RFP issued for Amfleet I replacement

[jis]

The PRIIA single level cars are speced for floor height of 51" above top of rail.

 

[Eric S]

Quite a bit more detail here (Amtrak's fleet modernization plan includes historic firsts - Runway Girl) than we've seen so far. Just staring to read through it again myself, but if true, I'm more than a little surprised about the locomotive plans...

 

[chrsjrcj]

Quite a bit more detail here (Amtrak's fleet modernization plan includes historic firsts - Runway Girl) than we've seen so far. Just staring to read through it again myself, but if true, I'm more than a little surprised about the locomotive plans...

Was just about to hit "post" when you posted that.

Some more (slightly horrifying) details here:

*The battery-hybrid locomotive will have a separate trailer car for the battery. Why not just use the already existing 3rd rail?
*The relatively new ACS-64 Sprinters will be sold off except for a few to support the long distance trains. Why not use DEMUs and EMUs for the NE Regionals then?
*New "contemporary" food options.

Makes the Viewliner IIs look like a good investment in hindsight. Maybe Amtrak shouldn't be given so much extra cash?

 

[frequentflyer]

I can think of three transit agencies in the North East area that are blowing up Amtrak's email and text right about now to get first in line on some "good" condition (using NADA/Kelly Bluebook terminology) used Sprinters.

Makes since the Sprinters go, the word "trainsets" should have been a clue.

 

[jadebenn]

Yeah, more than a bit hesitant to hear they're planning to replace much of their electric fleet with dual-mode. If it works, sure, but I can't help but fear they'll be very maintenance-intensive compared to the ACS-64s.

Slightly related: I wonder if these locomotives have any commonality with the ones Brightline West plans to use? We've got a render of a Charger-esque locomotive (I used to think it was a cab car) from them, the system is supposed to be electrified, and Brightline is responsible for the existence of the Siemens Venture cars in the first place, so they clearly enjoy a close working relationship.

EDIT: Er, actually, disregard. On second thought, the Brightline West trainset looks like a Velaro D (ICE 3) trainset.

 

[Andrew]

I can think of three transit agencies in the North East area that are blowing up Amtrak's email and text right about now to get first in line on some "good" condition (using NADA/Kelly Bluebook terminology) used Sprinters.

Makes since the Sprinters go, the word "trainsets" should have been a clue.

Which 3 transit agencies are you referring to?

 

[cocojacoby]

Which 3 transit agencies are you referring to?

The MBTA for one is saying that electrification is in their future plans.

 

[Tlcooper44]

The MBTA for one is saying that electrification is in their future plans.

MBTA is a possible destination of sprinters, especially since it will take decades to electrify the entire fleet/tracks.

They have, however, already toured the Stadler facility, and have plans to follow in the footsteps of Caltrain. I spoke briefly with a representative from Stadler who said the MBTA really wants to get it right and only do it once. In fact, I think a prototype is about to run on the providence line tracks within 4 years.

I applaud them for their care with the decision, but it’s far too long to wait.

In terms of the article above, I’m also concerned about some aspects of these new trains. Seems like Amtrak can always find a way to mess things up. I’ll say positive for now though.

 

[Andrew]

MBTA is a possible destination of sprinters, especially since it will take decades to electrify the entire fleet/tracks.

They however, have already toured the Stadler facility, and have plans to follow in the footsteps of Caltrain. I spoke briefly with a representative from Stadler who said the MBTA really wants to get it right and only do it once. In fact, I think a prototype is about to run on the providence line tracks within 4 years.

I applaud them for their care with the decision, but it’s far too long to wait.

In terms of the article above, I’m also concerned about some aspects of these new trains. Seems like Amtrak can always find a way to mess things up. I’ll say positive for now though.

So maybe Amtrak can sell their Sprinter locomotives to NJ Transit?

And Amtrak can improve their fleet utilization if both their Regional and Keystone trains are 7 cars long.

I also wonder what Stadler's bid was for Amtrak.

 

[Intercity]

*The relatively new ACS-64 Sprinters will be sold off except for a few to support the long distance trains. Why not use DEMUs and EMUs for the NE Regionals then?

This feels backwards to me. Wouldn’t it make more sense to keep the Sprinters on the Regionals and pair one of the new Bi-mode Chargers with a standard Charger on the LDs so that an engine change isn’t needed?

 

[MARC Rider]

This feels backwards to me. Wouldn’t it make more sense to keep the Sprinters on the Regionals and pair one of the new Bi-mode Chargers with a standard Charger on the LDs so that an engine change isn’t needed?

No, because then the bi-modal loco is running for 2 days down in diesel-land where bimodals aren't needed and is not available for use up where it's needed. A speedy pass through Washington really isn't as necessary for the long-distance trains, anyway. Passengers who are OK with a 24 hour ride from the NEC to Miami aren't going to care as much about a 20-30 minute stop to change engines as regional passengers who want to get from, say, Baltimore to Richmond.

 

[frequentflyer]

Which 3 transit agencies are you referring to?

The two in the NYC area and in Maryland. But even if that is not the case Siemens can take the units back as trade ins. I am pretty sure the Sprinter question came up on the Zoom call between Siemens and Amtrak. EMD did it for Amtrak when it traded some of its SDP40s in and parts were used for the first batches of F40s. There is nothing special about the Sprinters, they are based off a locomotive running across Europe.

