RFP issued for Amfleet I replacement

[west point]

It might be the best once enough EMUs delivered is to operate them EMU on the electrified portion and just couple a diesel with compatible HEP for trains outside electrified territory ? That would speed up some for southbound trains at WASH and much faster for northbound trains as engineer could board EMU and once diesel departs stat his updating of the EMU with various procedures required ?

This procedure as well at New Haven and NYP for any thru trains for Albany.

 

[jis]

Why not simply order EDMUs instead? The rest of the world is using them quite successfully.

Actually depending on planned usage the order could be for a mix of EMUs and EDMUs like has been done in the UK for instance.

 

[philabos]

Good point. The U.K. Equipment can run electric and then switch over to diesel on non electrified portions.
Would they meet FRA crash standards though?
Seem to run fine along with freight in the UK.

 

[jis]

There is nothing UK specific about the EDMU technology. They could as easily be hosted on a Viaggio or similar US certified platform. Stadler has them available on US certified platform already, though has not been ordered by anyone in US yet, to my knowledge.

 

[JustOnce]

Since everything becomes DC on the main link, the frequency thing only affects the transformer as does the HV input voltage The backend drive control remains the same no matter how many different input profiles you throw at it. Indeed DC input is the biggest pain to deal with unless it is at the link voltage.

I agree. Really it's a matter of designing the transformer big enough for 25 Hz* (and European systems go as low as 16.7 Hz) and having an 11/12 kV tap and a 25 kV tap with an auto tap changer. The input inverters will handle any voltage discrepancy between 11 kV PRR and 12.5 kV MetroNorth.



*=low frequency AC means larger transformers but smaller electric motors when "universal" motors were used. Universal motors were essentially DC motors (brushes and commutators) and lower frequencies eased commutator arcing.

 

[west point]

The Amtrak PRR CAT voltage is now 12 Kv nominal +/- 10% . Has been since the 1980s when they went from 11.5 Kv.

 

[drdumont]

Maybe it is covered elsewhere, but this is a long thread. Was I wrong in assuming the NEC is AC, and when NJT updated the Morristown lines, did it not convert to AC at that time?

 

[jis]

Maybe it is covered elsewhere, but this is a long thread. Was I wrong in assuming the NEC is AC, and when NJT updated the Morristown lines, did it not convert to AC at that time?

Both are AC but of different flavors.

NEC South is 12kV 25Hz.

NJT is 25kV 60Hz. (both Morristown and Gladstone Lines and Coast Line South of Matawan to Long Branch)

For the sake of completeness...

MNRR (New Haven Line) is 12.5kV 60Hz. (including Amtrak Hell Gate Line to Gate interlocking)

NEC North (New Haven to Boston) is 25kV 60Hz.

 

[drdumont]

Thanks for clearing the fog from my harbor, JIS!
Didn't know they were still using 25 cycle power.
Again, Thanks!

 

[Andrew]

I wonder if Amtrak would just one company, such as Siemens, for the new passenger coaches coupled with electric locomotives and Dual-Powered Integrated Train-sets manufactured by another company, such as Hitachi?

Or it would make more financial sense for Amtrak to go with one manufacture for the entire Amfleet replacement?

 

[Ryan]

NEC North (New Haven to Boston) is 25V 60Hz.

25kV, right?

 

[jis]

25kV, right?

Right. Corrected. Thanks.

 

[JustOnce]

Both are AC but of different flavors.

NEC South is 12kV 25Hz.

NJT is 25kV 60Hz. (both Morristown and Gladstone Lines and Coast Line South of South Amboy to Long Branch)

For the sake of completeness...

MNRR (New Haven Line) is 12.5kV 60Hz. (including Amtrak Hell Gate Line to Gate interlocking)

NEC North (New Haven to Boston) is 25kV 60Hz.

NJT switches to 25kV/60Hz at Matawan. I believe they were able to extend to Matawan off the original grid ending at South Amboy.

 

[jis]

NJT switches to 25kV/60Hz at Matawan. I believe they were able to extend to Matawan off the original grid ending at South Amboy.

You are correct the changeover is just south of Matawan. Corrected. Thanks.

 

[frequentflyer]

Anderson's latest appearance before congress committee he touched on the Amfleet replacement, and it seems Amtrak is going EMU/DMU for replacements. Hitachi 802? Or maybe Siemens if they have a product.

