RFP issued for Amfleet I replacement

[Acela150]

Ok.... Back on topic here.. Any news on the RFP?

 

[NSC1109]

Ok.... Back on topic here.. Any news on the RFP?

No



Seriously, no news. NGEC didn’t have a meeting in August. Or at least the minutes aren’t online.

 

[Acela150]

No



Seriously, no news. NGEC didn’t have a meeting in August. Or at least the minutes aren’t online.

I've been keeping an eye out on their website for the minutes. They have been getting really sloppy with the timing of posting the monthly minutes. They used to be posted a few days into the new month. It's the 17th and still nothing has been posted for August.

 

[nullptr]

I've been keeping an eye out on their website for the minutes. They have been getting really sloppy with the timing of posting the monthly minutes. They used to be posted a few days into the new month. It's the 17th and still nothing has been posted for August.

Agreed. And they were fairly late last month too, if I remember correctly.

But I don't expect the news of the selection to be broken by these minutes. I'm guessing there will be a press release from Amtrak and then they'll be in the minutes for the following month.

 

[NSC1109]

Agreed. And they were fairly late last month too, if I remember correctly.

But I don't expect the news of the selection to be broken by these minutes. I'm guessing there will be a press release from Amtrak and then they'll be in the minutes for the following month.

If the decision was made already and they’re included in the meeting minutes, then there’s a good chance the file is sequestered until Amtrak puts out their press release.

 

[Andrew]

Does anyone know what products Alstom and Stadler have that could replace the Amfleets?

 

[jiml]

Does anyone know what products Alstom and Stadler have that could replace the Amfleets?

If for no other reason than fleet commonality, why wouldn't they look at the Siemens Venture coaches already rolling off the line?

 

[cocojacoby]

I really want to see one of these attached to a Viewliner and see how the profiles math up.

 

[jiml]

I really want to see one of these attached to a Viewliner and see how the profiles math up.

I've had the same thought. I guess the ideal thing would be to look for a Midwest train with a baggage car, if there is one in the current schedule.

 

[sttom]

Does anyone know what products Alstom and Stadler have that could replace the Amfleets?

Based on their current product lines,

Alstom seems to have put their eggs entirely in the EMU basket so an order for individual cars doesn't seem likely.

Stadler has built individual cars and probably would if asked, but they are also very big on in the multiple unit market as well. I would bank on Stadler being more open to building individual cars since they have made them recently.

My money would be on Siemens getting the contract should Amtrak go with individual cars and/or train sets of semi permanently coupled cars. Seeing as how they have an active orders and a reasonably proven product in the US.

 

[PVD]

I was under the impression that this acquisition offered the opportunity to propose a mix of solutions, and did not have to be all or nothing. Is that incorrect?

 

[jis]

I was under the impression that this acquisition offered the opportunity to propose a mix of solutions, and did not have to be all or nothing. Is that incorrect?

Mixed in the sense of a mix of trailers and D/EMUs still stands. It is the vendors that were supposed to propose solutions to meet whatever requirements they were given to fulfill. We won;t know until a vendor and their solution is selected.

 

[Gemuser]

Stadler has built individual cars and probably would if asked, but they are also very big on in the multiple unit market as well. I would bank on Stadler being more open to building individual cars since they have made them recently.

While Stadler's current offerings run heavely to EMU/DMU trains they have a section on their web site that says they will build any "cumstomised' train carrage you want. Obversiously the kicker here is the price, custom anything tends to be more expensive.

Of Stadler's normal product line the very multi capable FLIRT series would seem to suit at least some of Amtrak's requirement. With a seperate "power" carrage within the train they can offer O/H electric AC 25KV/50/60 Hz, 15k/11kV 16.66 Hz, DC 3,000/1,500V, third rail DC electric from 500 to 1200V [minimum] desiel and multi mode electric/desial. I don't know the maximum power of the desiel engines they can take.

I could see FLIRTS handling the Empire corridor with ease [& even through running with LIRR, if that actually happens as both under & over running third rail shoes could be fitted to the power module] as well as most of the NEC to unelectrified duties.

Slightly off topic: I recently saw a video on the "River Line" in NJ. That certainly look like a straight desiel FLIR, was it?

 

[PVD]

Stadler GTW on the River Line....NYS seems to like DM locomotive hauled, that will certainly influence the Empire Service part of this,,,,

 

[Andrew]

Why not use some Venture Coaches for the trains powered by electric locomotives and the Stadler Flirt for trains that operate to Richmond?

 

[PVD]

Because it might make sense?

 

[jiml]

Stadler FLIRT trainsets would be ideal for the Empire Corridor, as would the Seimens DMU sets such as those VIA is purchasing for their corridor. You're looking at operations that are mostly standardized with train lengths that seldom change. If more capacity is required for peak periods (Thanksgiving?) just lash two sets together "Euro-style". Yes, Amtrak would lose the flexibility of rotating the coaches elsewhere in the system, but on balance does it really matter? Precedent was set with the Rohr Turbos years ago. An added bonus with a Seimens Empire order would be the ability to have sets serviced overnight by VIA should the Maple Leaf and Adirondack ever be restored.

 

[PVD]

It matters what NYS wants, states don't have to use AMTRAK owned equipt, they can buy their own. AMTRAK may be the operator, and may provide maintenance, but the Midwest and California just made major coach and power purchases, returning equipt to AMTRAK that they previously used.

 

[jis]

It matters what NYS wants, states don't have to use AMTRAK owned equipt, they can buy their own. AMTRAK may be the operator, and may provide maintenance, but the Midwest and California just made major coach and power purchases, returning equipt to AMTRAK that they previously used.

