RFP issued for Amfleet I replacement

[jis]

Ahh, the "Trainset Concept with configuration flexibility ". I guess that is just as I described. A bunch of Siemen coaches with Siemens locomotives of various abilities.

That certainly is one very plausible and cost effective solution to what has been requested.

 

[Mailliw]

Ahh, the "Trainset Concept with configuration flexibility ". I guess that is just as I described. A bunch of Siemen coaches with Siemens locomotives of various abilities.

This would enable Amtrak to swap coaches or whole trainsets between the NEC and the National Network as needed.

 

[Andrew]

The slideset says delivery from 2025 to 2035, presumably for the entire 80+ trainsets. Assuming average 8 cars per trainset that would be 640+ cars plus possibly 160+ power heads, if the train sets consist of trailers with power heads top and tail. If they have power at one end and cab at the other, halve the power heads number and add in the same number of cab cars.

At least for the dual modes and diesels I would expect top and tail power, since doing a single unit over 4,500hp becomes more difficult and expensive. That would make it possible to repurpose the existing ACS64s as power heads in the new setup.

I would be really surprised, not unpleasantly, if they actually go for distributed power. So waiting with bated breath to see what comes out.

Does top and tail power mean that the Sprinter locomotives would stay on the trains that operate into diesel territory?

Also, I got the impression that Amtrak was looking into operating dual-mode Charger locomotives--instead of diesel locomotives operating together with electric Sprinters.

 

[frequentflyer]

This seems like Siemens to loose. Sadler is only there to extract a better deal from Siemens. Kind of like Southwest (largest Boeing 737 operator in the world) using Airbus to extract better pricing from Boeing.

 

[rickycourtney]

I might be missing something but where are you getting "multiple unit" from the slide?

So it would seem this is not a Siemens Viagaro coaches with Siemen locomotive units. This will be a true EMU/DMU set.

The exact quote from the slide is:

• Trainset Concept with configuration flexibility
  • Dual Mode (3rd Rail or Catenary with Diesel)
  • Diesel only
  • Electric only

When I wrote this morning, I assumed that meant "multiple units," but as I think more, I suppose that could also mean a trainset with power cars (like the Siemens trainsets for VIA or the Acela). Also, Siemens makes DMU/EMU trains for the European market, so while the US plant hasn't made them yet, they could.

3 years? The last order for the VIIs only took 10 years to get the cars into service, and they're still not being fully used, with some serving as a axle Count Cars and others being "Yard Queens!"

I'd say give it at least 5 years!

Not all manufacturers are as incompetent as CAF. To my knowledge, Siemens, Alstom, and Stadler are all delivering equipment on time and on budget at the moment.

 

[rickycourtney]

The slideset says delivery from 2025 to 2035, presumably for the entire 80+ trainsets. Assuming average 8 cars per trainset that would be 640+ cars plus possibly 160+ power heads, if the train sets consist of trailers with power heads top and tail. If they have power at one end and cab at the other, halve the power heads number and add in the same number of cab cars.

At least for the dual modes and diesels I would expect top and tail power, since doing a single unit over 4,500hp becomes more difficult and expensive. That would make it possible to repurpose the existing ACS64s as power heads in the new setup.

I would be really surprised, not unpleasantly, if they actually go for distributed power. So waiting with bated breath to see what comes out.

Spitballing here -- if they are going the power car+trainset route -- couldn't they attach an ACS-64 to one end and a Charger to the other? The benefit is you lose the power changeover delay. The downside is you're hauling a very heavy dead locomotive to use it as a cab car.

 

[jis]

Spitballing here -- if they are going the power car+trainset route -- couldn't they attach an ACS-64 to one end and a Charger to the other? The benefit is you lose the power changeover delay. The downside is you're hauling a very heavy dead locomotive to use it as a cab car.

It does open up many possibilities. Though for dual mode operation it is best to have dual mode locos. More power spread over more axles in all modes. Better operating characteristics.