 

[PerRock]

Almost everyone that makes trains makes an EMU/DMU... and often a couple different ones depending on the need. It'll go thru a bidding process, but my guess is that it'll end up being either Alstom or Siemens.

peter

 

[rickycourtney]

The Amfleet replacement RFP said that Amtrak was open to complete trainsets, self-propelled multiple units, or individual railcars.

The more recent "Equipment Asset Line Plan" even included this fun graphic:

If they go the DMU route, the only US compliant equipment currently being produced are the Stadler FLIRT, Stadler GTW and the Nippon Sharyo DMU.

Honestly, I don't think Amtrak is going to go the DMU/EMU route. They just spent 466 million dollars purchasing 70 Siemens Sprinter electric locomotives and they are about to spend 850 million dollars to purchase 75 Siemens Charger diesel locomotives.

I think there will be a lot of companies pitching the contract.

Depending on how the RFP is written, Siemens may have an edge over everyone else. They are currently building single-level railcars for the US market and having a proven track record with a proven product is often heavily weighted. Siemens has also shown that they are willing to build the equipment as complete trainsets or as individual railcars, and with locomotives on either end or with a cab car.

That said, if it's a large enough order, any company could afford to do a clean sheet design, or adapt a foreign design to the US standards.

 

[frequentflyer]

The Amfleet replacement RFP said that Amtrak was open to complete trainsets, self-propelled multiple units, or individual railcars.

The more recent "Equipment Asset Line Plan" even included this fun graphic:
View attachment 16193
If they go the DMU route, the only US compliant equipment currently being produced are the Stadler FLIRT, Stadler GTW and the Nippon Sharyo DMU.

Honestly, I don't think Amtrak is going to go the DMU/EMU route. They just spent 466 million dollars purchasing 70 Siemens Sprinter electric locomotives and they are about to spend 850 million dollars to purchase 75 Siemens Charger diesel locomotives.

I think there will be a lot of companies pitching the contract.

Depending on how the RFP is written, Siemens may have an edge over everyone else. They are currently building single-level railcars for the US market and having a proven track record with a proven product is often heavily weighted. Siemens has also shown that they are willing to build the equipment as complete trainsets or as individual railcars, and with locomotives on either end or with a cab car.

That said, if it's a large enough order, any company could afford to do a clean sheet design, or adapt a foreign design to the US standards.

The Charger purchases were to replace Genesis which are mostly LD, so that means nothing in this decision. The Sprinters are just a version of the Vectron sold worldwide. By the time the EMUs are delivered the Sprinters will be 5-7 years old and snapped up by Septa, NJT,MART, etc.

 

[frequentflyer]

Start at 2:18

 

[rickycourtney]

Here's a transcript of Anderson's statement:

Congressman thank you for your remarks, we're in the midst of the largest re-fleeting in Amtrak's history. So, part of what we've been trying to do is conserve our cash. And our balance sheet now. We just got an investment grade upgrade, because we bought the new locomotives for the National Network, the Siemens Charger locomotives which will ensure that the long-distance network and the National Network has a really good locomotive fleet. So, that was number one.

Number two is the newest Acela trainsets, 29 of them, will start delivering in 2021, they're being made in New York.

Number three, we have got to replace the Amfleet I fleet, which is the Northeast Regional fleet. In the quarter, it has to be replaced. It's going to reach the end of its life.

We have, you know, we get some criticism for holding cash on our balance sheet, but we're holding that cash cause we need to spend, probably about $2 billion, to re-fleet the Northeast Corridor, and the state-supported network.

We aren't going to ask our state partners to help fund that, we want to fund it directly from Amtrak, but it's probably the most critical thing we need to do in the Corridor, is replace the Amfleet I's and Amfleet II's. I think that order, and the tough thing is there's just not that many people who make this equipment, but we should have that order placed in the next six months.

And we hope to go to modern unit trains, much like Europe. You know, where you have basically, you don't need a cab car or a cafe car in the corridor, it will be much like the Acela, in the Regional fleet.

Then our goal is, once we do that, is to have more stops on the corridor and connect more cities up and down the corridor and have the flexibility with a lighter weight, less expensive, more energy-efficient, less emission trainset, to be able to do the expansion that the national network really needs. And we have all those locations identified where corridor service with a modern trainset could be very effective and help us grow Amtrak, grow Amtrak jobs and serve the American public more effectively.

So yes, he could be describing self-propelled multiple units (DMU or EMU), but he could also be describing complete locomotive-hauled trainsets.

