRiley]

The Short Line trackage will require some significant safety and track standard upgrade work apparently before any respectable schedule can be envisaged on it. And that is a whole different can of worms, different from the attempts to extract usurious usage tax (in a manner of speaking) by the Class Is like CSX.

The trackage that would require considerable public funding to bring upto snuff is between Pensacola and Baldwin. Between Baldwin and JAX is again CSX.

the line needs PTC and likely an extension or island/islands of the existing CTC system westward.
my understanding is right now 1 though freight runs each day plus some local work so likely a few siding extensions but most focus being on rebuilding the line to class 4 track. I believe sections under CSX pre being sold were at 50mph
I'd expect ~300m for the ~400 miles of rebuilt track assuming no major bridges need replacement. PTC ~40m for the sections of the route which lacks it. The real pricey thing will be CTC and longer sidings or long bridge work (using UP numbers in California)