 

[Acela150]

I do have to say that if they go with the EMU trainset option that's a waste of millions of dollars that they spent on the sprinters. But that's my two cents.

 

[MARC Rider]

I do have to say that if they go with the EMU trainset option that's a waste of millions of dollars that they spent on the sprinters. But that's my two cents.

They'd still be using the Sprinters for the Washington-New York portion of the Silver Service, the Crescent, and the Palmetto. Plus, if it's EMU's, all the Virginia trains and Vermonter and Pennsylvanian would still need Sprinters for the part of the trip run under catenary.

 

[Andrew]

They'd still be using the Sprinters for the Washington-New York portion of the Silver Service, the Crescent, and the Palmetto. Plus, if it's EMU's, all the Virginia trains and Vermonter and Pennsylvanian would still need Sprinters for the part of the trip run under catenary.

The Virginia trains are supposed to be powered by dual-mode equipment.

Also, perhaps Amtrak could sell unused Sprinters to both MBTA and NJ Transit?

 

[frequentflyer]

Amtrak could do what their airline counter parts do, negotiate a trade in on a newer product. Amtrak did that with the EMD SDP40s back in the 70s when they were traded in on brand new F40s that were made using some of the trade in SDP40s. The Sprinter is a Vectron in a different body, pretty sure Siemen could place the 50 or so Sprinters in customer hands somewhere in the world or use the motors in a newer product.

 

[Andrew]

The exact quote from the slide is:

• Trainset Concept with configuration flexibility
  • Dual Mode (3rd Rail or Catenary with Diesel)
  • Diesel only
  • Electric only

When I wrote this morning, I assumed that meant "multiple units," but as I think more, I suppose that could also mean a trainset with power cars (like the Siemens trainsets for VIA or the Acela). Also, Siemens makes DMU/EMU trains for the European market, so while the US plant hasn't made them yet, they could.

Not all manufacturers are as incompetent as CAF. To my knowledge, Siemens, Alstom, and Stadler are all delivering equipment on time and on budget at the moment.

If Amtrak picks Alstom, which "family" of trains would be best?

 

[rickycourtney]

If Amtrak picks Alstom, which "family" of trains would be best?

The Avelia family would be the most obvious choice since it’s already been adapted to the US market.

If they’re really dedicated to a MU trainset, I could see them presenting a variant of the Coradia or even the X’Trapolis... although that would be a very different train design for the US market.

 

[Andrew]

The Avelia family would be the most obvious choice since it’s already been adapted to the US market.

If they’re really dedicated to a MU trainset, I could see them presenting a variant of the Coradia or even the X’Trapolis... although that would be a very different train design for the US market.

OK, that makes sense.

I still believe that there is a possibility that Amtrak will decide on a split order of a trainset. (For example, what works for the Downeaster may not work for dual-mode Regional trains).

 

[adamj023]

Can the original acela trainsets still be used once all the Avelia are in? You would think at some point they could use them again as they are still very modern by Amtrak standards and could see usage on other routes or used as the base cars on the northeast regional trains. They used the metroliner cars for a long time even after Metroliner service was phased out.

 

[jiml]

Can the original acela trainsets still be used once all the Avelia are in? You would think at some point they could use them again as they are still very modern by Amtrak standards and could see usage on other routes or used as the base cars on the northeast regional trains. They used the metroliner cars for a long time even after Metroliner service was phased out.

There were prior posts in this thread referring to expiring leases and maintenance issues.

 

[Trogdor]

There were prior posts in this thread referring to expiring leases and maintenance issues.

In addition, the Acela trainsets cannot serve any station that does not have a high-level platform, as they do not have traps/internal stairs on them.

The Metroliner cars were, essentially, Amfleet cars (give or take a few minor differences) and thus could be intermixed with other trains (and towards the end of its life, didn’t the Metroliner service mostly use regular Amfleet cars anyway?).

 

[Andrew]

Are there any benefits to operating Charger diesel locomotives with Sprinter locomotives for true "dual-mode" service?