An example would be the ÖBB/ČD Railjet which is a series of Siemens Viaggo Comfort cars, coupled together as a married trainset. They are hauled by a Siemens EuroSprinter locomotive and they do have a cab car. Same design as new VIA trainsets, similar to the Brightline trainsets (Brightline uses 2 locomotives instead of a cab car) and the new California trainsets.

 

[NeueAmtrakCalifornia]

The Amfleet replacement RFP said that Amtrak was open to complete trainsets, self-propelled multiple units, or individual railcars.

The more recent "Equipment Asset Line Plan" even included this fun graphic:
View attachment 16193
If they go the DMU route, the only US compliant equipment currently being produced are the Stadler FLIRT, Stadler GTW and the Nippon Sharyo DMU.

Honestly, I don't think Amtrak is going to go the DMU/EMU route. They just spent 466 million dollars purchasing 70 Siemens Sprinter electric locomotives and they are about to spend 850 million dollars to purchase 75 Siemens Charger diesel locomotives.

I think there will be a lot of companies pitching the contract.

Depending on how the RFP is written, Siemens may have an edge over everyone else. They are currently building single-level railcars for the US market and having a proven track record with a proven product is often heavily weighted. Siemens has also shown that they are willing to build the equipment as complete trainsets or as individual railcars, and with locomotives on either end or with a cab car.

That said, if it's a large enough order, any company could afford to do a clean sheet design, or adapt a foreign design to the US standards.

The best choice for Amtrak in this situation is going to be EDMUs (Amtrak needs to also solve the engine switch problem). There will ultimately be two contenders (Stadler and Hitachi Rail), though I think Hitachi's A-Train might win out over Stadler's FLIRT because the A-Train is not articulated (makes maintenancr easier). Perhaps this design would be called the Cityliner.
Of course this would supplant many ACS-64s but they can find new life with MBTA and SEPTA

 

[chrsjrcj]

The ACS-64s will still have some use with the 3.5 long distance trains that use the Corridor, plus maybe the Palmetto and Carolinian too (if they're not replaced by new DMUs).

I wonder if a EDMU makes sense for trains like the Palmetto and Carolinian?

 

[NeueAmtrakCalifornia]

The ACS-64s will still have some use with the 3.5 long distance trains that use the Corridor, plus maybe the Palmetto and Carolinian too (if they're not replaced by new DMUs).

I wonder if a EDMU makes sense for trains like the Palmetto and Carolinian?

Has Amtrak looked at using DMUs for those two? If so then they can just use the Cityliners (perhaps they can make the lead cars incorporate a baggage component)

 

[rickycourtney]

What is the life-cycle cost of a dual-mode multiple unit trainset compared to a locomotive-hauled trainset?

Right off the top of my head, I can think of a few problems with a DMMU/EDMU...

They are far more complex with electric and diesel equipment squeezed into the car body envelope.
They must weigh a lot more than a regular trainset or a pure EMU or DMU.
If one of the engines goes down, which seems common with Amtrak's maintenance practices, the whole trainset is out of service.
Engines need regular overhauls, so when the car is in the shop, it's out of service, even if it's possible to just swap out the engine.
​

So with all of that in mind, what is the benefit of a DMMU/EDMU versus a Railjet/Brightline style locomotive-hauled trainset?

 

[NeueAmtrakCalifornia]

What is the life-cycle cost of a dual-mode multiple unit trainset compared to a locomotive-hauled trainset?

Right off the top of my head, I can think of a few problems with a DMMU/EDMU...

They are far more complex with electric and diesel equipment squeezed into the car body envelope.
They must weigh a lot more than a regular trainset or a pure EMU or DMU.
If one of the engines goes down, which seems common with Amtrak's maintenance practices, the whole trainset is out of service.
Engines need regular overhauls, so when the car is in the shop, it's out of service, even if it's possible to just swap out the engine.
​

So with all of that in mind, what is the benefit of a DMMU/EDMU versus a Railjet/Brightline style locomotive-hauled trainset?

Multiple units offer better acceleration and traction (and also place less wear and tear on the tracks) compared to traditional locomotive-hauled trains. This makes sense for the Northeast Regional due to the many stops it makes.

If diesels would make things too complex then Amtrak can replace the diesel with battery (which can be charged by the overhead wires) and it would be an EBMU

Also, Amtrak has looked into using EDMUs for several of its NEC trains (they also looked into using the ALP45-DP electro-diesel locomotive but concluded that it's too slow and heavy).

Alon Levy explains EMUs vs locomotives better