To achieve any of that NYSDOT Empire Corridor management group will need to be staffed at a level greater than two or three where it has hovered for decades. They barely have enough staff to get the basic contracts written and then supervised, forget about buying and managing their own equipment.

 

[Mailliw]

Stadler FLIRT trainsets would be ideal for the Empire Corridor, as would the Seimens DMU sets such as those VIA is purchasing for their corridor. You're looking at operations that are mostly standardized with train lengths that seldom change. If more capacity is required for peak periods (Thanksgiving?) just lash two sets together "Euro-style". Yes, Amtrak would lose the flexibility of rotating the coaches elsewhere in the system, but on balance does it really matter? Precedent was set with the Rohr Turbos years ago. An added bonus with a Seimens Empire order would be the ability to have sets serviced overnight by VIA should the Maple Leaf and Adirondack ever be restored.

VIA isn't buying DMUs, at least not for the Corridor; they're buying the same Siemens Venture coachs as Brighline and Amtrak California/Midwest are.

 

[sttom]

I highly doubt Amtrak would want a split order between any two companies. Siemens is the most likely winner of a bid (barring lowest bidder rules and other shenanigans) since they can make individual cars, semi permanently coupled cars, multiple units and dual mode engines if need be. Stadler could make some dual mode FLIRTs, individual cars and engines, but I would worry about them having the capacity to build the order in a reasonable amount of time. They are a smaller manufacturer in the US compared to Siemens and an Amfleet replacement would be their biggest US order.

I'm not too worried about the cost of the cars though. The Viewliner 2 and California 3 cars had a per car cost of ~$3 million when adjusted for inflation and the cars sleeper cars Stadler built recently cost between $3-$4 million USD. And look where the Viewliner 2 and Cal 3 cars are, years late due to a number of issues, but partially down to the old adage of "you get what you pay for". Or who knows, maybe CAF will swoop in with incredibly cheap cars we will get in 20 years.

 

[NSC1109]

I highly doubt Amtrak would want a split order between any two companies. Siemens is the most likely winner of a bid (barring lowest bidder rules and other shenanigans) since they can make individual cars, semi permanently coupled cars, multiple units and dual mode engines if need be. Stadler could make some dual mode FLIRTs, individual cars and engines, but I would worry about them having the capacity to build the order in a reasonable amount of time. They are a smaller manufacturer in the US compared to Siemens and an Amfleet replacement would be their biggest US order.

I'm not too worried about the cost of the cars though. The Viewliner 2 and California 3 cars had a per car cost of ~$3 million when adjusted for inflation and the cars sleeper cars Stadler built recently cost between $3-$4 million USD. And look where the Viewliner 2 and Cal 3 cars are, years late due to a number of issues, but partially down to the old adage of "you get what you pay for". Or who knows, maybe CAF will swoop in with incredibly cheap cars we will get in 20 years.

I am almost certain it will be Siemens, and not just for the versatility of their product line. Having an all-Siemens fleet would VASTLY improve fleet standardization and would reduce costs. Any agreement would most likely include a TSSSA clause ensuring that Siemens will help with fleet upkeep and repairs.

Additionally, a standardized fleet will reduce training time and costs for your crews as well as increase fleet flexibility. IF it’s done right.

 

[Andrew]

I highly doubt Amtrak would want a split order between any two companies. Siemens is the most likely winner of a bid (barring lowest bidder rules and other shenanigans) since they can make individual cars, semi permanently coupled cars, multiple units and dual mode engines if need be. Stadler could make some dual mode FLIRTs, individual cars and engines, but I would worry about them having the capacity to build the order in a reasonable amount of time. They are a smaller manufacturer in the US compared to Siemens and an Amfleet replacement would be their biggest US order.

I'm not too worried about the cost of the cars though. The Viewliner 2 and California 3 cars had a per car cost of ~$3 million when adjusted for inflation and the cars sleeper cars Stadler built recently cost between $3-$4 million USD. And look where the Viewliner 2 and Cal 3 cars are, years late due to a number of issues, but partially down to the old adage of "you get what you pay for". Or who knows, maybe CAF will swoop in with incredibly cheap cars we will get in 20 years.

What about having Amtrak order mostly Venture coaches and the Stadler SMILE train for Keystone and Regional trains that only operate on electric power?

Will Covid end up postponing a new order of trains for several years?

 

[sttom]

What about having Amtrak order mostly Venture coaches and the Stadler SMILE train for Keystone and Regional trains that only operate on electric power?

Siemens has a line of multiple units so there wouldn't be a reason to split the order unless Congress for some reason thought maintain competition for rail equipment was a high priority. Which has a probability of near 0 because if they cared about such things, they would have made sure there was a constant supply of passenger equipment being built like we do with buses. Which would have meant more funding more consistently for passenger trains, which there isn't in this country. We basically do non car transportation in fits and starts every 15 years or so.

And since both Siemens and Stadler can build cars, multiple units and a variety of engines, it is likely that the contract would go to one company. Again barring any shenanigans that might arise. The only reason that I can see a split order happening is if Amtrak wants both cars and multiple units and Siemens doesn't have the capacity to build a Desiro variant or wants to get one certified for use in the US at this time. But if we are talking an order of at most 1000 cars and whatever number of trainsets that Amtrak wants for the NEC, I doubt they would say no to part of the contract, unless there was some sort of capacity issue or some sort of stupid political reason.

 

[PVD]

Another common reason to split orders is to facilitate faster delivery. Companies have limits on how many cars they can build in given period of time. If they are near or at capacity adding additional production may be costly, if at all possible. Supply chain limitations may also apply. NY MTA has done it with buses with orders split between New Flyer and NovaBus allowing them to shave quite a bit of time to delivery completion.