 

[Andrew]

The slideset says delivery from 2025 to 2035, presumably for the entire 80+ trainsets. Assuming average 8 cars per trainset that would be 640+ cars plus possibly 160+ power heads, if the train sets consist of trailers with power heads top and tail. If they have power at one end and cab at the other, halve the power heads number and add in the same number of cab cars.

At least for the dual modes and diesels I would expect top and tail power, since doing a single unit over 4,500hp becomes more difficult and expensive. That would make it possible to repurpose the existing ACS64s as power heads in the new setup.

I would be really surprised, not unpleasantly, if they actually go for distributed power. So waiting with bated breath to see what comes out.

They'd still be using the Sprinters for the Washington-New York portion of the Silver Service, the Crescent, and the Palmetto. Plus, if it's EMU's, all the Virginia trains and Vermonter and Pennsylvanian would still need Sprinters for the part of the trip run under catenary.

Jis, are you implying Amtrak order bi-mode equipment with two dual-mode locomotives instead of just one? (This is what LIRR service does on the Port Washington Branch sometimes to Penn Station).

 

[adamj023]

Amtrak has stated that it wanted dual mode equipment so it didn’t have to swap out locomotives. Any train route that uses diesel and electric will certainly have the right equipment for the task. With that being said, hopefully more electrification will take place as well.

 

[railiner]

Jis, are you implying Amtrak order bi-mode equipment with two dual-mode locomotives instead of just one? (This is what LIRR service does on the Port Washington Branch sometimes to Penn Station).

I think you mean the Port Jefferson branch...the Port Washington is all electrified....

 

[adamj023]

Port Washington line is indeed all electrified and uses M7 and M9 electric trainsets. Not sure if M3 are still used. It is getting new concrete ties. Port Jefferson line uses the diesel locomotives and LIRR has replacement orders for those. They have diesel-electric and dual-mode locomotives.

 

[Andrew]

The slideset says delivery from 2025 to 2035, presumably for the entire 80+ trainsets. Assuming average 8 cars per trainset that would be 640+ cars plus possibly 160+ power heads, if the train sets consist of trailers with power heads top and tail. If they have power at one end and cab at the other, halve the power heads number and add in the same number of cab cars.

At least for the dual modes and diesels I would expect top and tail power, since doing a single unit over 4,500hp becomes more difficult and expensive. That would make it possible to repurpose the existing ACS64s as power heads in the new setup.

I would be really surprised, not unpleasantly, if they actually go for distributed power. So waiting with bated breath to see what comes out.

Are there any benefits to operating Charger diesel locomotives with Sprinter locomotives for true "dual-mode" service?

Are you saying that top and tail power would be used for a train's entire journey, such as Boston to Newport News, with both locomotives operating in electric mode on the NEC?

 

[Mailliw]

And the winner is Siemens !

 

[rickycourtney]

Full announcement:
https://media.amtrak.com/2021/04/amtrak-announces-siemens-as-preferred-bidder-for-new-equipment/

After a competitive procurement launched in January of 2019, Amtrak has identified California-based Siemens Mobility Inc. (Siemens) as the preferred bidder to manufacture a new fleet of 83 Intercity Trainsets (ICTs), which will provide dual power in many instances and modern rail amenities to better serve all Amtrak customers. The ICTs will operate on the Northeast Corridor, Palmetto and various state-supported routes and will replace the current Amfleet I, Metroliner cab and Cascades service fleets. Accompanying the contract to manufacture the trainsets will be a long-term service agreement for technical support, spares and material supply.

“This new state-of-the-art equipment will not only provide Amtrak customers with an enjoyable and efficient travel experience, it will also enable us to improve safety, increase passenger capacity and reduce carbon emissions,” said Amtrak CEO Bill Flynn.

Amtrak has targeted summer 2021 for contract execution and notice to proceed and will spend the time between now and then continuing negotiations with Siemens for this generational procurement.