Amtrak plans to have NEC trains runoff the corridor in much greater numbers than today. Washington DC and NYC will just be stations on a longer schedule and not the end point. As been stated here in other posts, due to FRA regulations, the good old days of doing an engine change in less than 15 minutes are gone. No doubt Seimens looked at Amtrak specs, and said, " yeah, we can do that". Looking at Europe, Siemens have shown they can design good equipment, apparently Amtrak agrees.

 

[west point]

If present dining and other set ups have more passengers short using sleepers catering at WASH may become a must Then you will have longer stops at WASH.

 

[jis]

If present dining and other set ups have more passengers short using sleepers catering at WASH may become a must Then you will have longer stops at WASH.

I don't think one requires more than the current 30mins stops at WAS to load some extra food.

So maybe Amtrak can sell their Sprinter locomotives to NJ Transit?

NJ Transit does not need any more electric locos for a long time to come. They are in the process of acquiring mutli-level power cars to convert quite a bit of their multi-level fleet into EMUs. So no, NJT is not a potential customer.

 

[Ryan]

When I last discussed it with someone in a position to know (which has been a few years, as the conversation then was about joining the in-progress Amtrak order), MARC was profoundly disinterested in further investments in new electric motors, since they would remain captive to the Penn Line. Perhaps with a few more years of run time on the MP-36 fleet and the introduction of Chargers complete, that view has evolved. They have continued to put money into the maintenance and operation of the hippos, so perhaps there would be some new interest there...

 

[jis]

When I last discussed it with someone in a position to know (which has been a few years, as the conversation then was about joining the in-progress Amtrak order), MARC was profoundly disinterested in further investments in new electric motors, since they would remain captive to the Penn Line. Perhaps with a few more years of run time on the MP-36 fleet and the introduction of Chargers complete, that view has evolved. They have continued to put money into the maintenance and operation of the hippos, so perhaps there would be some new interest there...

Or they could go for the dual modes which would work all across their system. NJT seems to have shunned ordering any more pure diesels altogether and ordered a second tranche of dual modes instead.

 

[Andrew]

Does anyone know if Stadler bid on the new Amfleet trainset contract, and if so, would they have made an appropriate choice over Siemens?

Also, who were the other bidders on this contract?

 

[frequentflyer]

I am sure Stadler did bid on the contract, they have a facility in Utah to build the equipment. There is a video of then CEO Anderson wanting to talk them after the seminar, so I am sure they were in on the bid.

 

[DCAKen]

When I last discussed it with someone in a position to know (which has been a few years, as the conversation then was about joining the in-progress Amtrak order), MARC was profoundly disinterested in further investments in new electric motors, since they would remain captive to the Penn Line. Perhaps with a few more years of run time on the MP-36 fleet and the introduction of Chargers complete, that view has evolved. They have continued to put money into the maintenance and operation of the hippos, so perhaps there would be some new interest there...

Part of the agreement for rebuilding the Baltimore tunnel is that MARC will be required to electrify its trains by 2032
https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/06/18/amtrak-maryland-baltimore-rail-tunnel/

 

[Ryan]

Oh, good catch. I recall reading that but clearly hadn't internalized it yet. It seems as though surplus ACS-64's with some good life left in them will be a good fit.

 

[MARC Rider]

When I last discussed it with someone in a position to know (which has been a few years, as the conversation then was about joining the in-progress Amtrak order), MARC was profoundly disinterested in further investments in new electric motors, since they would remain captive to the Penn Line. Perhaps with a few more years of run time on the MP-36 fleet and the introduction of Chargers complete, that view has evolved. They have continued to put money into the maintenance and operation of the hippos, so perhaps there would be some new interest there...

Are the proposals for through-running of MARC trains into VRE-land and VRE trains into MARC-ville still being considered? If so, there might be some interest in getting dual-mode locomotives.

 

[Andrew]

I am sure Stadler did bid on the contract, they have a facility in Utah to build the equipment. There is a video of then CEO Anderson wanting to talk them after the seminar, so I am sure they were in on the bid.

Can you post a link to the video?

 

[frequentflyer]

Can you post a link to the video?

Its actually on this site somewhere. Anderson went to a California rail meeting where he first brought up the subject of DMUs. Stadler was of course in attendance and he can be seen and heard mentioning Stadler and he wanted to talk them after the meeting.

 

[cocojacoby]

The PRIIA single level cars are speced for floor height of 51" above top of rail.

Can anyone explain why the required car floor height is 51" and the platform height is 48"? Since there will be gap fillers I assume the difference is no way related to portable ADA ramp design. Is it weather related (i.e., rain will not enter) or something else? 3 inches seems a little much and a possible tripping hazard. Why not both at 48" or 51"?

 

[MikefromCrete]

Its actually on this site somewhere. Anderson went to a California rail meeting where he first brought up the subject of DMUs. Stadler was of course in attendance and he can be seen and heard mentioning Stadler and he wanted to talk them after the meeting.

There always seem to be a lot of interest in Stadler obtaining various Amtrak contracts. I suppose they would be more competent than CAF, but are they some kind of supersensational builder? What's their claim to fame? Or is somebody here a big investor in Stadler?